My one major issue with Project M

[duffmmann]

Let me start by saying, I love Project M, I do. But if I have to be honest, there is one change that's been made that I just hate. The handling of Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard is really disappointing to me. I love the Pokemon trainer, especially his ability to rotate between 3 characters, a lightweight, middleweight, and heavyweight was truly unique and required a different type of strategy than all other characters. But by making them 3 separate characters, the magic of these characters is lost a little bit on me. Plus this extends the pokemon roster from the 4 originally in Brawl to 7 (thanks to the inclusion of Mewtwo which truly is fantastic). I really do feel like that looks like over representation of one franchise. But the worst part of it all is the smash ball, if you are one of these characters and destroy a smash ball, the ball disappears, but the pokemon has no special, it becomes a handicap.​

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Now, it is cool that they each have a new move now, but the hacking community had long ago found a way to give these characters each a single new move by linking it to one of their taunts, thereby still retaining the ability to be called back and a new one thrown out. I think this is simply a better and more effective solution if the issue was only about giving the characters each a new move, though I'm sure its more than just that.​

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Point is, I miss the Pokemon Trainer and am disappointed the 3 pokemon become separate characters that can't be switched between. ​

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Is there possibly a way to revert just these characters into the one they once were all the while keeping everything else about Project M? That would be pretty fantastic.​

 

[GP&B]

I can't recall the full reasoning behind it, but I'll just straight up say PT's not coming back.

 

[duffmmann]

I can't recall the full reasoning behind it, but I'll just straight up say PT's not coming back.

That is super disappointing to me. One of my favorite unique characters that I learned to dominate with. Now I have no interest of just being one of the pokemon. Also sucks that they lose final smashes, why do they have to become crippled? So lame.

 

[Bazkip]

iirc there's some difficulties with adding final smashes for each of them, so it hasn't been done yet, but it will be done (hopefully) soon.

 

[Vashimus]

The simple answer is by having them be 3 separate characters, it's a heck of a lot easier to balance them compared to leaving them as 3 characters combined.

The PKMN Trainer Pokemon being separated is one the things I love about Project M. No more forced switching, stamina system, and elemental weaknesses to deal with either.

As far as over-representation of the franchise, Pokemon has always had more playable characters than any other franchise in Smash games (most in Brawl, second only to Zelda in Melee, tied with Mario for most in 64). The sheer number playable Pokemon was something that just happened. Blame Sakurai.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

That is super disappointing to me. One of my favorite unique characters that I learned to dominate with. Now I have no interest of just being one of the pokemon. Also sucks that they lose final smashes, why do they have to become crippled? So lame.

Aww don't feel bad. If you try out the three new Pokemon they all feel fun to play with. I DO miss the Pokemon Trainer himself, though. It was neat how in Brawl you finally got the chance to play the main protagonist of Pokemon instead of just the mascot and some others. What I can hope for (in my wildest dreams) is a new Pokemon character that creates the Pokemon Trainer in the background. While I'm not a huge Pichu supporter for the clone engine, it'd be neat if he was brought back being commanded by him. Then it'd make sense if he was on even ground with Pikachu and the others since canonically wild Pokemon are weaker than those raised by a trainer.

 

[Vashimus]

But you were never playing as the Pokemon Trainer. You were playing as the three Pokemon. Even in the win screen it says the name whatever Pokemon is out. Again, PKMN Trainer isn't a character, it's a concept that ultimately limited the potential of 3 totally different characters.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

All I'm saying is him returning and only being a part of the background, in a gameplay sense, would be a nice way to bring him back.

 

[duffmmann]

The simple answer is by having them be 3 separate characters, it's a heck of a lot easier to balance them compared to leaving them as 3 characters combined.

The PKMN Trainer Pokemon being separated is one the things I love about Project M. No more forced switching, stamina system, and elemental weaknesses to deal with either.

As far as over-representation of the franchise, Pokemon has always had more playable characters than any other franchise in Smash games (most in Brawl, second only to Zelda in Melee, tied with Mario for most in 64). The sheer number playable Pokemon was something that just happened. Blame Sakurai.

