My Dream Patch 1.2.0 Part 2: Nerfs

[J.A. Gamer]

This is just my idea of a great hypothetical balance patch for Smash 4

Now somethings to know about me: I kinda suck
I LOVE customs, especially thinking of them in a hypothetical way on what would happen pre-release if some characters had their customs

If in the true impossibility that this ever gets done, their will need to be a revision 2 weeks later to account for overbuffs and overnerfs, as well as several later patches in the months after to iron out any kinks

Some controversial and probably knee-jerk stupid stuff here, but let's go anyway


Bayonetta

Up-B – 60% normal height with Frame 8 startup

Side B- Angle change to 30° (from 45)

Down B – Remove Bat Within Frames and Frame 8 Counter

Nair- Halve duration and Decrease Hitbox size

Bair- Greatly reduce KB

Uair- Full double spin automatic (increase endlag)

Airdodge – Bat Within Frames in middle of airdodge with 8 way controllability of bats (more counterattack than ecape option)

Remove triple jump glitch



Cloud

Down B – 5 frames more startup, 7 frames more endlag and 20 seconds to full charge

Side B – First 2 swings automatic, (Limit) 15 frames more endlag

Nair – 2 frames more startup and 2 frames more endlag with 4 less Active Frames

Uair- Removal of Z axis, 4 frames more startup, 4 frames more endlag, 8 less Active Frames and KB and dmg reduced

Dair- 4 frames more startup, 6 frames more endlag, 12 less Active Frames and No autocancel

Bair- KB greatly reduced and 2 frames more startup

Fair- 4 Frames more startup

LIMIT RESTORES OLD AERIALS (Potential Risky Change)


Diddy Kong

Side -B – Changed to Flying Monkey Flip

Down B- Banana peel only able to be used once (not able to pick up after thrown) with Pull Animation speed same as Link bomb

D-Tilt – 2 frame more startup and 3 frames more endlag

F-air – 3 frames more startup

Up-smash – Reduced KB

F-Smash- Reduced KB



Sheik

Neutral-B – Double charge time

Down-B – Reduced KB

Up-air – Reduced KB

(that was simple)



Rosalina and Luma (Major Change Alert)

For all Luma attacks drastically reduce KB & Dmg and Luma HP reduced to 30

Down-B- 15 frames more endlag

Up-smash- Hitbox size decreased with KB reduced



Zero Suit Samus

Up-B – Angle changed to 60° (From 89)

Down-B- Changed to Low Kick



Fox

Up-air – Reduce dmg and Reduce KB

Bair- Reduced KB

Up-Smash – Reduced KB



Sonic (MAJOR KNEEJERK/SALT ALERT)
Side-B – Hop no longer intangible
Grab from charge causes dash grab
Shield from charge causes hop to skid animation

Back-throw- Restored to pre-patch (quick buff in case it is too much)




Mario

Up-Smash- Head no longer intangible and KB reduced

Up-B – KB reduced

Uair- KB increased slightly




Mewtwo

Tail length decreased by 20%

Neutral-B – KB slightly decresed

Fair- KB decreased

Airdodge – 3 more vulnerable frames after



Marth

Sword base 5% less dmg ,KB, shieldstun etc.
Sword tip 15% less dmg, KB, sheildstun etc.



Ryu

Up-tilt (Light)- 2 frames more startup 5 frames more endlag

D-tilt (Light)– 2 frames more startup 5 frames more endlag

Up-B (All versions) – 7% less KB



Corrin

Side-B – Tipper hitboxes removed
Instant pin removed (same timing as aerial version)


Lucina

Sword 10% less effective



Pikachu

Up-B – Frame Data and dmg of Meteor Quick Attack



Meta Knight (Major Change Alert)

Up-B- Changed to Blade Coaster (now here me out)

Neutral-B – KB changed to Dreadful Tornado (buff to help replace Shuttle Loop)

Side-B – Speed and Range matched to High Speed Drill normal curving of Drill Rush (buff to help replace Shuttle Loop)

Down-B – KB changed to Stealth Smasher (buff to help replace Shuttle Loop)

Up-air – Angle changed to Pre-patch (buff to help replace Shuttle Loop)



Lucario

Aura increase lowered to mitigate rage


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Feel free to tell me how much these changes suck and that I am salty against top tiers, or ask why I did something

 

[Hotcakes]

I'm curious what power level you're trying to reach with every character. In your opinion, who is the most balanced character in the game? I've been working on a similar project for a few months and I'm striving to have everyone at around Mario's level. Also, I'm wondering if you would consider giving Lucario something to make up for the Aura changes. How much have you lowered Aura's potency exactly? Oh, and I think you added too much endlag to Rosa's gravitational pull.

