My thoughts on the current Melee ti

[NooBosS]

I think the current Melee tier list is pretty accurate, however I believe there should be a couple tweaks. Here are my thoughts on the current tier list and what changes there should be.
I think Fox, Falco and Marth should stay where they are because they are and have always been extremely dominant characters. I believe that Jigglypuff should be in 4th instead of Sheik because Jigglypuff has a dominant air game and a 1 hit KO 95% of the time. Sheik may have the ability to chain grab floaty characters. She cannot chaingrab Fox or Falco which is another reason Sheik should be moved to 5th. Ice Climbers and Capatin Falcon are fine. Samus should be 9th instead of Pikachu because she has a better zoning game and stronger and more effective tilts. She also has more dominant aerial damage output compared to Pikachu. Luigi should be ranked in 12th instead of 13th because of his superior wavedash, powerful upsmash and his downsmash which has a ton of priority compared to Yoshi. Yoshi can also not shield drop as effectively and has a linear recovery compared to Luigi. Mewtwo should switch with Roy because Mewtwo has a great recovery, ok weight, great aerial combos with f-air and u-air. Roy has a terrible recovery, one of the worst if not the worst. Roy sucks against crouch cancelling and his sour spots are absolutely awful! Also he cannot kill unless he gets a Smash attack or edge guard which is unlikely. My last change is that Bowser should be the worst character in the game. He has terrible aerial speed, some of the laggiest moves in the entire game, no combo potential, the slowest jump in the game, useless Smash attacks. Only 2 edge guarding options. Is so large he is basically combo meat and he has a terrible recovery. Bowser is so bad he should have his bottom tier just for him. Here is my final tier list

1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Marth
4. Jigglypuff
5. Sheik
6. Peach
7. Ice Climbers
8. Captain Falcon
9. Samus
10. Pikachu
11. Dr. Mario
12. Luigi
13. Yoshi
14. Ganondorf
15. Mario
16. Young Link
17. D.K
18. Link
19. Mr. Game and Watch
20. Mewtwo
21. Roy
22. Zelda
23. Ness
24. Pichu
25. Kirby
26. Bowser

Are my changes correct or am I completely wrong? Let me know what you think as I would appreciate it a lot. Thanks!

 

[NooBosS]

Also ignore the title error. I don't know how to fix that!

 

[Rpggames77]

sheik does overall better against against the cast compared to falco, jigglypuff and marth

 

[NooBosS]

I'm not sure. Sheik is easily worse than Falco, Marth has a slight advantage and I believe Jigglypuff barely beats it Sheik. Here is some more reasons why I believe Jigglypuff is better than Sheik

Jigglypuff has a better recovery, better aerial speed and drift. Better disjointed hit boxes. Better Smash attacks with speed and damage and a 1 hit K.O move. Sheik however does win the grab game by a longshot, weight and ranges attacks. Jigglypuff has more powerful options than Sheik, although less options. Even though top Jigglypuff mains like Hungrybox and Prince Abu can struggle against Sheik, Jigglypuff wins the matchups just barely because of her overal better punish game and aerial attacks, which professsinal Melee is more played often.

 

[Rpggames77]

i wasn't really thinking about it when it came to damage and options, i was thinking versus the rest of the cast. Since sheik can pretty much destroy everything below top 8 and the only top 8 characters she struggles with are puff and icies while puff struggles with fox,falco and marth, that was why she was so high. But why do you say that sheik is worse than falco, I am a sole believer that sheik is 2nd place on the tier list

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

First off, discussion of the tier list should remain in the tier list thread.

Second, Sheik is amazing and definitely not below puff. She has exactly 1 bad matchup, fox. I would argue that sheik beats every other character in the game, including falco, puff and ICs (realistically those 3 are close to even, but slightly sheik favor IMO).

I like the rest of your list, though. Its pretty well ordered. The only thing I really disagree with is that ness isn't dead last. I wish it weren't so, but he is just trash.

 

[-ACE-]

Marth beats sheik at top level.

 

[NooBosS]

Well, The main reason she is high on the tier list is that she isn't to complicated to learn compared to characters like fox and Falco. Sure, Sheik does way better against the cast under the Top 10. But when does anybody else play any character lower 10th place in tournament? Almost never. Besides that, Sheik pretty much has a tough time against anyone else above her, in this case. Marth, Falco Fox and Puff. The only reason she is super high in the standard tier list is that she has the 2nd best matchup spread. But really only the top 10 characters are played competively

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Marth beats sheik at top level.

People say this, but I really do not think thats true. Sheik has too many ways to force trades, and she should always gain more from them than marth can.

I don't think the matchup is unwinnable for marth by any means, but it is firmly sheik favored.

