MU discussion: Yoshi

[WalrusBiscuit]

No this is not a joke. I have a lot of trouble in this MU for some reason. Help would be appreciated.

 

[YoHeKing]

This is seriously my biggest problem right now. This MU makes sheik, sonic, luigi and even diddy seem easy.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Play patiently since Yoshi can punish his moves well. Avoid kill moves at all costs since Yoshi has trouble killing. Run under eggs to punish them. In fact I think we can DJ armor through eggs to more easily gimp each other (haven't tried this though). Shield is extra strong in this MU because no shield pokes. It also might be worth talking about what you guys are having trouble with.

 

[Fuerzo]

What are you talking about? Yoshi always wins this matchup no matter what.

In seriousness, abuse shield due to Yoshi's slow grab and the fact that he doesn't get shield stabbed, stay at the same level as or below the other Yoshi as much as possible, and play patiently in general to bait out your opponent and punish any over-reaching.

 

[muddykips]

yeah, could you give examples of what exactly it is you dislike about the mu?

because personally, it's one of my favorites. yoshi can approach yoshi well, i think, so battles are usually pretty active.

at least we don't have a mirror mu like sonic v sonic...

 

[YoHeKing]

I wanna find a way to go aggresive in this MU. I just choke hard against yoshi players even if they change characters. Its really weird and Im trying to practice the Yoshi MU. Ill try going defensive and stuff more.

 

[muddykips]

i don't think just going defensive will work. maybe some other characters will be forced by eggs, but in a ditto, your opponent has access to everything you have. in my opinion, the person who knows how to get in better will end up winning.

being defensive works much better if you give your opponent something to believe in, which means you have to show them you're able to attack. then you can bait responses, instead of just hoping the opponent messes up while you throw a ton of eggs.

but in any case, this is probably the easiest mu to get actual mu experience info for us, since we all play yoshi anyways... wasn't there even like, a yoshi dittos tournament thing on this board a while back? we could do something like that again.

 

[YoHeKing]

I havn't won against a Yoshi main in forever now. I feel like I just like sleep on him or something. Its like my mind just gives up.

So hows shad in this MU. I find it easily punishable.

 

[Grambles]

Yeah, everything Sangre said. Staying grounded and defensive is so critical in the MU. UpSmash has a lot of priority over fAir too. It's pretty easy to gauge their knowledge of the character, so watch their habits closely.

 

[GSM_Dren]

Fun and pretty chaotic matchup based on the yoshi dittos the board did months ago. Try to keep the opponent yoshi above you throughout the match because utilt, uair, and especially usmash are really strong against yoshi's landing options. Since our grab game is pretty terrible oos, oos nair/jab/usmash punish is the way to go. Try to bait the opponent yoshi into an attack through faking out, SHAD, jumping back -> drift in, etc. Grab release into jabs will not work because he gets released to far, but pivot grab will put him closer for it to work (provided they don't retaliate).

Another thing to be mindful of is when your opponent recovers low with a double jump, grab them -> air release and watch them plummet to their doom with a spike. Also fair trading is a thing so don't carelessly go off stage and overextend if you don't need to.

 

[YoHeKing]

I feel like im getting a bit better. The way I play is totally chaos for me in the ditto. Im 80% air (against alot of the matchups. Pretty hard to play though) but in the ditto I should probably go 80% ground.

What about egg spam? How much does that help. I also noticed yoshi can punish jab into dash attack.

 

[WalrusBiscuit]

I feel kinda confident in this matchup now. Thanks to everyone who contributed! :D

 

[noft]

The Yoshi ditto mu is my favorite by far, i feel like its the best way to learn playstyle , practice reaction speed due to the mu, doesnt yoshi have a different playstyle that could be 50/50 against every character? ive noticed that sticking to the basics in most cases works really well in the match up, when ever i play @skippykips hes always punishing everything i mess up on , makes me hate them damn egg rolls lol, i still havnt taken a game off him but ive gotten pretty close, and he uses the game pad with tap jump, lol. idk how u do it, i would like to play u again some time, im back to playing smash 4 every day

simply just using well placed ets on an engaging aggro yoshi or using egg roll to catch and egg toss or landing yoshi seems to work well for him against me, he basically taught me all the dumb crap im doing is wrong lol. i agree with the yoshi tournament thing i had no idea anything like that happened, we should hold one some time,

 

[YoHeKing]

So I might have found a pretty cool way of beating the ditto aggressively. Change of playstyle and it seems to be perfect against yoshi. I will see how it goes though.