Just give me the option to choose a version of Project M where its back in one character, if this becomes a balance issue, me and my friends, simply do not give a ****, we're not trying to join any professional tournaments. It becomes less over representation of the franchise when they're merged back into one character, don't know how you can argue otherwise.

I personally loved learning the stamina system and learning how to strategize with such a unique character. You're cons are all things that I liked about the trainer and really made him great, because I understood how to dominate with him, and I loved the ability to switch between 3 very different characters.

But you were never playing as the Pokemon Trainer. You were playing as the three Pokemon. Even in the win screen it says the name whatever Pokemon is out. Again, PKMN Trainer isn't a character, it's a concept that ultimately limited the potential of 3 totally different characters.

Way to miss the point entirely. If they returned the ability to switch between the 3 pokemon and didn't have the trainer in the background, that would not be an issue at all (though I'd question why they removed him). And at least the trainer was clearly Red from the franchise, was cool to see human representation from the franchise and not simply the monsters.

 

[Kes]

The characters didn't "boost" the size of the Pokemon roster by being separate. It was three separate characters with three separate movesets and balancing beforehand, it's the same now. It didn't jump from 4 characters to 6. It was always 6 characters even in vBrawl. Now its only one more with Mewtwo.

 

[Ginge]

The only difference was in looks. By having one icon on the character select screen, it seems like less characters. But as Kes said, there were 6 even if it seemed like 4.

 

[duffmmann]

The characters didn't "boost" the size of the Pokemon roster by being separate. It was three separate characters with three separate movesets and balancing beforehand, it's the same now. It didn't jump from 4 characters to 6. It was always 6 characters even in vBrawl. Now its only one more with Mewtwo.

Thats obviously not true. Do you consider Zelda and Sheik separate characters, or part of one character that requires different understanding depending on the form you take? Same for Samus and ZSS. Granted that technically all 3 pokemon are different pokemon, but all 3 were controlled by one character, I never considered these guys as separate characters, but rather collectively 3 forms that make up one character, and the stamina system has a lot to do with this. PT was my second best character, and one of my all time favorite at that. Now with them all separated, my enthusiasm and willing to play as any one of them has dwindled significantly. I don't like any one enough to simply play as that pokemon, i love them all working together though as I was able to put together brilliant strategies that utilized all three.

 

[duffmmann]

The only difference was in looks. By having one icon on the character select screen, it seems like less characters. But as Kes said, there were 6 even if it seemed like 4.

Again, I'm gonna disagree. The trainer was his own character that essentially had 3 forms in the same was that Zelda and Samus had 2. In Brawl I consider the roster of pokemon to be 4 because if you're the PT, you can switch between the 3 and this was done on purpose so you could learn unique strategies. Now you don't have that option to switch, so each pokemon becomes its own character and fighter that you can't switch behind and it looks like over representation. Plus, what ever made Ivysaur on its own so prolific that it should be its own character? The PT was obviously Red, who was prolific and it was cool to play as him and the pokemon that he had captured.

 

[Kes]

I consider Zelda and Sheik separate characters. I also consider Samus and Zero Suit Samus separate characters. So do the tier lists. They each take just as much development time and balancing as any other character. It doesn't "save a slot" to stick them together on the selection screen.

 

[duffmmann]

All these points are really moot anyway though. The point is there are people that loved the PT and don't like how they've been separated into separte characters. If the project M guys could just create an alt version which re-implements the PT even if the game becomes unbalanced (never been a thing I cared much about), I would greatly love it, I would have no complaints if they did that. But yeah, I'm not holding my breath, just thought I'd share my frustration on this subject.

 

[duffmmann]

I consider Zelda and Sheik separate characters. I also consider Samus and Zero Suit Samus separate characters. So do the tier lists. They each take just as much development time and balancing as any other character. It doesn't "save a slot" to stick them together on the selection screen.

Well I guess some people such as myself view this subject differently. If I choose a character that can change forms in a battle, I consider it all to be a part of that one character. You really can't convince me otherwise on my point of view on this subject. And really the over-representation of the franchise is the smallest part of this issue that bothers me anyway.

