My Problem with Perfect Pivoting

[HSmileyFace]

Just a short post, but I have a problem with perfect pivoting.

So after about a week of practising, I can perform the perfect pivot very consistently, practically 100% of the time, and I'm proud of myself. But while using it in a match, my thumb gets very tired and sore, making them harder to input. This means that in tournaments I will have to use them sparingly. It's sad really, because I find PP extremely useful for spacing, especially as Sheik.

Anyone else's thumb getting sore after a while?

 

[ATH_]

This happens yeah, do some carpel tunnel exercises to help this out! It works for me and makes the pain numbed a bit. If you don't know some exercises, just look it up and there'll be some demonstrations.

This is a common trouble for players, so I can relate.

 

[Raijinken]

My suggestion is to not overuse them just for the sake of using them. If you don't need that advantage (say, against notably less skilled opponents), don't tire yourself out for negligible gains.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

With any AT, just because you learned how to do it doesn't mean you know how to use it. You should think about when you want to use it, then practice using it in those situations.

 

[guedes the brawler]

my problem with it lies in the difficulty. smash shouldn't be about these complicated/strict inputs.

 

[PCHU]

my problem with it lies in the difficulty. smash shouldn't be about these complicated/strict inputs.

No, it shouldn't, so rather than complaining about it, find out where and why you're losing to it and do something about it.
Perfect pivoting and roll cancel grabbing aren't universal solutions to problems; if you're consistently getting punished by these things, you really need to analyze your matches and understand what's putting you in these situations as well as how you can bait this response to work in your favor.
The game is actually really basic overall, even these "advanced" techniques included, so it really isn't that hard to work around someone who uses these things; even Snake's DACUS in Brawl could get him killed if the opponent baited it out.

Not talking to you specifically; this is a general statement.

 

[Johnknight1]

my thumb gets very tired and sore, making them harder to input. This means that in tournaments I will have to use them sparingly. It's sad really, because I find PP extremely useful for spacing, especially as Sheik.

You probably need to watch this video:

That really helped my hands out. I especially since I'm missing part of my wrist bones on both of my hands (thanks premature birthing delivery due to my mother's umbilical cord choking me! XD)

From playing Melee Fox late in 2012 I really burnt out my hands and I had to really stop playing Fox for a good while. It really limited me after doing 30 or so hard sessions in a month of training and nearly a dozen events after months of entering about 2 tournaments a week. It heavily effected me well into 2013, actually, probably up until the end of summer.

I watched that video and it really got my hands back better than ever to where I am able to be more precise with my movement, and to where I am able to get my hands to do what I truly want them to do for me.

 

[guedes the brawler]

No, it shouldn't, so rather than complaining about it, find out where and why you're losing to it and do something about it.
Perfect pivoting and roll cancel grabbing aren't universal solutions to problems; if you're consistently getting punished by these things, you really need to analyze your matches and understand what's putting you in these situations as well as how you can bait this response to work in your favor.
The game is actually really basic overall, even these "advanced" techniques included, so it really isn't that hard to work around someone who uses these things; even Snake's DACUS in Brawl could get him killed if the opponent baited it out.

Not talking to you specifically; this is a general statement.

i'm talking strictly on 'how to do it' i never faced someone that uses these techs and i don't think my posts leaves room for that kind of interpretation so i'm not sure from where you got this...

 

[PCHU]

i'm talking strictly on 'how to do it' i never faced someone that uses these techs and i don't think my posts leaves room for that kind of interpretation so i'm not sure from where you got this...

Which is why I ended that with

Not talking to you specifically; this is a general statement.

It's really not that tough; it's actually easier than moonwalking in Melee since all you have to do is flick the stick after dashing.
I don't think I've done anything in this game that feels unintuitive or unfriendly to people learning the game; it's all pretty straightforward.

 

[ZephyrZ]

my problem with it lies in the difficulty. smash shouldn't be about these complicated/strict inputs.

In all honesty, I'm not interesting in learning silly ATs like this either. Too much effort that I could be putting into, well, regular fighting. I prefer Smash to be a game with simple and intuitive controls. There's more ways to show you're skilled then just by using a tricky move.

But our shared opinion here is completely subjective, and we have no way of proving that we're necessarily right. Different people have different values, and I suppose not everyone finds the game's simplicity as appealing as we do. As much as I'd hate to say it, I think Perfect Pivoting is just something we'll have to put up with(although I'm not really going to be practicing it myself).

 

[erico9001]

Hard ATs bias the game towards those who put lots of time/effort into the game. It puts them at higher ground. It's great for people who are wiling to spend all that time, or are able to, but poor for the majority of people who are not. Even some who do practice the ATs may argue they wish they did not have to do that.

It's really not that tough; it's actually easier than moonwalking in Melee since all you have to do is flick the stick after dashing.
I don't think I've done anything in this game that feels unintuitive or unfriendly to people learning the game; it's all pretty straightforward.

Just because it's easy for you does not mean it's easy for new players, lol. Your thumb has to move pretty damn quick for perfect pivot (for me, it's much easier going left than right argh >_<). It's not too hard for somebody who has been doing competitive Smash for years.