 

[muddykips]

gamepad with tapjump is CLEARLY superior. i don't know how you guys manage to use GC controller with the empty push space on L/R buttons, strangely placed y button, and harder-to-push analog stick. gripping that tiny thing just makes my hands sweaty.

[/i'm half serious]

as for tap jump, it seems to just work out on yoshi? it makes ETS feel really natural, since you only have to do one fluid motion for it. and since i've always had it on, i'm used to not wasting my doublejump by using upb, but if i'm REALLY that far away from the stage i'll just use doublejump before upb anyways.

So I might have found a pretty cool way of beating the ditto aggressively. Change of playstyle and it seems to be perfect against yoshi. I will see how it goes though.

so secretive!

 

[YoHeKing]

gamepad with tapjump is CLEARLY superior. i don't know how you guys manage to use GC controller with the empty push space on L/R buttons, strangely placed y button, and harder-to-push analog stick. gripping that tiny thing just makes my hands sweaty.

[/i'm half serious]

as for tap jump, it seems to just work out on yoshi? it makes ETS feel really natural, since you only have to do one fluid motion for it. and since i've always had it on, i'm used to not wasting my doublejump by using upb, but if i'm REALLY that far away from the stage i'll just use doublejump before upb anyways.

so secretive!

Im pretty sure tap jump Is extremely sensitive on the gamecube controller. "Stalling" egg toss's jump is a pretty good way of recovering against sword players if you got launched far enough off stage to save your double jump and you can up B over the stage.

I don't get how you could play with tap jump. Its pretty awsome you can play like that and theres nothing bad about that. but then again I use jump on dpad for a combo breaker of a buffer nair with DI. Or DI and no momentum on 2nd jump if it breaks combos (free down B). And L as special so I can hold it down or access it easier lol. My cconfigurations are nerdy.

Btw I said I may have found a agressive counter but it may just fail.

 

[Skitrel]

If the other Yoshi is above you, move away. If you are above the other Yoshi, move towards.

This matchup pretty much revolves around which person is better at spacing that fair, the ideal position for it is just slightly above your opponent. Keep this in mind at all times and it becomes relatively easy.

Over thinking hurts this matchup a lot. I like to focus on this one single fundamental aspect and the rest all seems to slot into place. Just remember that Yoshi likes to be above his opponent for approaches and you know when you should be retreating versus attacking. Just get yourself in the better position.

 

[YoHeKing]

If the other Yoshi is above you, move away. If you are above the other Yoshi, move towards.

This matchup pretty much revolves around which person is better at spacing that fair, the ideal position for it is just slightly above your opponent. Keep this in mind at all times and it becomes relatively easy.

Over thinking hurts this matchup a lot. I like to focus on this one single fundamental aspect and the rest all seems to slot into place. Just remember that Yoshi likes to be above his opponent for approaches and you know when you should be retreating versus attacking. Just get yourself in the better position.

Isnt the first part reversed? Going torwards a yoshi from above is pretty dangerous. I found that getting in and having a really good time spacing nair and fair make the MU alot easier. Also I found out that edge guarding is ridiculously good if you can do it.

 

[Skitrel]

No. It's exactly as written. Fair works better when you're above your opponent so you should be pressing to get that hit. If your opponent is above you then you should be running to avoid his fair.

Focusing on this fundamental of the matchup translates to avoiding all Yoshi's aerial approaches, which always occur with the approaching Yoshi being slightly above the opponent.