 

[Atem]

Overall great design. Only a couple changes I would make like Rosalina up air would change it be slower. I would also not change mewtwo due to its glass cannon like play style. Great changes over all.

 

[J.A. Gamer]

I'm curious what power level you're trying to reach with every character. In your opinion, who is the most balanced character in the game? I've been working on a similar project for a few months and I'm striving to have everyone at around Mario's level. Also, I'm wondering if you would consider giving Lucario something to make up for the Aura changes. How much have you lowered Aura's potency exactly? Oh, and I think you added too much endlag to Rosa's gravitational pull.

IMO, the most balanced characters in Sm4sh are Cpt. Falcon, Luigi, Olimar, DK and Peach, as they are characters with unique and powerful strengths (combo game, kill power,etc.) but with a noticeable and very punishable weakness (slow speed, landing, offstage etc.) that only the highest level and most dedicated players can overcome to reliably compete with top tiers. This IMO is what a well balanced charactee has: various good strengths, but a hard to overcome weakness that when done so by a highly skilled and dedicated player (Samsora, Fataility etc.) leaves a character that is unique and fun to watch who can fight on par with top tiers without needing overpowered atributes (like if peach was marth speed)


Well at 150% aura and full rage, Lucario now has around 1.6x KB, while without it the rage is about 1.45. If I had to change it, with my Love of Customs, I would give him Long Distance Force Palm for a more reliable projectile and an even stronger grab.

As For Rosaline, pardon my salt (and Ranai fangirling), but a move that invalidates a character (Villager's) entire game plan, as well as the jank in making the Ness matchup go from 60-40 to 80-20 with one move, I feel deserves quite a large nerf, so the move has to be used with caution and care in case Ranai has predicted you absorbing Lloyd and has a punish ready.

 

[Hotcakes]

IMO, the most balanced characters in Sm4sh are Cpt. Falcon, Luigi, Olimar, DK and Peach, as they are characters with unique and powerful strengths (combo game, kill power,etc.) but with a noticeable and very punishable weakness (slow speed, landing, offstage etc.) that only the highest level and most dedicated players can overcome to reliably compete with top tiers. This IMO is what a well balanced charactee has: various good strengths, but a hard to overcome weakness that when done so by a highly skilled and dedicated player (Samsora, Fataility etc.) leaves a character that is unique and fun to watch who can fight on par with top tiers without needing overpowered atributes (like if peach was marth speed)


Well at 150% aura and full rage, Lucario now has around 1.6x KB, while without it the rage is about 1.45. If I had to change it, with my Love of Customs, I would give him Long Distance Force Palm for a more reliable projectile and an even stronger grab.

As For Rosaline, pardon my salt (and Ranai fangirling), but a move that invalidates a character (Villager's) entire game plan, as well as the jank in making the Ness matchup go from 60-40 to 80-20 with one move, I feel deserves quite a large nerf, so the move has to be used with caution and care in case Ranai has predicted you absorbing Lloyd and has a punish ready.

There are likely 1-2 80-20 matchups in the entire game at most. The Ness Rosa matchup is very likely not any worse than -2 and is commonly called -1. Gravitational Pull is already very punishable with the high amount of end lag it has. Adding 15 frames more onto that just seems kinda silly. You could nerf the move in other ways, such as limiting the amount of time it can be held or slowing down the initial active frame. Oh and whenever you choose to change the knockback of something it would be nice if you specified whether you were changing the base knockback or the knockback growth.

 

[J.A. Gamer]

There are likely 1-2 80-20 matchups in the entire game at most. The Ness Rosa matchup is very likely not any worse than -2 and is commonly called -1. Gravitational Pull is already very punishable with the high amount of end lag it has. Adding 15 frames more onto that just seems kinda silly. You could nerf the move in other ways, such as limiting the amount of time it can be held or slowing down the initial active frame. Oh and whenever you choose to change the knockback of something it would be nice if you specified whether you were changing the base knockback or the knockback growth.

I don't know about that, I personally think Ness mains underrate just how bad the matchup while Rosa mains don't really practice the matchup muchas Ness sucks against three of the most vital things against Rosa, getting past Luma, killing Luma and recovering, even without GP. I can be proven worong though

The other nerfs to GP can also work thoug making it startup slower will make it significantly more difficult to use, rsther than more punishable, I just dont think the move is punishable enough right now. with the current endlag. Probably salt though

Yeah, I would have liked to, but I felt that the more specific I got, the more that testing would be needed to see what unindended effects could happen, so I kept it kinda vague

 

[xzx]

People don't want Rosalina's Gravitational Pull to have more endlag...? What the...? (Directed at Hotcakes and surely others who think the same.)

