[MU] Ganondorf

[Elessar]

My 3DS FC is on my profile plus I used to main Link.

I prefer to not play on the 3DS if it can be helped since I fail so hard at the controls. We could try, but it won't be a good performance for me, sorry.

 

[THE 6r]

I prefer to not play on the 3DS if it can be helped since I fail so hard at the controls. We could try, but it won't be a good performance for me, sorry.

Don't have Wii U version yet.

 

[Elessar]

Don't have Wii U version yet.

Just add me and let's fail together. I've added you already. Also, to keep talking about this we should continue on PM or you can go to our Xat.

 

[Opana]

GGs @ Zane the pure

I think with plats we have the advantage.

 

[Elessar]

Apparently the consensus thus far is that between two players of equal skill, the stage is the deciding factor. I do think that we need to test that more though so let's keep playing.

 

[Zane the pure]

GGs @ Zane the pure

I think with plats we have the advantage.

Indeed GGs, and with open plains Link has an equivalent advantage.
Critically Speaking I'd call it 50/50 stage non-withstanding, but I personally feel (I.E. as a player) the matchup is 55/45 Ganon's favor because if he gets ONE read at any decent% your stock is toast, and wifi favors reads to tech.

Vids: 3 close'ish matches, 1win/2losses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4l7m2OKHXY Loss
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJCGzsUuc7k Win
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeJPCJDeqyw Loss
(maybe add these to the OP or something for reference?)

I think you can see pretty well from these videos what advantages each character has, and I think we can gauge which stages will favor either from the results. Links, watch what happens when you become too aggressive, and what you can do about it. Ganondorfs, watch for errant projectiles (as Link can use bombs to cloak some off them)and don't get predictable, as some of Link's option will net him a solid kill confirm opportunity off of bomb setups. Both characters are very susceptible when landing, so way your options and play smart.

Good luck

 

[_Magus_]

GGs @ Zane the pure

I think with plats we have the advantage.

Battlefield for us. I've said it before and I'll say it till I die. Battlefield is our best stage.

Unless you're talking about the spike hitbox, you just showed that you don't know Link. Dair is no longer a KO move by any stretch of imagination; nair will kill you before dair does.

I repeat, from reading everything so far it seems that none of you (those who have spoken on the MU) has played vs a decent Link. You haven't mentioned nair as a wall which again for the 11th time stops every approach you have.

@JmacAttack also said that tether leaves us vulnerable because it takes some time to get us to the stage. No it doesn't, it's immediate and we have no cooldown once we grab the Ledge which means that we can act right out of grabbing the ledge. You also said that throw won't kill you until 200%. Actually uthrow will kill you at 155% or so, and even still the purpose of our grab is not to combo out of it or kill but just get you off stage.

We really need to get some matches going.

Oh and btw, I don't play on the 3ds if I can help it. Sorry.

I've performed a runoff back air with dorf that killed Link as he was reeling the hookshot up to the edge. It's definitely possible to get a hard read on a Link and take a stock when he uses the tether.

 

[Elessar]

I want to play someone, but can't atm and my Internet has been failing hard today. I love BF and would like to test it.

 

[_Magus_]

I want to play someone, but can't atm and my Internet has been failing hard today. I love BF and would like to test it.

There's a lot of unique technology that Ganondorf gets on Battlefield. I've compiled most of it into my stage guide in my sig if you want to take a look.

 

[Elessar]

There's a lot of unique technology that Ganondorf gets on Battlefield. I've compiled most of it into my stage guide in my sig if you want to take a look.

I will. I love BF because it allows me to tech chase failed techs and punish them. Besides, Link is usually favored by stages with platforms.

 

[_Magus_]

I will. I love BF because it allows me to tech chase failed techs and punish them. Besides, Link is usually favored by stages with platforms.

I really like the platform cover vs. any projectile characters, the side b shennanigans, the dark dive sharking, and the platform techchases. It's Ganondorf's best stage bc it helps cover his weaknesses and opens up new options for him.

Ignore the first part as it's basic stuff.

 

[Zane the pure]

So I played a bunch of rounds with Lozjam all over the stagelist and I can pick out some of Link's better stages for the MU.

Link IMO has the advantage on the following stage: (based on the Apex ruleset)
Final Destination (and other wall-less variants)
Isle Delfino
Duck Hunt
and Part 3 of Castle Siege

I feel Ganondorf gains the advantage on the following stages:
Battlefield
Lylat Cruise
Kongo Jungle
Parts 1&2 of Castle Siege

And the following stages feel even and or so slightly advantageous it doesn't change much at all:
Smashville
And any FD variant with side walls.

This is a very fun Matchup IMO since Link needs to constantly maintain a strong setup and good spacing, and Ganondorf has to fish for hard reads and clear the wall of projectiles (which without PSing is really tough)

 

[A2ZOMG]

I guess I'm one of the only Ganon players who personally prefers FD over BF. Against someone like Link who is easily juggled and vulnerable to edgeguards, I personally enjoy fighting him on FD where his options to escape from Ganondorf's train wreck momentum are very limited.

