MU vs fox

[superyoshi64]

now that i know each individual match up has its own thread here is one for fox so lets begin

 

[Meta_Yoshi]

I have a hard time with fox, Yoshi is my main and I've dedicated a lot of time to him but no matter how much I try I cannot beat my friends Fox. 2v2 I have no problems with him but as soon as we 1v1 he destroys me.
I just recently joined the forums to gain knowledge and better myself as a player. So I am still unfamiliar with a lot of terms on here, but is it just me or is Yoshi very limited to true combos or combos period? It seems that most of his attacks push the opponent too far back even at low percentages....

 

[Scarlet Jile]

If you watch your recoveries and return to neutral safely, it's not easy for Fox to kill Yoshi. Don't get Baired out of your recovery and don't land into an Up or Down-smash, and you should be lasting longer than him. Be more judicious about your SH egg toss, since Fox covers an insane amount of ground, and a poorly timed egg can lead to an Upsmash death. In fact, be careful every time you leave the ground and assume that every landing will have be a mix-up if Fox has stage control.

This matchup lasts a long time for me, since I space carefully and play a defensive Yoshi, and when played like that, I think we come out just ahead. Maybe 55:45 or 60:40 in our favor. Never thought I'd see the day...

 

[Meta_Yoshi]

Playing in a friendly tournament on Saturday, 16 family and friends. There is only 2 people that give me trouble one of which is fox.
Seems like I'm in his combo constantly which I cannot escape from. Grab d-throw to I believe it's his Fair (multiple round house kicks) to his up air.
I'm stunned the whole time, I can't dodge, neutral A, jump or anything against it.
Every combo racks up 30+ %

Any suggestions besides not getting grabbed?

 

[Terotrous]

I find this matchup very stressful to play since Fox can pressure Yoshi a lot and you really have to be vigilant against Uairs and USmashes, but I think it is actually even. Jabs put in a lot of work vs Fox.

With customs on it would likely be +1 Fox, simply because he gets a lot better while Yoshi remains largely unchanged.

 

[DavemanCozy]

This is an MU I had trouble with as Fox. I thought it was a bad MU, tbh, but it's closer to even (I give Yoshi a slight advantage).

Yoshi struggles with characters that can swat him out of the air: Fox is capable of doing that with B-air, but this is hard for Fox to do as Yoshi's F-air and N-air are no joke. Fox being a light character, shielding one of Yoshi's high knockback attacks means we are going to be in shieldstun and getting pushed back. Near the ledge, this can be trouble. A long travelling dash attack and eggs also mean Fox can't happily shoot lasers, he must be cautious of how he chooses to rack up damage from afar.

Yoshi can get out of pressure very well with N-air. His air mobility is also amazing, Fox can't really challenge it and needs to opt for chasing him through the ground instead. That said, this is how Fox keeps up with Yoshi, as long as he is aware of his aerials (specially the long-lasting N-air and shield-eating D-air) and spaces correctly, Fox can keep up with him with U-airs, B-airs, his own N-air, and F-airs. Fox's F-smash and running U-smash are effective for punishing mispaced attacks by Yoshi too.

Blaster 2 does help us out in sniping Yoshi, challenging his egg projectile. UpB3 (while hard to hit with) and U-smash can KO Yoshi as early as ~107% iirc.

We have started discussion on this MU over at the Fox boards too:
All Aircraft Report! Fox Match Up Discussion Thread

We look forward to discussing this MU with fellow lab animal mains.

 

[Terotrous]

A long travelling dash attack and eggs also mean Fox can't happily shoot lasers, he must be cautious of how he chooses to rack up damage from afar.

Yeah, laser is just not a good tool in this matchup, Yoshi can avoid it easily with short hop Egg, or just get in there and kick Fox, either way he comes out ahead. From my experience, Fox should attempt to stay on Yoshi at all times, as Yoshi clearly wins the ranged battle. Fox Illusion can be used to threaten Yoshi if he throws eggs from too close. Wolf Flash would likely be even better if customs are on.

Yoshi can get out of pressure very well with N-air. His air mobility is also amazing, Fox can't really challenge it and needs to opt for chasing him through the ground instead.

I find short hop Uair gives me issues with Yoshi, it's super fast and I can't easily challenge it with anything but DownB, which is risky.


I feel that Fox's best option in this matchup is to stay close and use Foxtrot, which gives him all kinds of great options. USmash and Grab are obviously very dangerous, but Fox's Jab, FTilt, UTilt, and DSmash are also all great moves.

 

[dahuterschuter]

Fox killing requires either precision bair off stage, which puts him at risk himself of a Yoshi fair meteor, an uair, which can be negated by the handy infinite airdodging or even a Yoshi Bomb if they commit hard enough, or you to walk into an up-smash. Chances are you'll be getting up to ridiculous percentages before any of these can happen and Yoshi can kill Fox much earlier. Fox is an opportunistic character that often relies on running in and usmashing during an opponent's ending frames for moves they missed, and Yoshi only has long ending on everything he sticks his tongue out for.

