My ZSS - have I improved?

[sasook]

Well, I was told I'm allowed to make a new topic for critique videos, so here's my ZSS. Feel free to flame/comment/critique (I won't take offense if you tell me I suck):

New:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-xmfvlBwqQ - Link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cx8JUBLwwrw - DDD


Old:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o74IdSVxMDI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwJ2O9fo1Zc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VR9ppwVcK3c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzK4CFwja1U

These are about 2 months old, but I haven't improved much since (only thing I've improved on is momentum canceling).

 

[ph00tbag]

Don't grab so much. It's really punishable, and is much better for meting out heavy punishment on characters you have grab infinites on, mostly out of stuns. Otherwise, it's not even really that useful. Instead, avoid using it for a match or so, and your opponent will begin to get lax on his shield pressure, and then you can begin to do proper shield grabs.

Use the Flip Jump sex kick less often as an approach, and definitely avoid using it as a recovery. Sometimes it can surprise your opponent in both cases, but it has to be a surprise. If you do it all the time, people will punish you for it. Instead, use either the flipstool, or just use the Flip Jump to auto-sweetspot the ledge. This would have helped you against the Falco.

Go into training mode as Samus, and transform into ZSS. Play around with the suit pieces until they disappear, transform back into Samus and repeat. In this way, you can figure out the mechanics of the pieces. Try various glidetosses and see how they interact with the stage. Try this on several stages. Experiment. Once you know how your pieces work, they're less likely to be used against you. Note especially that just about every member of the cast can pick up suit pieces left directly on the ledge with a ledge-hopped aerial. Space your drops accordingly.

Use less fsmash (maybe don't use it at all), and be more cautious about using dair.

Don't be afraid to use more Plasma Whip, especially when your opponent is not on the ground.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

You should use more lasers. When you have diddy's naners dont just throw it at him. You have one of the best glide tosses in the game. Use it for mindgames, or if u dont want to you can glidetoss it into him for a guaranteed double dsmash, but make sure to not make it look obvious or he will use barrel cancel.

Your recovery needs work. dont use down B so much. down b is a last resort in terms of recovery if your opponent edgehogs you. dont ever use the kick unless your 100% sure it will hit (due to your opponent doing some laggy move or attempt to smash you when u come back) otherwise, use the footstool, it does wonders.

Dont use your grab just to grab. zss doesnt work like that. her grab is like a double edge sword. it's not always the BEST option to use it as a shield grab when you are not sure if you are actually gonna grab the opponent because it's laggy and it just doesnt come out as fast as other grabs. one thing I hate about her grab is that sometimes you cant even grab small characters when they slightly move their head down in their idle animation but it has long range so it's good for things like ike's fair and other spacing attacks. but when you grab you have to be 100% sure it's gonna connect. what you DONT wanna do is just charge at them and grab, BAD IDEA.

If you feel that you could do something else instead of grab(like dtilt) it's best to use that instead. dtilt has great mindgame capability because you can follow up with a ground move if they airdodge because most ppl expect zss to uair/fair them. You wanna use your grab after stuns because it's usually guaranteed. if you wanna go advanced you can use mindgames like dthrow then making them think your gonna uair then they dodge then you pivot grab.

P.S - Phoot your sig is awesome.

 

[Chaco]

Dont use your grab just to grab. zss doesnt work like that. her grab is like a double edge sword. it's not always the BEST option to use it as a shield grab when you are not sure if you are actually gonna grab the opponent because it's laggy and it just doesnt come out as fast as other grabs. one thing I hate about her grab is that sometimes you cant even grab small characters when they slightly move their head down in their idle animation but it has long range so it's good for things like ike's fair and other spacing attacks. but when you grab you have to be 100% sure it's gonna connect. what you DONT wanna do is just charge at them and grab, BAD IDEA.

Also adding to that, if your gonna grab, retreat and pivot. Most cases they will fall for it a few times. But don't overuse it, or you'll give up your edge. ZSS has an amazing pivot grab, because it's hard to be sure how to space it.