Avoid staying grounded in the matchup. A grounded Yoshi is easy-pickings for an airborne Yoshi, not only do they have the position advantage that they want for applying Yoshi's bread and butter aerial approaches but a grounded Yoshi vs an airborn Yoshi is at a very distinct speed disadvantage. Airborn Yoshi is the fast aerial character in the game, a grounded Yoshi has no hope of retreating against it, don't be underneath an airborn Yoshi.

By fighting to be above the other Yoshi you win the matchup by having the best positioning to maintain your aerial advantage by delaying your descent with SHeggthrows, you have a speed advantage when the other Yoshi becomes grounded, you have the option advantage because you can deploy egglay from that position while they cannot, while you have the spacing advantage for deployment of fair and dair.

Sure Yoshi has uair and usmash as counters to this, but vs that myriad of options and the superior speed the air gives Yoshi I argue it's the superior strategy.

A final parting word - Unlike some characters in the game that can punish Yoshi for mis-spacing his eggthrow>egglay approach. Yoshi's slow grab can't punish it with an early grab before the egglay connects.

A Yoshi above the other has every option under the sun while having speed and offensive play on their side. The defensive Yoshi can't run for lack of speed and can't shield for lack of effectiveness.

***

But, like I said earlier - Don't over think it. Boil it down to the one fundamental to keep in mind - don't let Yoshi be above you in the matchup. It is where he wants to be.

 

[muddykips]

...why would yoshi want to perpetually be in a place where it's easier to die?
why cant you run under the other yoshi, especially during SH egg toss?
isn't it a good thing to be on the ground to catch the other yoshi when they try to land?
shouldn't another yoshi know when to shield, and know when the opponent is setting up for egglay?
what the heck is a fair going to do against ETS?

like, no, a yoshi over the other does NOT have every option under the sun. the way you wrote that makes it sound like you think the other guy's just gonna stand still.

you need to use alllll your options. all of them. the air is nice, but grounded is nice too. this is a ditto, you need to use all your tools. it's like a competition of who can out-tool the other guy.

 

[Delta-cod]

Aerial Yoshi is quite vulnerable, even to a grounded Yoshi.

Fair loses to shield... and trades (maybe) with Usmash. SHET loses to being run under. SHET > Egg Lay can be beaten with shield > Nair OOS or even something like shield > early spot dodge.

The long and the short of it is that whenever Yoshi jumps, you're pretty safe with a run up > shield approach. If he throws an egg, you just Usmash / something OoS. If he Fairs, you should be able to just shield drop and punish considering you've ruined his spacing. We can't DJC to fall down quickly with an Egg Lay anymore, so if you see Yoshi starting an empty landing, you Nair OoS. Or spotdodge to get around the Egg Lay. Either one works.

Yoshi may have the fastest air speed, but air speeds in general tend to be slower than ground speeds. Yoshi's air speed is about equivalent to Mario's run speed, maybe a bit faster. We run at least as fast as Mario, meaning Yoshi can run at about the same speed as he can fly through the air, at least.

 

[YoHeKing]

Idk I found the MU easier for me without many eggs. Like I only use eggs when im far away but I try to get in now and it works lol.

 

[noft]

No. It's exactly as written. Fair works better when you're above your opponent so you should be pressing to get that hit. If your opponent is above you then you should be running to avoid his fair.

Focusing on this fundamental of the matchup translates to avoiding all Yoshi's aerial approaches, which always occur with the approaching Yoshi being slightly above the opponent.

Avoid staying grounded in the matchup. A grounded Yoshi is easy-pickings for an airborne Yoshi, not only do they have the position advantage that they want for applying Yoshi's bread and butter aerial approaches but a grounded Yoshi vs an airborn Yoshi is at a very distinct speed disadvantage. Airborn Yoshi is the fast aerial character in the game, a grounded Yoshi has no hope of retreating against it, don't be underneath an airborn Yoshi.

By fighting to be above the other Yoshi you win the matchup by having the best positioning to maintain your aerial advantage by delaying your descent with SHeggthrows, you have a speed advantage when the other Yoshi becomes grounded, you have the option advantage because you can deploy egglay from that position while they cannot, while you have the spacing advantage for deployment of fair and dair.