I would increase its start-up from Frame 2 -> Frame 8 and give it more endlag and less active frames. The move is broken and destroys projectile characters like Villager and Mii Gunner. It's such a low-risk ultra-high reward move that nerfing it to make it more balanced is more than justified. Please stop pretending that move is fine. (0_0") It isn't.

I cringe whenever people defend Rosalina lol.

 

[Atem]

People don't want Rosalina's Gravitational Pull to have more endlag...? What the...? (Directed at Hotcakes and surely others who think the same.)

I would increase its start-up from Frame 2 -> Frame 8 and give it more endlag and less active frames. The move is broken and destroys projectile characters like Villager and Mii Gunner. It's such a low-risk ultra-high reward move that nerfing it to make it more balanced is more than justified. Please stop pretending that move is fine. (0_0") It isn't.

I cringe whenever people defend Rosalina lol.

Pray for all the ness users

 

[Crystanium]

I don't see why Sheik would need to be nerfed again. And you went after her u-air? That's one of her kill moves. She doesn't have very good kill moves. I know you have a buff list. Why not just have both threads merged?

 

[Atem]

I don't see why Sheik would need to be nerfed again. And you went after her u-air? That's one of her kill moves. She doesn't have very good kill moves. I know you have a buff list. Why not just have both threads merged?

Still a good character that has remained top tier. Sheik also has more than one kill move (even though it combos into more set ups). She still has up-smash.

 

[SmolNozomi]

From the Keef Crew
"Cloud has a comeback mechanics, that he can charge. Think about that."

 

[Nah]

why remove instant pin?

 

[Crystanium]

Still a good character that has remained top tier. Sheik also has more than one kill move (even though it combos into more set ups). She still has up-smash.

Yes, Sheik is still a good character, but nerfing her u-air isn't a good idea because her kill moves aren't good in the first place. She has bouncing fish, u-smash, u-air, f-smash, and d-smash. Bouncing fish requires a set-up for the most part. U-smash is only truly effective if the opponent is above Sheik so that her wrists crossing each other does the hit. Otherwise, the angle of the attack launches the opponent at about maybe a 45 degree angle. I'm not too sure. I'm going off memory there. It's probably a little higher than that. U-air is fine as is. F-smash can kill, but if blocked, Sheik can be punished. D-smash only has two active hitboxes. This can be dodged and countered. I think Sheik is fine as is and doesn't require any nerfs.

 

[J.A. Gamer]

Yes, Sheik is still a good character, but nerfing her u-air isn't a good idea because her kill moves aren't good in the first place. She has bouncing fish, u-smash, u-air, f-smash, and d-smash. Bouncing fish requires a set-up for the most part. U-smash is only truly effective if the opponent is above Sheik so that her wrists crossing each other does the hit. Otherwise, the angle of the attack launches the opponent at about maybe a 45 degree angle. I'm not too sure. I'm going off memory there. It's probably a little higher than that. U-air is fine as is. F-smash can kill, but if blocked, Sheik can be punished. D-smash only has two active hitboxes. This can be dodged and countered. I think Sheik is fine as is and doesn't require any nerfs.

Sorry for replying so late, but I nerfed sheik because her neutral still invalidates so many low tiers it is crazy, however, nerfing her combo game and speed is against what Sheiks playstyle is, and also much easier to mess up. Nerfing her kill power further fits my balance idea of having a character with unique, recognizable strenghts (e.g. falcon speed, power) but a large weakness (recovery) that only the best and most dedicated players can overcome to see success at high level (Fatality). The needle nerf I feel does enough to her neutral, but I don't think it would be enough to bring all her other strengths down to Peach level, so I made her weakness more noticeable

 

[J.A. Gamer]

why remove instant pin?

Sorry for replying so late, but corrin's instapin for me gives her too fast an all-purpose option in too many situations with too much ranget hat is too hard to react to and too hard to punish IMO. Giving it the slower aerial timing would keep it's usefullness and range, but make it slightly more manageable to deal with in neuatral and a bit less safe, while still remaining faithful to corrin's strengths

 

[J.A. Gamer]

From the Keef Crew
"Cloud has a comeback mechanics, that he can charge. Think about that."

Not to meantion he can camp with and I can't realiably punish for getting his weakness removed and some mini final smashes added to his moveset. More lag, less power, that is the basis of my cloud nerfs