My opinion on tiers.

[Blackavar]

Women aren't interested in the same things as men are because their brain chemistry is fundamentally different, if they weren't we would see roughly equal representation in everything.

I've never heard of a hairdressing competition, but I suppose they do happen, are you familiar enough with the hairdressing tourney scene to claim that men aren't represented? Men are well represented in fields like fashion design and interior decorating. I suspect men are well represented in make up as well, but I don't know.

Also it's a little ironic that you're suggesting I have an ignorant/misogynistic view of women while your idea of what they can excell at is hairdressing, fashion, makeup and competing over men... Real enlightened bro.

 

[kingPiano]

Women aren't interested in the same things as men are because their brain chemistry is fundamentally different, if they weren't we would see roughly equal representation in everything.

I've never heard of a hairdressing competition, but I suppose they do happen, are you familiar enough with the hairdressing tourney scene to claim that men aren't represented? Men are well represented in fields like fashion design and interior decorating. I suspect men are well represented in make up as well, but I don't know.

Also it's a little ironic that you're suggesting I have an ignorant/misogynistic view of women while your idea of what they can excell at is hairdressing, fashion, makeup and competing over men... Real enlightened bro.

Your level of understanding on even the most basic concepts and the insane holes in your logic are quite impressive. It's like a 9 year old talking about women over Call of Duty voice chat.


.

 

[Spak]

I've never heard of a hairdressing competition, but I suppose they do happen, are you familiar enough with the hairdressing tourney scene to claim that men aren't represented? Men are well represented in fields like fashion design and interior decorating. I suspect men are well represented in make up as well, but I don't know.

More men are represented in hairstyling than women (approx. 1 woman for every 8.03 men), so this should be 1 woman winner for every 8 men that win, right?

In the Master Hair Stylist of the Year Award (in the competition hosted by the PBA), the 5 winners consisted of: one team of a boy and girl, one guy, and three girls. By your logic, men don't have the competitive drive that women do from this example of hairdressing and women don't have the competitive drive that men do by your example of gaming. Your argument is flawed by nature.

 

[Blackavar]

Wait so of five winners in hairstyling two were men? So forty percent? That's relatively even, and culled from a very small sample size... Now what percentage of smash nationals, or Starcraft wc's or chess wc's are won by wome?(hint, it's waaaay less than 40%)

Give up? Okay, it's 0 percent!

 

[Blackavar]

Also things like hairdressing, makeup artistry, and arts and crafts do not require quick thinking and reflexes/speed, which are all things higher testosterone help with.

And king piano, what holes in my logic can you find? I didn't even make any arguments through reasoning in the post you quoted...

 

[Comet7]

it's less of "oh their brains are fundamentally different", but more that they just aren't interested. the smash community so far has been mainly male, so that's a barrier in itself. then there's the fact that a lot of people in gaming communities use terminology like **** which, i'm assuming, is also a turn off. and while we're mainly past the time where culture divides men and women to specific roles, we're still somewhat caught in the recoil of this, since everyone's parents and what not are from a generation where it was more common.

as for women having less testosterone, that just means there are less women interested in winning, which doesn't equate to being worse.

ACTUALLY RELEVANT TO THE TOPIC

tiers separate the levels of viability between characters. i think that the current (outdated and inaccurate) tier list should have 2 or 3 more tiers to separate viability.

 

[Blackavar]

The difference in brain chemistry makes them worse. It's not a cultural thing (well okay a lot of it is).

 

[Superspright]

Blackavar I hope you are 12 or something to be so misinformed and naive. Regardless of your age it's quite clear you don't have much experience with women (and I'm sure they'd want to have nothing to do with you)

Sample size is the only reason really. You don't see that much interest from females in the first place for videogames or eSports, so it's like 1:500. You can't really even compare the two genders in such a lopsided hobby. Just like in industries like Make-Up, Hairdressing, etc you don't see any straight men dominating the top spots, it's mostly all Women. It's just boils down to the gender's interests in the activity/sport/industry.

And women can be even more competitive than men but they show it in different ways, most commonly in trying to attract men by competing with other women CONSTANTLY. And professionally in sectors of the industry that involve Beauty, Fashion, Dancing, and so on. Sports have never been and will probably never be something that Women surpass Men in on a competitive level, but they don't aspire to either. Just like straight men don't care about make-up or aspire to be better at make-up artists than women.