 

[the king of murder]

I am a bit late to the party but here is my input.

I fought 2 Link's yesterday @ Zane the pure and @ link7 on the 3ds.

Based on my matches with them and analyzing our options, I would say this MU is dead even.

Link has a lot of options against Ganny. He can create a wall of projectiles, notably Bombs which can overwhelm Ganon because of the pressure it creates, plus it forces us to approach(not something new for Ganon). It's basically walking through a minefield, though not as instantly threatening. He also has Zair as a keep away, however I would not advise to overuse it as we can punish it if we are close.

I agree that Nair and Jab is his bread and butter here, notably well spaced Nair because it was a lot more threatening and I didn't have any problems with Jab. Nair is safe and fast. I feel like Links Nair has the same properties as Luigi's as a combo breaker( Iam not sure though), it was really hard to deal with in general and it forced me into bad situations. Also, Link can threaten Ganon offstage with his projectiles and Nair so we have to be careful with our recovery. His tilts and smashes can kill at very high percent, so we have to watch out for that too.

With that said, Ganon's KO powers and damage output is a lot more significant than people think it is. I have noticed that in a lot of my matches, I have been hit like 6-9 times with all kinds of things but I only needed like 2 hits to take the lead again. Only 2. Considering that Link's mobility is not that great and that Ganon has the ability to juggle a lot of characters hard, Link will find himself very quickly at kill percent once Ganon gets in as Link will have a very hard time to get him out again. Our throw game and Flame Choke Case plus tilt spacing is our ground bread and butter here. Not to mention we can kill really early.

Link does not want to be in the air, we completly dominate that area as our aerials are one of the best in the game (quick and super powerful+ juggle ability). Your Nair trades with ours but you should not trade with us at all because we do more damage. Our edgeguard can be very scary for Link as he has to recover low to not straight up die. Our aerials being so scary we only need one or two hits in, though if we are too careless, Link might turn the tides(though, that will rarely happen)

Also, while Link's bombs are an incredible tool for this MU, it has quite a bit of start up. I have managed to punish a lot of down-bs because of how long it takes, which forced them into bad situations(either off stage or in the air).

I agree that the MU can be stage dependent. On stages with platforms, I can get in faster and pressure harder, though on stages like FD I have a harder time to get in but it's not really that bad.

 

[KenMeister]

Am I the only who likes the idea of it being an even matchup? Shows just how grand and epic the battle between the courageous Hero of Time and the King of Evil can truly be, as the player with the better momentum being the ultimate deciding factor. Funny actually, the discussion kind of reminds me of the one they had for Link vs Ganon in Melee, in the sense that it was almost entirely stage dependent. Ultimately Ganon wins that one (if mostly because of dthrow chaingrab), but the momentum factor, for the most part, was still the major deciding factor. Don't know how the MU in Brawl was discussed though, and it probably doesn't matter since most people wrote him off anyway.

Also @ A2ZOMG think we should bring Ray Kalm along for the ride so we can have a top level perspective on the matchup?

 

[Opana]

IIRC Link was his best mu aside from mirrors and he was still at a disadvantage lol.

 

[KenMeister]

IIRC Link was his best mu aside from mirrors and he was still at a disadvantage lol.

How was that matchup decided against Ganon, though? Isn't the only big difference Ganon has in this game over Brawl is slightly less start-up in his moves (outside of tech-able sideB and removed autocancel dair of course)? Not to mention Link was waaaaaay worse in Brawl.

 

[Elessar]

How was that matchup decided against Ganon, though? Isn't the only big difference Ganon has in this game over Brawl is slightly less start-up in his moves (outside of tech-able sideB and removed autocancel dair of course)? Not to mention Link was waaaaaay worse in Brawl.

Link was way worse but had some things that were better, like zair. Also, that slightly slower start up made all the difference when it came to punishing him.

 

[Opana]

Overall Speed increase
More damaging Choke
Better recovery due to no ledge hogging, plus he slodes up stages and !edge snaps real nice.
Rage is very beneficial to him.
Can move during ganoncide
Unsure if in brawl but dthrow combos nice.
No phantom lag after grabbing a ledge

Not sure what else but that ledge change and speed improvement are phenomenal.

EDIT PLag change is also great.

 

[Lozjam]

Overall Speed increase
More damaging Choke
Better recovery due to no ledge hogging, plus he slodes up stages and !edge snaps real nice.
Rage is very beneficial to him.
Can move during ganoncide
Unsure if in brawl but dthrow combos nice.
No phantom lag after grabbing a ledge

Not sure what else but that ledge change and speed improvement are phenomenal.

EDIT PLag change is also great.

Note to mention huge damage buffs on most of his moves.
Less lag(both aerial and landing) on every single aerial except for Dair
Less startup on Wizard's Kick
Aerial Wizards Kick both works as a spike and an extremely viable kill move
Ledge Mechanics keep Ganondorf from being edghogged(The #1 worst thing about Ganondorf's recovery in Brawl)
Increased mobility and start up allows for some amazing strings and viable dthrow combos.