 

[Ginge]

Yes. I consider Samus and Zero Suit as separate characters. And I consider Zelda and Sheik as separate characters, too.

Just learn all three of the PT Pokemon separately. And cycle through them when you play people. They are all much better than they were in Brawl.

 

[Vashimus]

Yes, Zelda and Sheik are separate characters. Save for sharing their down-B, they have completely different movesets, physics and play nothing alike. Same for Samus and ZSS, and all three of the Pokemon Trainer Pokemon. You were playing as the Pokemon the whole time, not as Red. It's not missing the point, it's just how it is.

 

[Kes]

Even though you don't care about balance, that's one of the biggest goals of this mod. To make every character competitively viable, and most of the users playing it and the team developing it do care about balance.

 

[duffmmann]

Yes. I consider Samus and Zero Suit as separate characters. And I consider Zelda and Sheik as separate characters, too.

Just learn all three of the PT Pokemon separately. And cycle through them when you play people. They are all much better than they were in Brawl.

I can use all 3 separately, thats not the issue. The issue is I loved how they were originally handled, and I hate the change they've made here in Project M. Its the only thing I think that is a negative for this project. I really would love if the team could just make an alt version for anyone such as myself that loves the original strategy you had to utilize when playing as the PT.

 

[duffmmann]

Even though you don't care about balance, that's one of the biggest goals of this mod. To make every character competitively viable, and most of the users playing it and the team developing it do care about balance.

I am not saying give up the balance for Project M, I'm just saying if its a small change, make an alt version of Project M for anyone that doesn't care about balance and prefers the PT much more to 3 separate characters.

 

[Kes]

That would require a lot more work, and undoing of work they already did, than I think you realise.

 

[Ginge]

The only way they'd be able to do that is have a hidden taunt that switches between the characters. You are in a very vocal minority that dislikes the Pokemon separate. I, for one, love playing Bubblegum Squirtle. My friend only uses Charizard. And we have a third friend that mostly uses Ivysaur. But none of us use 2 or 3 of the Pokémon from PT as our mains. They are such different styles.

Also: forced swap on death / stamina / type advantages? Unneeded.

 

[duffmmann]

That would require a lot more work, and undoing of work they already did, than I think you realise.

I did say IF its a small change. Its just a major disappointment for me, but I suppose we can't always get what we want. Sucks though, I'm never gonna play as those characters in Project M anymore, as separate characters I don't enjoy any one enough to constantly play as.

 

[duffmmann]

The only way they'd be able to do that is have a hidden taunt that switches between the characters. You are in a very vocal minority that dislikes the Pokemon separate. I, for one, love playing Bubblegum Squirtle. My friend only uses Charizard. And we have a third friend that mostly uses Ivysaur. But none of us use 2 or 3 of the Pokémon from PT as our mains. They are such different styles.

Also: forced swap on death / stamina / type advantages? Unneeded.

All a part of the strategies of using the PT. Its really missed on my end. I may be in the minority, doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to be disappointed by this change.

 

[JOE!]

1) I played PT as a main in brawl, I got over it, so can you (Didn't really like squirtle anyways)

2) They're not gonna change the game just for you and your friends. If able, you could research / ask a modder how to do it for your own personal use.

3) You never actually played as the Pokemon trainer, you played as Squirtle, ivysaur and Charizard.

4) Bringing PT back would actually make MORE over-representation as Squirt/Ivy/Zard ARE STILL THERE, + THE TRAINER!

 

[duffmmann]

1) I played PT as a main in brawl, I got over it, so can you (Didn't really like squirtle anyways)

2) They're not gonna change the game just for you and your friends. If able, you could research / ask a modder how to do it for your own personal use.

3) You never actually played as the Pokemon trainer, you played as Squirtle, ivysaur and Charizard.

4) Bringing PT back would actually make MORE over-representation as Squirt/Ivy/Zard ARE STILL THERE, + THE TRAINER!