You're a fool. He's not 12 or misinformed. You are. Do your research. The top-level athletes in every sport are always men. Men always have an advantage. Prove us wrong. We're not talking about the way women are good at putting on make-up and ****, because if we are then why do MEN DO IT BETTER?

Men are better hair-dressers. Men are better make-up artists...you picked some real **** examples.

Women don't aspire to it because they know they can't beat us. Why try when the person you're up against is stronger, faster, and smarter than you? Why bother at all? Why not just be pretty?

 

[Spak]

Wait so of five winners in hairstyling two were men? So forty percent? That's relatively even, and culled from a very small sample size... Now what percentage of smash nationals, or Starcraft wc's or chess wc's are won by wome?(hint, it's waaaay less than 40%)

Give up? Okay, it's 0 percent!

That's you limiting your sample to things that women traditionally aren't drawn to (partially because some are just not interested, partially because of social norms you and others that think like you set for them). The hairdresser example is a wonderful example and I'm glad you brought it up. There are less women in the field and more women winning national tournaments than men, showing that they are (by your definition) more competitive than men. Your ability to soak up information and form an intelligent counterargument is fairly weak if you just state a point @ kingPiano proved irrelevant on the last page.

You're a fool. He's not 12 or misinformed. You are. Do your research. The top-level athletes in every sport are always men. Men always have an advantage. Prove us wrong. We're not talking about the way women are good at putting on make-up and ****, because if we are then why do MEN DO IT BETTER?

Men are better hair-dressers. Men are better make-up artists...you picked some real **** examples.

Women naturally have weaker muscles, true, but I wouldn't say that we are always mentally superior to them. For instance, my sister is currently at a $50,000 university doing computational chemistry research during the summer on a paid internship. She beat out a LOT of men getting to her position and is currently thriving at the top of her field (at the college level).

By the way, the hair dressing competition proved that men don't do it better, even when there are more of them fighting for the top spot. As for proving you wrong, we already did; you're just having trouble comprehending it with your closed-mindedness.

 

[Comet7]

having less desire doesn't mean worse. let's take users of low tiers and their characters (first thing that came to mind) as an example. triple R destroys people with kirby. pichu, who is really close to where kirby is on the tier list (i used close to not start a tier list debate) doesn't have anybody who has stuck to him and put in the effort that triple R has with kirby. does that prove that kirby is a better character? no, that only proves that kirby has had better results in tournaments than pichu has.

 

[Blackavar]

having less desire doesn't mean worse. let's take users of low tiers and their characters (first thing that came to mind) as an example. triple R destroys people with kirby. pichu, who is really close to where kirby is on the tier list (i used close to not start a tier list debate) doesn't have anybody who has stuck to him and put in the effort that triple R has with kirby. does that prove that kirby is a better character? no, that only proves that kirby has had better results in tournaments than pichu has.

But... They are worse... Women perform worse than men in competitive arenas. Always.

 

[Spak]

But... They are worse... Women perform worse than men in competitive arenas. Always.

I've lost to a girl before. Does that automatically change my gender?

 

[Blackavar]

I've lost to a girl before. Does that automatically change my gender?

Dear God you're dumb. When speaking in generalities you should take it in general... Women are generally worse as a gender than men, at ssbm, this is an indisputable fact as every single national and international... ever... has been won by a male player.

 

[Spak]

Dear God you're dumb. When speaking in generalities you should take it in general... Women are generally worse as a gender than men, at ssbm, this is an indisputable fact as every single national and international... ever... has been won by a male player.

And there are significantly less women trying to win a national at Melee... Note the lack of women in the scene, even on a local level (I haven't ever gone up against a woman in a bracket at my local). I took it into a field where the playing field for women and men is more even (a field both genders are attracted to) and lo and behold, the women pulled out in the lead, even while being at a minority (although MUCH more slight).

I'm not saying that women and men are equal in everything; they excel in different areas. What you're saying is that fish are better than dogs because fish swim better.

 

[Blackavar]

They are better at swimming. Men are better at competing.

 

[Spak]

They are better at swimming. Men are better at competing.

No, men are better at a lot of stuff physically because the testosterone naturally helps muscle building. Women are better at a lot of a decent amount of mental stuff.

