My thoughts on these tier list

[tebby]

is the word *** really banned on this forum hahahahaha

 

[Karaoke Man]

It doesn't matter how BAD the Tier List is. Just relax. Over time, the system will fix itself. You're talking about the Preseason of Football here. People will make wild predictions based on nothing. Let them.

No, it won't fix itself. It hasn't fixed itself for years, why would it start now? Letting people make these "wild predictions" is literally the problem. People who will flaunt a flawed generalization of said characters after watching them for like....10 minutes.

Tier Lists show the best characters, period. There is nothing wrong with a Tier List. But hell, in Brawl I fought with Ganondorf, and won quite a bit. That being said, "Ganondork" is the absolute worst in Brawl, and I have to agree. He's really slow, and none of his attacks besides his A are really non-punishable. Tier Lists are based on thousands of people playing over a long period of time. The longer the amount of time, the more accurate the assessment. Just give the Tier List time.

I'm sure that's not the only Ganondorf you've played and I'm not trying to be crude or anything, but when in the span of Brawl's activity did YOU do research on the character? Not just the frame data that you'd compare to the local top tier, but conceptualizing the abstract possibilities of how you apply that data. He may be slow, but he's not gonna' just wildly challenge a move head-to-head either.

You also have it a little backwards. Tier lists are based on the commercialization of both the attendance and the results of those characters in tournaments, but...You can't have results without the attendance. People gravitate towards the more commercialized character because that is all that is being seen due to the popularity, Yet, if a Bowser player did all that I said above, other players, will have absolutely no idea what to do; Because there's no possible way for any of those players to know more about Bowser than the experienced Bowser player.


Kind of like I was saying earlier, the tier list may as well just be like the one they have for Pokemon. It'd honestly make more sense.

 

[Deleted member 268018]

No, it won't fix itself. It hasn't fixed itself for years, why would it start now? Letting people make these "wild predictions" is literally the problem. People who will flaunt a flawed generalization of said characters after watching them for like....10 minutes.




I'm sure that's not the only Ganondorf you've played and I'm not trying to be crude or anything, but when in the span of Brawl's activity did YOU do research on the character? Not just the frame data that you'd compare to the local top tier, but conceptualizing the abstract possibilities of how you apply that data. He may be slow, but he's not gonna' just wildly challenge a move head-to-head either.

You also have it a little backwards. Tier lists are based on the commercialization of both the attendance and the results of those characters in tournaments, but...You can't have results without the attendance. People gravitate towards the more commercialized character because that is all that is being seen due to the popularity, Yet, if a Bowser player did all that I said above, other players, will have absolutely no idea what to do; Because there's no possible way for any of those players to know more about Bowser than the experienced Bowser player.


Kind of like I was saying earlier, the tier list may as well just be like the one they have for Pokemon. It'd honestly make more sense.

The metagame matures and finds ways to overthrow old established methods of winning. I mean, seriously. I don't even know what you're trying to say. Maybe I'm stupid, but what you're saying just seems pointless to me. When did I do research on Ganondorf? Never. It's a game, not a job. Charizard sucks in my opinion, but everyone still plays him. Okay, commercialization has 'taken effect'. I thought the goal of the game is to have fun. Tier Lists are simply a measure of which characters give you the best chance to win. It doesn't dictate how to play the game. And trust me. If there's a combo with an under-commercialized character, someone will find it. And then he might skyrocket in popularity.

I'm not sure I'm getting what you're saying.

I see you know of Pokemon Tiers. So you're a Pokemon fan too. Fascinating.

 

[Conda]

Still confused as to why this thread is still open. Tier list discussion like this has no point to it, especially since this was started before we all had the game.

 

[popo12]

No, it won't fix itself. It hasn't fixed itself for years, why would it start now? Letting people make these "wild predictions" is literally the problem. People who will flaunt a flawed generalization of said characters after watching them for like....10 minutes.




I'm sure that's not the only Ganondorf you've played and I'm not trying to be crude or anything, but when in the span of Brawl's activity did YOU do research on the character? Not just the frame data that you'd compare to the local top tier, but conceptualizing the abstract possibilities of how you apply that data. He may be slow, but he's not gonna' just wildly challenge a move head-to-head either.

You also have it a little backwards. Tier lists are based on the commercialization of both the attendance and the results of those characters in tournaments, but...You can't have results without the attendance. People gravitate towards the more commercialized character because that is all that is being seen due to the popularity, Yet, if a Bowser player did all that I said above, other players, will have absolutely no idea what to do; Because there's no possible way for any of those players to know more about Bowser than the experienced Bowser player.


Kind of like I was saying earlier, the tier list may as well just be like the one they have for Pokemon. It'd honestly make more sense.

Isn't Smogon's tier list based solely on play rates? I may be misunderstanding your post, but isn't that basically what you're saying is wrong with the Smash tier list?

Anyway, tier lists are very good reflections of how top players perceive the game at a given time. They are not, and are not intended to be, definitive statements on what the game's balance is forever and always. That's why they get revised and why characters move around. The worst part of Smash's tier lists is the way this community's irrationally strong opinions on them. On their own they're exactly what they need to be.

 

[Karaoke Man]

The metagame matures and finds ways to overthrow old established methods of winning. I mean, seriously. I don't even know what you're trying to say. Maybe I'm stupid, but what you're saying just seems pointless to me. When did I do research on Ganondorf? Never. It's a game, not a job. Charizard sucks in my opinion, but everyone still plays him. Okay, commercialization has 'taken effect'. I thought the goal of the game is to have fun. Tier Lists are simply a measure of which characters give you the best chance to win. It doesn't dictate how to play the game. And trust me. If there's a combo with an under-commercialized character, someone will find it. And then he might skyrocket in popularity.

