MultiVersus General Discussion - Shut Down planned for May 30.

[Guynamednelson]

that doesn't make enforcing shorter cycles ok

Well yeah, they're not anymore, but they were back then when a sequel could be just as much of an upgrade as Melee was while barely having more than 1 year of development.

They clearly needed more time

Them having more time wouldn't necessarily mean you'd get a decloned Ganondorf or Gen 2 rep that isn't Pichu. Ganondorf wasn't on their project plan in the first place, and delaying Melee wouldn't change Gen 2's marketing.

 

[GothicSlenderman]

Them having more time wouldn't necessarily mean you'd get a decloned Ganondorf or Gen 2 rep that isn't Pichu. Ganondorf wasn't on their project plan in the first place, and delaying Melee wouldn't change Gen 2's marketing.

It literally would? The entire reason Ganondorf was a clone of captain falcon was to save dev time? If they were given more time then they wouldn't have done that because they more options.

I genuinely don't know what you're trying to say here. Like that it's ok that Melee only had 13 months just because of the results?

 

[Guynamednelson]

It literally would? The entire reason Ganondorf was a clone of captain falcon was to save dev time?

Their plan was to have Peach, Bowser, Zelda, Sheik, ICs, Marth, Mewtwo, Mr. G&W, and no one else as the newcomers. Delaying wouldn't have changed that.

Like that it's ok that Melee only had 13 months just because of the results?

Yes.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I came to an epiphany last night. Why do games like Multiversus, NASB and PlayStation All-Stars end up the way they did? Easy, the studios that own these properties were way too controlling and they didn't give their devs enough freedom or dev time. Even Smash back in the 64 and Melee days had to deal with the same thing.

• Almost not being able to use Nintendo characters
• Almost being a Japan exclusive
• Melee only having a 13 month dev cycle
• No delays were allowed for either

Smash was only allowed to escape it because of its success. They gave more freedom to Sakurai and his team with Brawl, Sm4sh and Ultimate.

Even NASB2 had a tiny bit more freedom than the first game did.

But why was Smash allowed to escape the corporate meddling and not the others? Smash was the first of it's kind. Well technically not with games like Joust, The Outfoxies and Jump n' Bump but most people generally view Smash as the first. It unintentionally made things harder for future games. The general audience doesn't view platform fighters as a genre just yet. It's all clones or ripoffs to them.

But those 3 games and others probably could've succeeded and changed things but the problem was not (entirely) the devs but rather the studios than owned these IPs that were way too controlling.

I'd say that if you want a proper crossover platform fighter with a certain company it would probably be better if you made it a fangame and hoped you don't get DMCA'd. Because you would be able to have the roster and freedom you'd want.

If Disney, Xbox or Dreamworks made their own platform fighters they would probably go through the same thing. A company needs to be bold enough to break the cycle for change to come.

I think this is true to some extent, but I think this is far for the only reason those games don't succeed. First, Nasb wasn't really a failure considering that it was always a very low budget, I'd argue it was very succesful. For PSABR, I don't recall that Superbot lacked freedom, I remember that the team really tried hard to get third party characters and publishers were relunctant to give them their ip, but when it come to first party stuff aside from the weird Cole/Evil Cole case I don't recall reading anything that imply that Sony was very strict with how their ip was used. I also don't really recall reading WB being very strict with how Player first games used their ip. I think the only characters that, according to leaks, they had a hard time with was Scorpion from MK for some reason because of NRS.

 

[GothicSlenderman]

Yes.

That is a very flawed way to look at it then. Just because people like the results shouldn't make shorter dev cycles ok because that normalizes unhealthy practices. Just like when the Cuphead devs had to quit their jobs and remortgaged their homes just to finish their dream project. If we look at it as just "Look at how passionate they were for their game" it ignores the bigger problem of "Why is the game industry so bad that they had to go to such extremes" It's unhealthy and normalizes the problems that effect the industry to this day.

I think this is true to some extent, but I think this is far for the only reason those games don't succeed. First, Nasb wasn't really a failure considering that it was always a very low budget, I'd argue it was very succesful. For PSABR, I don't recall that Superbot lacked freedom, I remember that the team really tried hard to get third party characters and publishers were relunctant to give them their ip, but when it come to first party stuff aside from the weird Cole/Evil Cole case I don't recall reading anything that imply that Sony was very strict with how their ip was used. I also don't really recall reading WB being very strict with how Player first games used their ip. I think the only characters that, according to leaks, they had a hard time with was Scorpion from MK for some reason because of NRS.

The first NASB was successful. I don't know the exact numbers of the second though. But I would argue that Nick did effect the project from not allowing them to even have alternate colors, not allowing characters in the second game's campaign to refer to each other by name or how the devs had to fight to use certain characters.