 

[Delta-cod]

Fox killing requires either precision bair off stage, which puts him at risk himself of a Yoshi fair meteor, an uair, which can be negated by the handy infinite airdodging or even a Yoshi Bomb if they commit hard enough, or you to walk into an up-smash. Chances are you'll be getting up to ridiculous percentages before any of these can happen and Yoshi can kill Fox much earlier. Fox is an opportunistic character that often relies on running in and usmashing during an opponent's ending frames for moves they missed, and Yoshi only has long ending on everything he sticks his tongue out for.

This isn't entirely true either. Yoshi might have low end lag on most aerials, but the start up is awful, meaning it's generally safe to run in and Usmash when we jump.

Furthermore, our grounded options are not particularly fast or good, so staying grounded against Fox is also difficult.

Neither character can afford to commit, but I'd argue Fox is safer in neutral, giving him better opportunities to rack up damage and land the kill. Our kill moves require us to win neutral, then win a 50:50 situation. He can just punish with a run in Usmash in response to our whiffing something. He could probably even do this OOS if you happen to misspace a move on shield, which he is capable of forcing with his high movement.

Good discussion of this MU happened over on the Fox boards recently. http://smashboards.com/threads/all-...cussion-thread-week-3-luigi-mario-doc.393061/

Starting at Post #26, Yoshi discussion begins (this post is by DavemanCozy).

 

[GSM_Dren]

I feel that this matchup can go to either fox or yoshi +1/-1/even honestly, but for now I'm leaning toward Yoshi +1. Yoshi's OoS nair makes the matchup quite hellish for Fox, while fox has that 2 frame jab in his favor (though we can still DJ out). Yoshi still has to respect the jabs (and utilt) because if we try to nair out of it instead of DJ, the fox can shield and continue pressure or just grab.

I'd say the matchup should somewhat be even because both characters disrupt the other's neutral game and like Delta-cod said, there's plenty of 50:50 situations that occur. Fox is agile enough to get through the eggs and punish any unsafe Nair/Fair Yoshi's usually fallback on. His prominent Usmash is quicker than ours and I believe will kill sooner as well. This move really can cover Yoshi's landings, so we always have to worry about that move whenever we're recovering. Fox's Dsmash can cover a low recovering Yoshi, so its important to mix up the way we recover. Fox also has the Dthrow to fair/uair strings giving us decent %.

For yoshi we have the neutral B, which can be disrupted simply by Fox's jab if we're using it unsafely/predictably. And even then if we do get the egg lay, we can't really get much off of it because Fox can release out into a nair, stopping any Yoshi bomb/Upsmash setups we usually follow through with. This is where I can see Egg launch be of use, because Yoshi shines off stage. When fox is off stage we can egg his recovery (or try too) and if they recover onto the stage with side-b then we can pivot grab or punish with Usmash/Fsmash.

Because we're able to disrupt fox's neutral game, he has a harder time playing against us compared to other characters. Either character has to be aware of safe/unsafe options because the 50:50 situations mean we both have to be on point when it comes to punishing.

I find this matchup very stressful to play since Fox can pressure Yoshi a lot and you really have to be vigilant against Uairs and USmashes, but I think it is actually even. Jabs put in a lot of work vs Fox.

With customs on it would likely be +1 Fox, simply because he gets a lot better while Yoshi remains largely unchanged.

Which customs would you see Fox benefiting from in this matchup? Flying fox is real nice for fox to recover quicker and safely. His blasters won't see that much use because of Yoshi's mobility, but I can see how the custom ones have their own use. We in turn get egg launch, which gives us better stage control than default.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Which customs would you see Fox benefiting from in this matchup? Flying fox is real nice for fox to recover quicker and safely. His blasters won't see that much use because of Yoshi's mobility, but I can see how the custom ones have their own use. We in turn get egg launch, which gives us better stage control than default.

Fox should be using Blaster 2 or 3. 2 are Falco's lasers, 3 is the charged blaster shot.

The better UpB is 3, Twisting Fox. KOs at around 100%.

 

[Terotrous]

Which customs would you see Fox benefiting from in this matchup? Flying fox is real nice for fox to recover quicker and safely. His blasters won't see that much use because of Yoshi's mobility, but I can see how the custom ones have their own use. We in turn get egg launch, which gives us better stage control than default.

Wolf Flash is the one that worries me the most, Yoshi wants to short hop a lot in this matchup and Wolf Flash threatens short hops pretty effectively. The other blasters are definitely a bit more of a factor, too, as default blaster is nearly worthless in this matchup.

 

[Wingz003]

Dat wolf flash!