I'm not sure I'm getting what you're saying.

I see you know of Pokemon Tiers. So you're a Pokemon fan too. Fascinating.

You're not, nor do I think (and I hope you don't think) that you're stupid at all and yes you're right that the main goal of the game is to have fun.

Tier Lists however, are not a measure of which characters give you the best chance to win; They're an estimation on the commercialization of character attendance + results at tournaments...and a contagious judgement based how high or low they are on the tier list.

The Tier List(s) may not dictate how to play the game outright, true; but it can alter your perception of how you go about it competitively and possibly even for fun. Because it is a generalized perception of characters that affects those don't know that it is ultimately the players that determine whether a character is "good" or "bad". It subliminally gets people to adopt a "tier *****" mentality.

Yes, Pokemon is the stuffffff

Isn't Smogon's tier list based solely on play rates? I may be misunderstanding your post, but isn't that basically what you're saying is wrong with the Smash tier list?

Anyway, tier lists are very good reflections of how top players perceive the game at a given time. They are not, and are not intended to be, definitive statements on what the game's balance is forever and always. That's why they get revised and why characters move around. The worst part of Smash's tier lists is the way this community's irrationally strong opinions on them. On their own they're exactly what they need to be.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Let's just say Meta Knight and Ice Climbers would've and probably should've been "Uber" tier in Brawl. If Speed Boost Blaziken was legal, you'd be seeing them a whoooooooole lot...

They only get revised by results, but if they're not at the tournaments, they won't get the results no matter how low they may have placed; thus no rising on a tier list. Sinking below a relatively more active character by default. People buying into that perception is the problem. On their own, they don't need to be a misconception, which is exactly what they are. I kind of agree on the irrationally strong opinions, because in my own opinion, Tier Lists should absolutely, almost never be taken seriously. Mainly because when it comes down to it, all of it is more-or-less subjective.

But then they get taken seriously by people, and not because they want to have "fun" with the game necessarily; They want to win, but will do whatever it takes to get there, even if it makes taking a large shortcut. The issue isn't so much the desire to win as much as it's the mentality behind it. Typically, this is why the top tier becomes...and usually stays top tier because of either:

A.) Polarization/Overcentralization due to OP mechanics in the game or characters design.
B.) A large portion of players give up their sense of personal value to try to earn the big bucks very early on in their growth as a player by dropping their initial mains, and picking up the most commercialized character in the game.

Just like Fox, Shiek in Melee
Just like Meta Knight & IC's in Brawl
Just like how I feel people are going to be swarming to Little Mac eventually in Smash 4. (Lol just watch and see)

 

[popo12]

Okay, I see what you're saying. I don't really think it's that big of an issue though. As long as there are some people willing to explore the lesser played characters, and there always are, especially in this game, then the tiers will move around. Top characters are likely to stay top because players are comfortable with them and there's money on the line, but I don't think that's necessarily taking a shortcut. Fox and Falco are really strong in Melee, but they're also very technical and it takes a lot of work to play them at that level. It really depends on the game whether or not a character is the easy way out.

 

[Mr.C]

Truly skilled individuals with highly evolved intellectual minds like myself can precisely layout tier placements with minimal play time. I deduced, with 90% accuracy, both Melee and Brawl tier lists within the first week of game play.

 

[Kiyosuki]

It can't be helped really, tiers do definitely exist...pretty much every single traditional fighter has shown that certain characters tend to fair better or easier in a competitive scene than others, and while there's usually a large pool of characters who can make it to the top with dedication and work inbetween the top tier and those unlucky characters at the bottom who are often just a few bad design decisions short of true viability...most are going to flock to the easier path of picking top tier because they want to win, which to many trumps any sort of character loyalty. Although there's always exceptions, and that sort of thing's a bit more common place in Japanese scenes I've noticed but generally it's just the brutal, all around reality of competition.

However, I do definitely believe there's such a thing as over-fixation on top tier, because like I said there's usually a fairly large pool of characters in the middle whose viability may not be as outwardly obvious as the top...are still capable of being an event stealing threat, and aside from rare cases where the gap between top tier and everyone else is just so huge that there's just no way...it's completely possible for someone to use a character from that pool and completely destroy top-tier hugging power hungry competitors who were so busy paying attention only to the characters at the top of a list...that they never truly got to know any other characters maybe because they're just harder to use...or even in some cases just went under the radar. I consider those kinds of competitors fundamentally weak really. You cannot underestimate how crippling it is to not have an even decent understanding of a matchup no matter how top tier your character is.

In short, tier lists exist and it can't be helped if most are going to flock to the top tier...but the tier list isn't this infallable, written in stone commandment, it's an organic thing that can even be misleading as even the frequency of a characters' use or lack thereof can affect placing. Bottom line is if one feels they need to pick a top tier to be competitive then it can't be helped, but don't use the tier-list as an excuse to be just inflexible. I've seen so many cocky players get blown up by that attitude that it's just hilarious. Even if there's some characters that are probably staying at the top, never stop experimenting.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Still confused as to why this thread is still open. Tier list discussion like this has no point to it, especially since this was started before we all had the game.

Quality of discussion was higher than average in the beginning and I never checked back to see how it went later. Also was a thread before I got re-modded on the board lol.

Fixed the problem now.