PSASBR is unfortunately a lot of "he said, she said" and we might never learn what truly happened behind the scenes. If rumors are correct then Sony apparently didn't let the team interact with Activision or Team Ico for whatever reason, third party devs treating the game as a cross promotion machine and Sony's lack of marketing. It's a lot more muddy but it's clear that there were some factors effecting the team. We just don't the full extent.

As for Multiversus you've got stuff like WB and their predatory monetization practices that effect several of their games that overall played a big reason as to why many disliked the game.

You're right to say that it's not the only reason why these games were effected so badly. But it is one reoccurring theme that effected all of them. Including even Smash in it's early days.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

That is a very flawed way to look at it then. Just because people like the results shouldn't make shorter dev cycles ok because that normalizes unhealthy practices. Just like when the Cuphead devs had to quit their jobs and remortgaged their homes just to finish their dream project. If we look at it as just "Look at how passionate they were for their game" it ignores the bigger problem of "Why is the game industry so bad that they had to go to such extremes" It's unhealthy and normalizes the problems that effect the industry to this day.


The first NASB was successful. I don't know the exact numbers of the second though. But I would argue that Nick did effect the project from not allowing them to even have alternate colors, not allowing characters in the second game's campaign to refer to each other by name or how the devs had to fight to use certain characters.

PSASBR is unfortunately a lot of "he said, she said" and we might never learn what truly happened behind the scenes. If rumors are correct then Sony apparently didn't let the team interact with Activision or Team Ico for whatever reason, third party devs treating the game as a cross promotion machine and Sony's lack of marketing. It's a lot more muddy but it's clear that there were some factors effecting the team. We just don't the full extent.

As for Multiversus you've got stuff like WB and their predatory monetization practices that effect several of their games that overall played a big reason as to why many disliked the game.

You're right to say that it's not the only reason why these games were effected so badly. But it is one reoccurring theme that effected all of them. Including even Smash in it's early days.

Oh yeah I recall the Team Ico problem, but apparently this was mostly Fumito Ueda himself that was opposed because his game his "art" and he didn't see Ico and SOTC as good fit for the game.

For MVS, many recent rumors are saying that the monetization was actually PFG idea, but it's hard to tell who's really telling the truth. At the end of the day, we'll probably never know the full story.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Just because people like the results shouldn't make shorter dev cycles ok

I said they aren't anymore. Making a game that's as big as something like Melee with 2025-quality graphics, even if it is less content than its sequels, would still take way more work.

 

[Faso115]

A fix will be on the way for the Evil Jack skin.

Although this skin is currently unavailable, it is supposed to feature unique VO work by Phil Lamarr

You know i was wondering that, that's amazing actually

From the way i see it, the VO that wasn't datamined in season 1 was Raven, Marceline, Rowdyruff Boys, Lola and now Mad Jack

 

[Faso115]

Ok, here's how i feel about the characters we received in the relaunch

Gameplay wise i love most of them tho

 

[GothicSlenderman]

More people are playing Multiversus now than the past few months. Perhaps if we keep this momentum up it could get WB to reconsider shutting the game down.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Ok, here's how i feel about the characters we received in the relaunch
View attachment 398743

Gameplay wise i love most of them tho

I think Jason is an easy S tier addition and my favorite addition in the roster. He's kind of like Sephiroth in Smash where not a lot of people where predicting him or discussing him, but when you see him in the game it totally make sense that he's here. He's also the only characters that didn't leaked alongside Agent Smith, and Friday the 13th right are a huge mess, so is addition was really surprising.

 

[PeridotGX]

As much as the problems with this game go way beyond the roster, I still want to share what I would have done differently. In an ideal world this game would have lasted way longer, so think of it less as "cutting" characters, moreso delaying them.