This not only makes Ganondorfs defenses even better, but also creates a whole new lair(layer) to Ganondorf's play. Ganondorf can now go full agro on offstage foes, allowing for these chases to be beneficial and allowing Gnaondorf to take stocks very easily.
Ganondorf was buffed tremendously from Brawl @ KenMeister , like Link was, and you should fear him.

 

[Elessar]

Ganondorf was buffed tremendously from Brawl @ KenMeister , like Link was, and you should fear them.

Fixed it for you.

 

[KenMeister]

Yeah, I played a lot of Smash 4 Ganon, and even wanted to consider him a main at one point, but as my Ganon got significantly better in Melee due to my tech skill and mindgame knowledge getting better with him, I decided to main someone else as to not ruin my Ganon gameplay when I go back to Melee (which is the game I play the most). Ganon in Smash 4 is very fun, and his sideB reads and pivot ftilt are my favorite parts of him overall, but my my lack of knowledge comes from me barely playing much of Brawl competitively, let alone hardly in general (I don't like Brawl lol) so I don't really know how comparatively bad he is in that by looking at specific areas that were worse. All I really know for sure that helped him the most was the ledge mechanics, and that's mostly just because of the Smash 4 engine in general. Thanks for the clarifications, though.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Am I the only who likes the idea of it being an even matchup? Shows just how grand and epic the battle between the courageous Hero of Time and the King of Evil can truly be, as the player with the better momentum being the ultimate deciding factor. Funny actually, the discussion kind of reminds me of the one they had for Link vs Ganon in Melee, in the sense that it was almost entirely stage dependent. Ultimately Ganon wins that one (if mostly because of dthrow chaingrab), but the momentum factor, for the most part, was still the major deciding factor. Don't know how the MU in Brawl was discussed though, and it probably doesn't matter since most people wrote him off anyway.

Also @ A2ZOMG think we should bring Ray Kalm along for the ride so we can have a top level perspective on the matchup?

Dunno, not everyone always agrees with me or Ray_Kalm anyway.

I mean for that matter...I would honestly rather take Link to FD than Battlefield just because his landing options are so limited, that taking away platforms from him allows Ganondorf to seal his stock more reliably. Also I would argue that Link probably benefits more from platform pressure options than Ganondorf.

I think the matchup is slightly Ganon's favor, because I know that if I stand outside of Link's Jab range, I have almost nothing to fear in this matchup, while Link actually is forced on the defensive in this position and can really only use grab to pressure me here, keeping in mind his throws are basically the worst in the game. Everyone else has already mentioned that Ganon's reward is a huge factor in this matchup, and he legitimately outpressures Link in neutral due to his superior midrange options.

 

[WwwWario]

Just want to apologize a lot for posting that thread I did recently. I was, well, about this exact topic, and I didn't read (or think) before making it. And to answer a question there: No, apparently I haven't improved

Again, sorry. Wanted to post it there, but the thread got locked. I promise I won't post anything on the boards anymore (Each tread I've made has become spam, really, simply because I don't think before I post...)

Anyways, I was just having some problems with Link using Ganon. Sorry again :\ And sorry if this is the wrong place to put this, as well...

 

[Dumbfire]

Well, this is the right thread for discussing Ganon's match-up with Link. What do you find difficult about the match-up? Is it sill the 3DS version or the Wii U version?

 

[link7]

Does Ganondorf have a ventilation fan near his crotch? Because I soft threw a bomb at him while he was trying edgeguard me with a utilt, and the bomb skirted across the ground right back at me.

 

[Elessar]

Does Ganondorf have a ventilation fan near his crotch? Because I soft threw a bomb at him while he was trying edgeguard me with a utilt, and the bomb skirted across the ground right back at me.

Utilt has a" magnetic" effect. That means that when Ganondorf does utilt a sort of gravitational pull towards his center is created, both from in front and behind him. This is why utilt is dangerous, it will draw you and every projectile towards ganondorf.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Yeah it's similar to Rosalina's Gravitational Pull only it explodes at the end. The explosion's power depends on how much stuff Ganondorf pulled in. I recommend trying to spotdodge constantly from the other side of the stage so that you remain intangible to avoid getting sucked in then immediately Dash across the whole stage and do a Dash attack to punish it.

 

[Opana]

It's more so dangerous because of the massive hitbox and power. I don't believe that it sucks in all projectiles, nor does any projectile affected increase its power(AFAIK). Any Ganon that knows what he's doing won't intentionally use it if he knows it's a potential risk, and the only plausible scenario is at the edge where it gives high reward with little risk.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It's more so dangerous because of the massive hitbox and power. I don't believe that it sucks in all projectiles, nor does any projectile affected increase its power(AFAIK). Any Ganon that knows what he's doing won't intentionally use it if he knows it's a potential risk, and the only plausible scenario is at the edge where it gives high reward with little risk.

It's totally spammable in this matchup though. The crutch ventilation fan completely shuts down Link's spam game. What can Link do? you know, apart from spotdodging on the other side of the stage that is.