 

[Rpggames77]

Well, The main reason she is high on the tier list is that she isn't to complicated to learn compared to characters like fox and Falco. Sure, Sheik does way better against the cast under the Top 10. But when does anybody else play any character lower 10th place in tournament? Almost never. Besides that, Sheik pretty much has a tough time against anyone else above her, in this case. Marth, Falco Fox and Puff. The only reason she is super high in the standard tier list is that she has the 2nd best matchup spread. But really only the top 10 characters are played competively

well westballz has been breakin out the dk for harambe and falco, marth and fox are pretty even for sheik. I do believe that vs puff is in puffs favor but i still believe that sheik should be second

 

[-ACE-]

People say this, but I really do not think thats true. Sheik has too many ways to force trades, and she should always gain more from them than marth can.

I don't think the matchup is unwinnable for marth by any means, but it is firmly sheik favored.

I used to think so, but a few years ago PPMD's near perfect neutral game showed me the light. The higher the level, the more neutral game matters. Marth's DD, fair, and tipper dtilt (and follow-ups) tip the scales for myself and many top players nowadays. It is a tough matchup for Marth to play correctly, as the decision making is much more complicated and mentally demanding than sheik's top level play vs Marth (and it's much more rarely witnessed), but when he is doing everything right sheik has a harder time than he does.

 

[NooBosS]

That is why Jigglypuff is ahead of Sheik in my personal tier list, she is better than Sheik. I do think Marth and Sheik are tied matchup wise. But since Marth can deal with Fox, Falco and Puff better, that is why he is higher up, and since Jigglypuff can deal with spacious better who are more used in tournaments. Sheik can deal with Marth better (not 100% though). I agree that Sheik can deal with Marth better, but since Jigglypuff can handle Fox and Falco slightly better, Jigglypuff is higher up in my tier list!

 

[Plunder]

That is why Jigglypuff is ahead of Sheik in my personal tier list, she is better than Sheik. I do think Marth and Sheik are tied matchup wise. But since Marth can deal with Fox, Falco and Puff better, that is why he is higher up, and since Jigglypuff can deal with spacious better who are more used in tournaments. Sheik can deal with Marth better (not 100% though). I agree that Sheik can deal with Marth better, but since Jigglypuff can handle Fox and Falco slightly better, Jigglypuff is higher up in my tier list!

Check out jiggly puff match ups with mid and low tiers.

She goes near even with characters like the links and g&w. Also ganon and falcon actually have a chance against her at most levels of play, so that kinda conflicts with your list logic. She does not have flat out amazing matchups against some tiers outside top tier like sheik or others do.

She has issues like vertical mobility, being camped, etc that those above her have no issue with.

 

[NooBosS]

I agree, but I'm making this a more competitive focused tier list, which means really the only Top ten characters matter really, as any one under the top ten aren't really played. Sheik has better matchups pretty much against anyone under Top ten, however Jigglypuff does better against the rest of the top ten. I agree Sheik has a better time against Marth and Falcon, but she fails to beat characters like Peach, IC's Fox and Falco, I'm not saying Jigglypuff wins all the matchups between all those characters, Puff just does better against more characters in the Top Ten compared to Sheik, as she is more focused on lower tiers and characters with bad recoveries. I know Jigglypuff is heavily outranked, be her aerials and her multiple jumps can minimize or even dodge projectiles completely. Also her aerials like B-air and F-air can outprioritize other aerials. If all characters were all used comepetivly, Sheik would easily be #2 or even the best in the whole game if all the characters were consistently used in competive play.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sheik beats puff and peach. Its not as easy as beating falcon, but its still in sheik's favor. I think sheik vs ICs is very even, possibly sheik favored. She also beats falco slightly. Literally her only bad matchup is against fox, everything else is even at worst.

My opinion on the tier list is something like this

Fox/Marth
Sheik/Falco/Puff
Falcon/Peach/ICs
Samus/Doc/Luigi/Pika/Yoshi
Ganon/Mario/Young Link/DK/Link
.... dont care about below

 

[NooBosS]

Falco wins neutral easily over Sheik, because his lasers are way more versatile and safe around needles. Sheik main tool is to trick her opponent to DI in the wrong direction, and then capitalize on their mistake. Also, since Sheik's down throw chaingrab does not work on fastfallers like the spacies, it forces a techchase situation, which is not as useful as a long chaingrab. Sheik can score a big punish if you properly anticipate what your opponent is going to do next. If that is unsuccesful, Falco can easily shine out into d-air into Forward Smash for the kill if the percent is right. Sheik definitely loses to the IC's, because her main tool, her grab game is competley nullified against theirs. The IC's also barely outmaneuver Sheik with their superior wavedash. Sheik can also easily be punished with a grab, an easy setup for a wobble. Peach also beats Sheik because she is more superior on the ground with her steallar down-Smash and dash attack. She is way more advantageous in crouch-cancelling, I would say the Puff matchup is dead even, while Sheik beats Marth and Falcon. She still loses to Fox obviously.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falco wins neutral easily over Sheik, because his lasers are way more versatile and safe around needles. Sheik main tool is to trick her opponent to DI in the wrong direction, and then capitalize on their mistake.