1. I liked all 3 working together. Yes I can and will get over it, doesn't mean I'm not disappointed.

2. Just asking if its a small change and if so, would anyone be cool enough to make the change for an alt version (not just for me and my friends as I'm sure there are others taht would like this too), don't really expect anyone to, just thought I'd ask. Or as you said could someone explain to me what I should do to remedy the situation? If I knew what to do, I'd put it all together and share with those that miss this feature as much as I do.

3. What's your point? You honestly think I didn't know this?

4. My perception of over-representation of the franchise is the smallest problem I have with this issue. Even if these were the only pokemon in the game, I'd love for them to still be back as one character as I really really loved the strategy of switching between 3 pokemon.


Some of you people seem way to hurt that I could take issue with this, I don't get it, I'm just sharing my frustration at an aspect of an otherwise great game. I guess this will just be the one thing in Brawl that I like way more than in Project M.

 

[CORY]

I did say IF its a small change.

it's not.

pt isn't coming back.

go play them seperately or just don't play them.

done, problem solved.

 

[duffmmann]

it's not.

pt isn't coming back.

go play them seperately or just don't play them.

done, problem solved.

Guess I wont play them. Sucks to lose one of my favorite characters.

I would put it together myself if someone could give me some direction on this, but based on the feedback I'm seeing in this thread, I don't think anyone would be cool enough to help me out on that issue.

 

[Ginge]

You're double posting, you ignore what we're saying, and we're not going to change your mind or vice versa. It's not a small change to re-add the trainer in the background for some of the time, and have him not there at others. They might be able to have a transform effect as a secret taunt like the Navi taunt or Squirtle being able to put on his Squirtle Squad shades. But that would break a lot of the balance put into the game.

For instance, if you're at a tournament and the other player is choosing Charizard, you'll want to pick stages that he wouldn't dominate at. But then, as soon as the match starts, he switches to Squirtle and it's a completely different matchup than you were expecting.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

It wouldn't be a small change though. You're basically asking them to put work into making two completely different versions of Project M and balancing the game in a manner that allows that. I get that you're bummed out about it but each Pokemon is definitely better not being connected to eachother directly now. We got Bubble/Seed Bomb/High Jump from it. I'd say that's good enough.

 

[JOE!]

1. I liked all 3 working together. Yes I can and will get over it, doesn't mean I'm not disappointed.

2. Just asking if its a small change and if so, would anyone be cool enough to make the change for an alt version (not just for me and my friends as I'm sure there are others taht would like this too), don't really expect anyone to, just thought I'd ask. Or as you said could someone explain to me what I should do to remedy the situation? If I knew what to do, I'd put it all together and share with those that miss this feature as much as I do.

Its that you are making a big deal about it being a "small change" when they have been crafted to work solo... it'd be like linking Mario, Luigi and Wario together just SUDDENLY after all this time: why do it?

Also, PT in brawl didn't benefit from switching all too much as oddly, the mons had a lot of similar strengths and weaknesses leading to many similar MU spreads, or MU's where only ONE of them was good and the other two get stomped, leading to lopsided play. Stamina was also a rather stupid mechanic as it then made those MU's so much worse as it punished you for staying with the only one that worked in that fight. Balancing them to work as a cohesive unit was also derailed due to load times really preventing you from doing anything mid-fight as opposed to between stocks or such when it comes to swapping between them at any practical speed, even with the ledge cancel tricks they could do. I for one love how they have been fleshed out now as individual characters as it not only accomplishes the 3 for 1 deal PT was designed for, but also allowed them to actually stand out other than being "oh, the PT mons".

MOST people are actually excited that they get to just solo one of the mons now, its actually quite a rarity to hear people complain that the trainer mechanic is gone.

3. What's your point? You honestly think I didn't know this?

4. My perception of over-representation of the franchise is the smallest problem I have with this issue. Even if these were the only pokemon in the game, I'd love for them to still be back as one character as I really really loved the strategy of switching between 3 pokemon.

My point being one of your arguments was that PT coming back would be making them one character... it wouldn't as even with him you played three. On the same note, since there were always three, adding PT back would inflate your over-rep problem.