 

[1MachGO]

Women aren't interested in the same things as men are because their brain chemistry is fundamentally different, if they weren't we would see roughly equal representation in everything.

I've never heard of a hairdressing competition, but I suppose they do happen, are you familiar enough with the hairdressing tourney scene to claim that men aren't represented? Men are well represented in fields like fashion design and interior decorating. I suspect men are well represented in make up as well, but I don't know.

Also it's a little ironic that you're suggesting I have an ignorant/misogynistic view of women while your idea of what they can excell at is hairdressing, fashion, makeup and competing over men... Real enlightened bro.

You have no concept of nature vs. nurture. Sports and other forms of competitive entertainment are not biologically innate; society produces and subsequently introduces its members to them. Human beings are not innately collectivist or self-oriented, but a eastern society is more likely to mold you into the former and a western one the latter.

Likewise, there is no evidence to suggest that men and women cannot compete equally as mental athletes. Women are poorly represented thanks to society and discouraging attitudes such as sexism (which you are exhibit A of).

 

[Blackavar]

Sports don't rely on traits which are biologically innate? Ell oh ell.

And there is tons of evidence to suggest that women can't compete equally in mental sports, the evidence is they absolutely never win tournaments. What you need to provide is evidence that they can compete equally.

 

[Spak]

What you need to provide is evidence that they can compete equally.

I already showed proof that women have won competitions.

EDIT: Also, look at the DoA4 rankings. 4 of the top 7 are women. Even if most women aren't attracted to video game competitive scenes, they can still dominate

 

[kingPiano]

This has turned into the "My opinion on Women" thread

Featuring the troll twins superspright and Blackavar.

Seriously guys if you want to continue this misguided conversation take it to a group chat or in the proper forums such as the Debate Hall
http://smashboards.com/forums/debate-hall.23/
(a place where many other unintelligent and misinformed people bicker about things they really don't have a full understanding on)

For the past 50 posts this conversation has had nothing to do with the original thread, and it also pretty much has nothing to do with Melee anymore.

To all else I highly suggest not continuing this dialogue with those two. It's quite apparent they are looking to instigate responses, and they are ill-equipped to talk about scientific studies and gender differences in an unbiased informed manner.

But do what you like with your time, however I think it would be wasted and already has been.

 

[Blackavar]

They can dominate? Are you seriously this delusional?

 

[Spak]

They can dominate? Are you seriously this delusional?

I'm not delusional and I gave you ranking evidence in a fighting game (via your request, although we still shouldn't be judging them based off of a baseline that is tilted in the men's favor because of the sheer amount of us interested in competitive gaming) and frankly, I don't see any other possible ways for you to argue male supremacy. I agree with KingPiano that we should stop hijacking this thread and take this to a debate hall if you so desire, but I will not continue arguing on this thread.

 

[Blackavar]

I'm not delusional and I gave you ranking evidence in a fighting game (via your request, although we still shouldn't be judging them based off of a baseline that is tilted in the men's favor because of the sheer amount of us interested in competitive gaming) and frankly, I don't see any other possible ways for you to argue male supremacy. I agree with KingPiano that we should stop hijacking this thread and take this to a debate hall if you so desire, but I will not continue arguing on this thread.

Uh... You don't see how I could argue for male supremacy in esports? How about... Men win 99% of national esports tournaments?

You really are very very stupid friend.

 

[EddyBearr]

Pretty sure the evidence for both the nature argument and the nurture argument is lacking and it's hard to claim one is right or the other.

 

[Shaya]

Just going to lock this as this type of topic can either be searched to see the same conclusions of some 50 million times, or just gotten rid of because of the off-topicness it produces.

Reaction speed is an important part of competitive [video] gaming, and I am to believe studies existing showing the male/female discrepancy. [not 100% sure though]
In other sports of physicality, there is little denying it.

Beyond that though, half of this counter argument (to what people chose to take a bit more sanely than what was originally said, good-ish job to them; although replying to it at all was "spam worthy") was the attempt to argue statistical outliers; nothing stopping any human being better than 99% of the population, heck 90% or more of the competition as well. The guy who said women aren't good at competitive anything is an idiot, although obviously the breadth of competition people envisage is sport, where those commercialized are primarily men-competing.