 

[sasook]

So less grabbing, more lasers, more plasma wires, and less flip kicks? I'll keep those in mind. Also, why is the flip a bad move for recovery? I thought it's good because of the footstool it has (I know in the vids I often used the kick rather than the footstool...I uh...have no excuse for that, it's just me being stupid).

Is there a thread that is good for developing a suit parts game? I struggle in that area greatly (they're often used against me). What am I supposed to be looking for when testing out characteristics of each part on different stages? What characteristics am I even supposed to be looking for? As far as I know, the arm does the most damage, and....that's it.

Practice aiming/timing/spacing my glide tosses is a given.

Work on my OOS game - this will hopefully not be too much of a problem because of my main. What do you recommend OOS? Dtilt and jabs? I'm not a fan of the horizontal range of the utilt.

Don't always follow dtilts with uairs or fairs? Interesting, I always thought those were givens on what a player SHOULD do. Seems I was greatly mistaken.

I know I have to work on my spacing with bair and shorthops in general.

Also, for some reason, I can never get the second hit of fair to connect :/

Anything else I should work on?

 

[koka]

Not bad, I'll try giving you some tips to start off with.

So less grabbing, more lasers, more plasma wires, and less flip kicks? I'll keep those in mind. Also, why is the flip a bad move for recovery? I thought it's good because of the footstool it has (I know in the vids I often used the kick rather than the footstool...I uh...have no excuse for that, it's just me being stupid).

If you time your grabs they can be extremely useful, but don't just throw them out. Forward smash is also a bad idea, try to avoid using it. The footstool is really useful, but the kick can be easily punished so try to avoid using it on-stage. Instead, try recovering with your up B or plasma whip, and if you do use it then try going for the flipstool. Don't linger on your whip for too long because certain characters can easily spike you, and use the invincibility you get from it to your advantage to gimp other characters. (Wait, now that I think about it, do you even get invincibility? I don't really remember ever being hit when I'm pulling myself up.)

Is there a thread that is good for developing a suit parts game? I struggle in that area greatly (they're often used against me). What am I supposed to be looking for when testing out characteristics of each part on different stages? What characteristics am I even supposed to be looking for? As far as I know, the arm does the most damage, and....that's it.

Phoot's idea's a good start if you're feeling uncomfortable with the pieces, and after you've gotten used to them the best thing would just be to practice against real people. Glide tossing is easy to get a hang of, you just need to find a way to trick your opponents into your pieces. A lot of the people I face try spot/air dodging them when they're attempting to approach, so you can predict that and punish. Throwing your pieces below you is a good deterent, and sometimes it's easier to throw a few pieces off so you can handle them better.

Work on my OOS game - this will hopefully not be too much of a problem because of my main. What do you recommend OOS? Dtilt and jabs? I'm not a fan of the horizontal range of the utilt.

Don't overuse your utilt, mix it up. I also saw that you were using it when your opponents were out of range.

After you've improved, send in more videos so we can give you some better tips. This is what's worked for me against some players that I've played, but I'm not really the best person to take advice from. I've still gotta improve my own ZSS before I can matchup to some of the players on here. Good luck.

 

[Adapt]

So less grabbing, more lasers, more plasma wires, and less flip kicks? I'll keep those in mind. Also, why is the flip a bad move for recovery? I thought it's good because of the footstool it has (I know in the vids I often used the kick rather than the footstool...I uh...have no excuse for that, it's just me being stupid).

Is there a thread that is good for developing a suit parts game? I struggle in that area greatly (they're often used against me). What am I supposed to be looking for when testing out characteristics of each part on different stages? What characteristics am I even supposed to be looking for? As far as I know, the arm does the most damage, and....that's it.

Practice aiming/timing/spacing my glide tosses is a given.

Work on my OOS game - this will hopefully not be too much of a problem because of my main. What do you recommend OOS? Dtilt and jabs? I'm not a fan of the horizontal range of the utilt.

Don't always follow dtilts with uairs or fairs? Interesting, I always thought those were givens on what a player SHOULD do. Seems I was greatly mistaken.

I know I have to work on my spacing with bair and shorthops in general.

Also, for some reason, I can never get the second hit of fair to connect :/

Anything else I should work on?