Some of you people seem way to hurt that I could take issue with this, I don't get it, I'm just sharing my frustration at an aspect of an otherwise great game. I guess this will just be the one thing in Brawl that I like way more than in Project M.

We do get it, its just that you are calling out for a change that at this point either can't be done or at the most is astronomically unlikely. That said, I would like to see the PT back in -some- manner as it is kind of a waste that he was simply removed. Even if he were an Assist Trophy or something would be neat.

 

[duffmmann]

You're double posting, you ignore what we're saying, and we're not going to change your mind or vice versa. It's not a small change to re-add the trainer in the background for some of the time, and have him not there at others. They might be able to have a transform effect as a secret taunt like the Navi taunt or Squirtle being able to put on his Squirtle Squad shades. But that would break a lot of the balance put into the game.

For instance, if you're at a tournament and the other player is choosing Charizard, you'll want to pick stages that he wouldn't dominate at. But then, as soon as the match starts, he switches to Squirtle and it's a completely different matchup than you were expecting.

Read my posts, I am not ignoring what you're saying, I'm acknowledging them then explaining my point of view. This whole discussion is giving me a gross taste in my mouth in terms of the Project M community.

Again in terms of balance, I don't know how to make this any more clear, I'm not looking for an official release, but some sort of alternate release. Again, if someone could give me some direction on what I need to do to make what I miss come back in the game, I'd do it myself and then share with anyone else that my be interested in such a version.

 

[Vashimus]

Like take an instance where you'd WANT to stay as a certain Pokemon for a matchup, but you're forced to switch because of stamina or when you die.

EDIT: Damn you JOE!

 

[Korrag]

Adding a separate version version for one change is never a smart idea. I've seen it happen in a lot of other games, ff there were to be a release with the 3 Pokemon added back to one character just to cater to a few select people, others will start requesting slight changes to fit their needs as well. Like adding back snakes nikita, or old Lucas aerials, ect. the list can go on forever, eventually ending up in a massive amount of versions and/or requests for versions to fit specific people.

 

[Ginge]

Well, if you want to implement it yourself, I don't even know where to tell you to start. You'd need to take out the files that remove the trainer from existing (which, currently, freezes your game and prevents it from running). And probably link the three Pokemon with a taunt. PMBR won't be making the PT as a unit for you, but they'd be the people to ask HOW to do it if you really need it that badly.

 

[Mono.]

I know people in the back room, bro. They said they're going to completely rehaul what's been done and loved by many to appeal to your personal preferences so don't worry.

 

[GP&B]

Read my posts, I am not ignoring what you're saying, I'm acknowledging them then explaining my point of view. This whole discussion is giving me a gross taste in my mouth in terms of the Project M community.

Sorry what? You can't go headfirst into an argument declaring that you're extremely unlikely to be convinced otherwise and somehow expect people to take that notion lightly. People are going to respond just as strongly regardless of what community because you effectively just asked them to lay you out.

 

[Rᴏb]

Sorry bud, I don't see it happening.

Will you live?

 

[Strong Badam]

Do you just have no consideration at all for the people that, like you, would not really be interested in PM if they were rejoined? There are several people who have put hundreds of hours into playing PM (not Smash, not Brawl, but Project M) with Squirtle, Ivysaur, or Charizard individually. Why do you feel your opinion on the matter is more important?

Anyway, the rationale for separating them was simple.
1. Balancing a character with potential match-up immunity due to not having to choose a character until the game has already begun is extremely difficult, so each individual Pokémon would need to be relatively mediocre in the grand scheme of things. This would then frustrate Pokémon Trainer's players due to being in an environment filled with several very capable characters yet being doomed to mediocrity just because they are forced to be together.
2. Several players were interested in either of Squirtle, Ivysaur, or Charizard individually, but being forced to make use of all 3 turned thousands off from the idea. Separating them also gave each of them access to a new Special move.

Needless to say, I'm afraid your desire will never be a reality. You won't be able to use them together in PM, and there will never be a version of PM made specifically for you in which you can. It's not feasible. It isn't a single code that prevents them from switching. Removing some of them would cause a switch to crash. Sorry buddy.