Not true, Sheik wins the projectile war against Falco. High level play uses Falco lasers against him, and Sheik uses powershielded lasers better than falco can abuse SHL. Heres a writeup I did on the sheik boards a few months ago.

Sheik beats Falco slightly IMO. Theres a relatively simple flowchart you can execute in neutral.

1. Get on your side platform.
2. Charge needles ... hold forward here
3. Falco can react in two ways:
   1. Jump to his side platform and shoot you
      • Respond to this by releasing your needles. You will win the camping war this way. If he gets a footing lasering on the platform, drop to the ground and charge needles, which will make him move down, so you can move back up and thus return to the start of the flowchart.
   2. Approach your side of the stage
      • You're holding forward right? Now press shield and rotate 45° down for the shield drop, and do an instant fair. If you do this at the proper spacing/timing, you should be safe against everything falco does. He needs a considerable read on your timing in order to do something like stuff the fair with utilt or bair, and his miss means a free hit for you. If you find your opponent reading you, you can wait in your shield for any amount of time and you can also wavedash to change the spacing.

This video is a great example of this style of flowchart in action.

Forcing Falco to approach you is also beneficial because he has very few safe options to hit your shield. Most sheiks are like marth players, they want to abuse the large shield grab. But nair out of shield is faster (6 frames), larger, and less punishable (mobile + auto cancels) than shield grab. If falco shines your shield, his only option that beats your instant nair is if he does another shine. If he does nair it will tie with your nair, but if he does dair your nair is faster. So basically, you want to abuse this as much as possible and nair OoS when he tries to "shield pressure" you (remember: nair after the shine).

Because of that, good Falcos will do double shines on your shield quite often. The solution to double shine is simply to wait it out, but because you are conditioned to wait for the 2nd shine his other choices become safe again. In particular, shine->grab becomes a powerful choice. A neat option select is to input a roll during the expected shield stun of the 2nd shine, which will do nothing if he double shines but make your roll if he tries to shine->grab you. He can also choose to do shine->wavedash back which is semi-safe because you are conditioned to wait/not grab (can be shield grabbed but stays under nair OoS).

All in all, none of this is favorable for Falco. These are all gambles and mixups that don't have much reward for the effort.

Also, since Sheik's down throw chaingrab does not work on fastfallers like the spacies, it forces a techchase situation, which is not as useful as a long chaingrab. Sheik can score a big punish if you properly anticipate what your opponent is going to do next. If that is unsuccesful, Falco can easily shine out into d-air into Forward Smash for the kill if the percent is right.

Its called reaction tech chasing. Dthrow, stand on top of their missed tech. It is possible to regrab all of their tech choices on reaction. Its not easy, but its also not impossible.

Sheik definitely loses to the IC's, because her main tool, her grab game is competley nullified against theirs. The IC's also barely outmaneuver Sheik with their superior wavedash. Sheik can also easily be punished with a grab, an easy setup for a wobble.

Sheik has to play differently in this matchup, ill give you that. But because she can't grab doesn't mean she doesnt have choices. Sheik has an autocancel fair that is consistently -1 on shield, so she can effectively act like peach on their shield and never risk being shield grabbed (can't miss an lcancel if you autocancel). Then you platform camp and abuse needles at the 45°, all you have to avoid is ICs being directly below you and upairing. Sheik also punishes ICs super hard, but its different from how Fox and Peach do it. Instead of focusing nana, once they are split you combo popo until you get him to sideb recover, and then you slap him once more to KO. Ignore nana and swat her away with your extra frames, don't actively chase her because then you give popo full stage control.

Peach also beats Sheik because she is more superior on the ground with her steallar down-Smash and dash attack. She is way more advantageous in crouch-cancelling, I would say the Puff matchup is dead even, while Sheik beats Marth and Falcon. She still loses to Fox obviously.

Interesting. You realize that if Sheik shields any of Peach's ground moves, Sheik gets a guaranteed grab? Its sort of like fighting Samus, where you can hide in your shield because their grab is bad. If Peach is dash dancing, her dash attack boosts her forward; her grab is short and stubby. Its not a free win for Sheik by any means, but its on the same level of difficulty for Peach as Marth is for her.

The puff matchup is in Sheiks favor, and I didnt believe it for a while. It started when I talked to Mr. F (Swedish Delight's brother, mains puff, goes to school in Chicago) at a Rubicon a few months ago. He said it is definitely in Sheik's favor, but he didn't really cite any reasons. I did some research on my own later and studied the matchup, and now I agree with him. Like ICs, grabbing is a huge risk. Instead you have to play safe with your aerials and abuse your mobility advantage (and your projectile advantage). When you have convinced puff to shield, it becomes safe to grab them, and dthrow -> uair is a true combo for sheik on puff regardless of DI (kills around 80% before the grab on battlefield).

 

[-ACE-]

I met Mr. F in south Florida. Cool guy