- Flipjump is good for recovery, but it's best used as a last resort because it has a predictable trajectory. I think he meant don't use it on stage so much
- I listed a whole bunch of armor piece shenanigans in this thread here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206384
- You shouldn't "always" do anything.... mix things up and keep people guessing. Sometimes instead of a uair or fair, dash over and up-smash/up-b after a dtilt
- utilt, air, jab, u-smash and occasionally bair are all pretty good oos

 

[ph00tbag]

Another really fun suit piece trick is SH item drop OOS. IMO, it's the best thing to do oos if you're holding onto a piece.

 

[sasook]

I see, thanks everyone, I'll try and work on this stuff. The only thing has improved so far is my DI (mostly because of my main), but I'll definitely practice and try and get some more matches up after a while.

(Wait, now that I think about it, do you even get invincibility? I don't really remember ever being hit when I'm pulling myself up.)

Finally, finally I can contribute and say something useful. You don't get invincibility frames when pulling yourself in, but you do get them when you grab the ledge. Luckily, ZSS's retract to the ledge is really REALLY fast.

Edit: Wow Adapt, that's some pretty awesome info on the suit parts game. I never even knew about JC (well, I knew what it was, but never thought to apply it) and its uses with ZSS. And retreating dthrow glidetosses, another thing I completely missed. Thanks so much!

 

[Bouse]

Edit: Wow Adapt, that's some pretty awesome info on the suit parts game. I never even knew about JC (well, I knew what it was, but never thought to apply it) and its uses with ZSS. And retreating dthrow glidetosses, another thing I completely missed. Thanks so much!

Sasook, you're a Link main...


Are you telling me you don't know how to Jump-Cancel your bomb tosses?

Don't make me tell Arkive!

 

[sasook]

Bouse, I'm a bombslider, remember? I don't use JC bombthrows at all. Arkive knows already lol

 

[koka]

Finally, finally I can contribute and say something useful. You don't get invincibility frames when pulling yourself in, but you do get them when you grab the ledge. Luckily, ZSS's retract to the ledge is really REALLY fast.

Yikes, guess I've gotta start looking out for that, thanks.

 

[Bouse]

Bouse, I'm a bombslider, remember? I don't use JC bombthrows at all. Arkive knows already lol

Use both you nutjob.

 

[sasook]

Bump. New video.

 

[V1RU5]

First off I see that you often contribute and help people a lot on these forums so I'll give your video some extra attention.

I'm not really going to analyze your "improvement" per say but instead give an analysis of the video posted. You definately improved, however, I believe there is still much more improvement you can make to your current game.

General Advice
Starting Armor Pieces - You def can get some better use out of your armor pieces in the beginning of the match. I would recommend rereading Adapts post on armor piece shenanigans. Granted this match is only one example of your current armor piece strategy, but you could def benefit from using techniques such as glide tossing to tilts, glide tossing to short hopped forward-b, glide toss throw down to create a "wall" effect with the bouncing piece. Up throwing an armor piece on the edge of the stage also provides a similar "wall" effect that helps against a majority of recovering characters.

Your Approach - I think you need to reevalute your approach in general. In this match specifically you were punished a few times on running in and attempting a grab. A very risky approach due to the lag on the move missing. Start using more SH Forward B, Retreating SH Forward B, Retreating SHFF Nair (Mind Games), Stun Gun -> Dash Attack ->( Dtilt/Utilt) -> (Uair/Up a/etc), stun gun -> grab -> down throw -> (etc), and stun gun -> F-throw -> F-throw @ low percentages. Fixing your approach will astronomically improve your game.

New Video Specific
0:12 - Glide Toss Forward throw would be more effective here. Could then regrab piece to "wall" edge guard and in general would gain more control of the match.

0:25 - Shield (hehe )

1:00 - Ouch Ouch Ouch.. Missed a perfect opportunity. I'm guessing you were caught off guard by down-a landing and hurriedly tried to do something. Against a character with such projectile spamability as link you really need to capitilize on those down-a's. There are many better things you could have done all which I'm sure you know already .

1:22 - Don't know why you were spamming down-a there. Side-B would def be more effective or perhaps Stun Gun for mind games.