Gandalf -> Wicked Witch. This one is probably cheating, but I don't care. Gandalf was probably done before they cut him, so by swapping him out for somebody else we basically get an extra fighter for free! The Wicked Witch totally deserved to be added, and since this is long before Wicked that shouldn't be an issue)
Reindog -> Maxwell (Scribblenauts). I don't hate Reindog or anything, but he's the easiest cut because nobody would know he existed if not for this game. As for Maxwell - I loved Scribblenauts as a kid. He's my pure bias pick.
Taz -> Daffy. I don't really care about the Looney Tunes, and even I think Daffy was robbed. Taz can wait.
Garnet -> Samurai Jack. Garnet's the first of a few swap-outs where I'm getting rid of one of two characters from one series to get another series in. It hurts to cut a Steven Universe character, but I really doubt it deserves two characters on a ~35 character roster. I remember the biggest roster critique at launch was the lack of legacy CN representation, I think moving Jack up should help with that.
Morty -> Sub-Zero (I think part of why interest cratered for beta S1 was the doubling up on characters per series. Morty deserves to be added, but he can wait a while. Mortal Kombat, on the other hand, is one of the biggest gaps on the roster)
Stripe -> Fred Flintstone Two Gremlins so early into the game's life was a baffling choice in retrospect. I was planning on cutting Gizmo and keeping Stripe, but with the other characters being added this season being fairly dark (Rick, Sub-Zero, Black Adam) I think the contrast works in Gizmo's favor. Fred isn't all that exciting an inclusion, but he should have probably shown up by now.
Marvin -> Immortan Joe (Mad Max). Nothing against Marvin, I just really think there should be a Mad Max character and he was the most cuttable character. I'm stealing the idea from Gaming Gryffindor's/Capybara's video, Immortan Joe would probably have a more interesting move set than Max or Furiosa.
Banana Guard -> Brak (Space Ghost). I had no idea what to do with Banana Guard. On one hand, it's ****ing Banana Guard, but on the other he was explicitly a low-effort inclusion; swapping him out for someone like Ben 10 felt disingenuous. I genuinely contemplated keeping him because I couldn't think of anything better. In the end, I decided to swap him out for a Space Ghost character, with the "gimmick" (cost cutting measure) of incredibly choppy animations. Space Ghost himself felt a bit redundant with all the DC superheroes, and the mantis character's voice actor passed away, so Brak was the next character in line.
Agent Smith -> Agent Smith with a slightly more interesting moveset
Samurai Jack -> Mordecai. Because I added Jack early, someone needs to take his spot here. Mordecai's a top request, we know he was being worked on, not much to say.
Nubia -> Chani (Dune). I don't hate Nubia as much as a lot of people do, but it's hard to argue the slot couldn't be better spent. Dune, on the other hand, is one of Warner's biggest movie properties this decade and totally deserves a slot (don't think about Legendary Pictures they don't matter). Why Chani instead of Paul? I cut Garnet, I cut Nubia, and (spoiler) I'm going to cut Marceline - I accidentally cut a massive chunk of the POC, and I feel pretty bad about that.
Marceline -> Gumball. Marcy isn't a bad inclusion, but AT shouldn't have three characters when every other CN series on the roster only has 1. The Amazing World of Gumball is probably the most important CN series yet to be added here, so Gumball gets the slot.
Lola -> Taz/Marvin. Nothing against Lola, but she's somewhat derivative of Lebron - I'd rather bring back one of the other Looney Tunes. I don't really have a preference between the two, so pretend I went with the one you prefer.

 

[Borskaboska]

I came to an epiphany last night. Why do games like Multiversus, NASB and PlayStation All-Stars end up the way they did? Easy, the studios that own these properties were way too controlling and they didn't give their devs enough freedom or dev time. Even Smash back in the 64 and Melee days had to deal with the same thing.

• Almost not being able to use Nintendo characters
• Almost being a Japan exclusive
• Melee only having a 13 month dev cycle
• No delays were allowed for either

Smash was only allowed to escape it because of its success. They gave more freedom to Sakurai and his team with Brawl, Sm4sh and Ultimate.

Even NASB2 had a tiny bit more freedom than the first game did.

But why was Smash allowed to escape the corporate meddling and not the others? Smash was the first of it's kind. Well technically not with games like Joust, The Outfoxies and Jump n' Bump but most people generally view Smash as the first. It unintentionally made things harder for future games. The general audience doesn't view platform fighters as a genre just yet. It's all clones or ripoffs to them.

But those 3 games and others probably could've succeeded and changed things but the problem was not (entirely) the devs but rather the studios than owned these IPs that were way too controlling.

I'd say that if you want a proper crossover platform fighter with a certain company it would probably be better if you made it a fangame and hoped you don't get DMCA'd. Because you would be able to have the roster and freedom you'd want.

If Disney, Xbox or Dreamworks made their own platform fighters they would probably go through the same thing. A company needs to be bold enough to break the cycle for change to come.

I've mentioned it a couple times before but I believe the biggest thing that sets smash apart from the others is being developed in japan and by an established industry vet. If the core premise of your game requires negotiating with a ton of rights holders who mostly live in japan, someone like Sakurai is going to have way more sway than some no-name american studio like SuperBot.

 

[Opossum]

Figured I'd also rank the post-beta additions.

Nubia, Marceline, Agent Smith, and Powerpuff Girls are all about on the same level, the former two for being pleasant surprises and the latter for being great additions on paper but lacking in execution imo.

 

[LimeTH]

Figured I'd also rank the post-beta additions.
View attachment 398746
Nubia, Marceline, Agent Smith, and Powerpuff Girls are all about on the same level, the former two for being pleasant surprises and the latter for being great additions on paper but lacking in execution imo.