 

[T0MMY]

I got the same problem. I practiced up my pivoting and ended up having to take a break from Smash for... well, kind of still not playing it. Maybe I'll see how tomorrow goes.
Kind of sux being physically limited in such a way, and the reason why I completely dropped Melee competitively.
Also I found out my connective tissues (and other tissues) were being terribly inflamed by mycotoxins from mold due to improper building upkeep from the property managers and probably was the real underlying problem.
Detoxing from mycotoxins has really revived my deteriorating health and opened my eyes to others' health problems - mold is everywhere and the mycotoxins can vary considerably from emotional and neurological problems to skin, teeth, and eye problems. I happened to have like every symptom except for miscarriage, coma, and death (but not too far off from having all of them).

I highly suggest anyone having strange symptoms like sleep problems, nerve twitching, emotional problems, skin problems, memory/mental problems etc. to look into doing a mold detox and see how they feel after about a month. It can bring back your Smash game considerably, the less toxins the better for every Smasher.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Which is why I ended that with


It's really not that tough; it's actually easier than moonwalking in Melee since all you have to do is flick the stick after dashing.
I don't think I've done anything in this game that feels unintuitive or unfriendly to people learning the game; it's all pretty straightforward.

i think it's tough. compared to the normal stuff we see in the game, i mean.

 

[PCHU]

Hard ATs bias the game towards those who put lots of time/effort into the game. It puts them at higher ground. It's great for people who are wiling to spend all that time, or are able to, but poor for the majority of people who are not. Even some who do practice the ATs may argue they wish they did not have to do that.

Just because it's easy for you does not mean it's easy for new players, lol. Your thumb has to move pretty damn quick for perfect pivot (for me, it's much easier going left than right argh >_<). It's not too hard for somebody who has been doing competitive Smash for years.

I agree with you in that it does bias the game toward people who put lots of time and effort into the game, but so does actually playing the game, regardless of how simple it is.
If you play the game more, you're already getting farther than everyone else, at least in terms of experience.

Basically, I think people are blowing this slightly out of proportion, trying to pin this as something it's not.
Saying "You don't have to wavedash" is a lot different from "You don't have to perfect pivot" not only because of the difference in techs, but the difference in effectiveness and general potential of application, not to mention wavedashing is actually easier than perfect pivoting.
It's a semi-difficult AT that almost isn't worth the trouble most of the time due to how limited it is; people have nothing to be afraid of.
It may seem like you need it, but once you learn it, you'll start to figure out why you don't really see it that often.

 

[erico9001]

I agree with you in that it does bias the game toward people who put lots of time and effort into the game, but so does actually playing the game, regardless of how simple it is.
If you play the game more, you're already getting farther than everyone else, at least in terms of experience.

Basically, I think people are blowing this slightly out of proportion, trying to pin this as something it's not.
Saying "You don't have to wavedash" is a lot different from "You don't have to perfect pivot" not only because of the difference in techs, but the difference in effectiveness and general potential of application, not to mention wavedashing is actually easier than perfect pivoting.
It's a semi-difficult AT that almost isn't worth the trouble most of the time due to how limited it is; people have nothing to be afraid of.
It may seem like you need it, but once you learn it, you'll start to figure out why you don't really see it that often.

Yeah, the game does have less of these ATs so far, but the game is still fresh. I agree though that perfect pivoting isn't all that bad, but I had an experience with a Fox online who seemed to be great at perfect pivoting and poor at everything else. It made him actually tough for me. I'd go for him with an attack, but he'd perfect pivot away and I would be open. What made him bad though was he usually did not punish me... it was weird. It was as if he spent all his time learning how to perfect pivot but not enough time actually figuring the game out.

I think the game is naturally a little biased to the people who put in lots of effort rather than the people who naturally understand the game, but ATs make it much more biased (if they are truly that useful of ATs).

 

[PCHU]

Yeah, the game does have less of these ATs so far, but the game is still fresh. I agree though that perfect pivoting isn't all that bad, but I had an experience with a Fox online who seemed to be great at perfect pivoting and poor at everything else. It made him actually tough for me. I'd go for him with an attack, but he'd perfect pivot away and I would be open. What made him bad though was he usually did not punish me... it was weird. It was as if he spent all his time learning how to perfect pivot but not enough time actually figuring the game out.

I think the game is naturally a little biased to the people who put in lots of effort rather than the people who naturally understand the game, but ATs make it much more biased (if they are truly that useful of ATs).

A few years ago, I was a Fox solely focused on tech until I got the honor of fighting against Iori, a very talented Mewtwo main.
He pushed through all my tech skill and soundly beat me every time; I think I only got him down to 2 stocks once or twice.
Granted, he was using ATs as well, but if you've got a firm grasp on the base game, tech shouldn't make too much of an impact aside from refining what you already have or preparing you for advanced option select.
I'm not saying you'll be perfect at it because everything takes at least a little time to learn, but I am saying that your playstyle will evolve over time and you'll be able to adapt to even the weirdest styles.

As a side note, the trouble in your situation seems more due to a difference in style, not necessarily due to application of tech.
There are several people who rely on one strong tactic that works well in a generally solid playstyle, but outside of looking fancy, it doesn't do much for them.