1:30 - May want to stall the ledge instead of standing close to the edge. He punished you pretty quickly coming off his ridiculous death. Specifically a death like that your gonna wanna stay a lil safer. Especially when you know he will be "running and gunning" because he is naturally ticked off by what just happened.

1:50 - Yay! Gotta always love that!

2:15 - So fun when that works too eh?

I hope I was able to help out a little bit. If you have any questions on what I posted I'd be more then happy to help.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

For starters, you definitely want to stop with the down b as an attack on stage. It's very visible and very counterable. All you did up-close was jab. There's other options.

The worst fault I see here is that you werent really paying attention to what your opponent does, more as you were just doing attacks hoping they would hit. Therefore you got hit by attacks that could've been avoided if you watched what they did and reacted.

P.S - I dont know why people still do up b after utilt. Everyone and their grandma knows that a stereotypical ZSS will do up b after utilt. so do things like wait for them to airdodge and punish.

 

[sasook]

Thanks guys, I'll try to get some more vids up soon.

 

[TheRockSays]

approach with side b, down b is unpredictable when done at right time. Grab mostly after u stun the opponent but has to be done quickly.Only use paralyzer.(Neutral B)when they are approaching you(note never charge it against MK or Snake.)i suggest if your not going to fully uses the pieces throw out 2 and keep 1.

 

[V1RU5]

Everything speculosity said is QFT. Very good points. I wanted to address the down b on stage in my original point however I did not. Just take what he said to heart.

@ TheRock Sure if your not going to use the pieces throw out 2. However, I feel like thats the wrong advice. He could def benefit more from understanding how to effectively use them. In this match up (v. link) I find it important to keep the armor pieces in play.

 

[sasook]

Bump, another new vid. Note, that new vid was before I read your comments on the Link vid, so none of the stuff you told me has applied to game yet.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

There's nothing wrong with using all 3 pieces as long as you use them well. Most ZSS' dont use them to their full capability and/or are too passive with them. Being able to tech chase with them while using mindgames, punishing any move/roll/airdodge that they do, and keeping the pieces moving at all times. you can guarantee at least 70% or more even against pro players.

I really need to make that thread about how to use the pieces. As soon as I get the chance...

approach with side b, down b is unpredictable when done at right time. Grab mostly after u stun the opponent but has to be done quickly.Only use paralyzer.(Neutral B)when they are approaching you(note never charge it against MK or Snake.)i suggest if your not going to fully uses the pieces throw out 2 and keep 1.

Side b isnt a good approach, you get PSed. down b is never "unpredictable" if done on-stage. And Like Virus said, He should learn to use all 3 pieces well instead of taking the safe way out.

I suggest you play offline to practice using pieces (or ZSS altogether ) IMO she cant use the pieces right at all on wifi. and training on wifi will give you a habit of spamming side b since people cant shield it online.

 

[sasook]

Haha, believe me, I don't abuse lag whatsoever. I play Link for cryin' out loud lol, you don't have to worry about me spamming sideb.

As for the offline thing, I have no one to play with . My parents hate video games, so I can't call over people in my area/go to tourneys. And I live in a smash-dead town, so all my friends don't care for it.

But ok, I'll try to keep all 3 pieces there. Whenever I try to do that though, somehow they always end up against me T_T

 

[sasook]

Sorry for the double post, I'm just curious if the same advice still applies for the DDD video, since I don't think anyone commented on it. That was still pre-critique, just so you know.

 

[canthandletheSpeculosity]

Sorry for the double post, I'm just curious if the same advice still applies for the DDD video, since I don't think anyone commented on it. That was still pre-critique, just so you know.

Man that was one bad DDD. (not slang) There's no point in using forward glide toss for no reason especially if you're right next to him. That guys DDD was pretty predictable and straightforward so you could've exploited it more.

 

[Kennahh]

Man that was one bad DDD. (not slang) There's no point in using forward glide toss for no reason especially if you're right next to him. That guys DDD was pretty predictable and straightforward so you could've exploited it more.

Lawl, that was mine, I had picked him up that day before