I was so unbelievably disappointed in Powerpuff Girls. They were in the S rank of my most wanted characters, I was so excited to see them get in, and then they kinda sucked? They’re slippery, they die too quickly, their positioning is wack, I cannot for the life of me get the hang of their moveset, and said moveset is just sort of eh. Making them an all in one character was a mistake.

As much as the problems with this game go way beyond the roster, I still want to share what I would have done differently. In an ideal world this game would have lasted way longer, so think of it less as "cutting" characters, moreso delaying them.

Gandalf -> Wicked Witch. This one is probably cheating, but I don't care. Gandalf was probably done before they cut him, so by swapping him out for somebody else we basically get an extra fighter for free! The Wicked Witch totally deserved to be added, and since this is long before Wicked that shouldn't be an issue)
Reindog -> Maxwell (Scribblenauts). I don't hate Reindog or anything, but he's the easiest cut because nobody would know he existed if not for this game. As for Maxwell - I loved Scribblenauts as a kid. He's my pure bias pick.
Taz -> Daffy. I don't really care about the Looney Tunes, and even I think Daffy was robbed. Taz can wait.
Garnet -> Samurai Jack. Garnet's the first of a few swap-outs where I'm getting rid of one of two characters from one series to get another series in. It hurts to cut a Steven Universe character, but I really doubt it deserves two characters on a ~35 character roster. I remember the biggest roster critique at launch was the lack of legacy CN representation, I think moving Jack up should help with that.
Morty -> Sub-Zero (I think part of why interest cratered for beta S1 was the doubling up on characters per series. Morty deserves to be added, but he can wait a while. Mortal Kombat, on the other hand, is one of the biggest gaps on the roster)
Stripe -> Fred Flintstone Two Gremlins so early into the game's life was a baffling choice in retrospect. I was planning on cutting Gizmo and keeping Stripe, but with the other characters being added this season being fairly dark (Rick, Sub-Zero, Black Adam) I think the contrast works in Gizmo's favor. Fred isn't all that exciting an inclusion, but he should have probably shown up by now.
Marvin -> Immortan Joe (Mad Max). Nothing against Marvin, I just really think there should be a Mad Max character and he was the most cuttable character. I'm stealing the idea from Gaming Gryffindor's/Capybara's video, Immortan Joe would probably have a more interesting move set than Max or Furiosa.
Banana Guard -> Brak (Space Ghost). I had no idea what to do with Banana Guard. On one hand, it's ****ing Banana Guard, but on the other he was explicitly a low-effort inclusion; swapping him out for someone like Ben 10 felt disingenuous. I genuinely contemplated keeping him because I couldn't think of anything better. In the end, I decided to swap him out for a Space Ghost character, with the "gimmick" (cost cutting measure) of incredibly choppy animations. Space Ghost himself felt a bit redundant with all the DC superheroes, and the mantis character's voice actor passed away, so Brak was the next character in line.
Agent Smith -> Agent Smith with a slightly more interesting moveset
Samurai Jack -> Mordecai. Because I added Jack early, someone needs to take his spot here. Mordecai's a top request, we know he was being worked on, not much to say.
Nubia -> Chani (Dune). I don't hate Nubia as much as a lot of people do, but it's hard to argue the slot couldn't be better spent. Dune, on the other hand, is one of Warner's biggest movie properties this decade and totally deserves a slot (don't think about Legendary Pictures they don't matter). Why Chani instead of Paul? I cut Garnet, I cut Nubia, and (spoiler) I'm going to cut Marceline - I accidentally cut a massive chunk of the POC, and I feel pretty bad about that.
Marceline -> Gumball. Marcy isn't a bad inclusion, but AT shouldn't have three characters when every other CN series on the roster only has 1. The Amazing World of Gumball is probably the most important CN series yet to be added here, so Gumball gets the slot.
Lola -> Taz/Marvin. Nothing against Lola, but she's somewhat derivative of Lebron - I'd rather bring back one of the other Looney Tunes. I don't really have a preference between the two, so pretend I went with the one you prefer.

I dont agree with all of this but you still get a like for including Brak

 

[Opossum]

I was so unbelievably disappointed in Powerpuff Girls. They were in the S rank of my most wanted characters, I was so excited to see them get in, and then they kinda sucked? They’re slippery, they die too quickly, their positioning is wack, I cannot for the life of me get the hang of their moveset, and said moveset is just sort of eh. Making them an all in one character was a mistake.

I agree, and then to top it all off they were like, by FAR the least healthily designed character in the game, with the most amount of easy-to-pull-off infinites and zero-to-deaths in the cast. I swear they just didn't playtest them at all.

Like at least with the Iron Giant, him being broken for much of the first half of the full release had to do with the baffling decision to increase the size of every playable character significantly but also not increase the sizes of the stages and blast zones, since he was fine, or even underpowered, in the beta. The Powerpuff Girls were made with the new system in mind, and yet they had...all of that.