Sure Yoshi has uair and usmash as counters to this, but vs that myriad of options and the superior speed the air gives Yoshi I argue it's the superior strategy.

A final parting word - Unlike some characters in the game that can punish Yoshi for mis-spacing his eggthrow>egglay approach. Yoshi's slow grab can't punish it with an early grab before the egglay connects.

A Yoshi above the other has every option under the sun while having speed and offensive play on their side. The defensive Yoshi can't run for lack of speed and can't shield for lack of effectiveness.

***

But, like I said earlier - Don't over think it. Boil it down to the one fundamental to keep in mind - don't let Yoshi be above you in the matchup. It is where he wants to be.

i got the pummel grab release into multi jab combo, will cut the video, its uploaded just needs to be trimmed lol

 

[YoHeKing]

i got the pummel grab release into multi jab combo, will cut the video, its uploaded just needs to be trimmed lol

Not a true combo right? I feel like Its a safe tactic though.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

It's ok sometimes; the opponent is free to shield and punish.

 

[noft]

No. It's exactly as written. Fair works better when you're above your opponent so you should be pressing to get that hit. If your opponent is above you then you should be running to avoid his fair.

Focusing on this fundamental of the matchup translates to avoiding all Yoshi's aerial approaches, which always occur with the approaching Yoshi being slightly above the opponent.

Avoid staying grounded in the matchup. A grounded Yoshi is easy-pickings for an airborne Yoshi, not only do they have the position advantage that they want for applying Yoshi's bread and butter aerial approaches but a grounded Yoshi vs an airborn Yoshi is at a very distinct speed disadvantage. Airborn Yoshi is the fast aerial character in the game, a grounded Yoshi has no hope of retreating against it, don't be underneath an airborn Yoshi.

By fighting to be above the other Yoshi you win the matchup by having the best positioning to maintain your aerial advantage by delaying your descent with SHeggthrows, you have a speed advantage when the other Yoshi becomes grounded, you have the option advantage because you can deploy egglay from that position while they cannot, while you have the spacing advantage for deployment of fair and dair.

Sure Yoshi has uair and usmash as counters to this, but vs that myriad of options and the superior speed the air gives Yoshi I argue it's the superior strategy.

A final parting word - Unlike some characters in the game that can punish Yoshi for mis-spacing his eggthrow>egglay approach. Yoshi's slow grab can't punish it with an early grab before the egglay connects.

A Yoshi above the other has every option under the sun while having speed and offensive play on their side. The defensive Yoshi can't run for lack of speed and can't shield for lack of effectiveness.

***

But, like I said earlier - Don't over think it. Boil it down to the one fundamental to keep in mind - don't let Yoshi be above you in the matchup. It is where he wants to be.

I know you said you wanted to see a regrab in the works, but i wasnt thinking about that. So if i manage to get one off ill keep ya posted.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

ohhhh that's what you meant. ._. That could be interesting... Wonder how much control the opponent has. Worth noting still that Fox's jab is faster so that shouldn't ever work on him really.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Most people can shield before our jab 1 even comes out btw. Pretty sure fast fallers are most of em (Fox greninja sheik etc.)

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Every character can afaik.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

Yoshi ditto is a swingy, sloppy mess that is further exacerbated by Yoshi’s poor defensive options. A lost of Yoshi’s tools are safer and more effective against Yoshi, usually giving the player who presses the most buttons the victory.

Yoshi’s full shield (while the best for blocking D-air), has especially limited vertical radius, thus is sub-optimal for stopping F-air and eggs. The shield is more efficient blocking horizontal blows than vertical/diagonal ones. There is not very much space between Yoshi and the attack when shielded, leading to late responses when compared to how these moves interact with bubble shields.

Yoshi’s lack of a frame 7 or below grab also hurts a lot, since Yoshi tends to be THE character to shield grab. Fortunately, OoS N-air exists.

The two primary ways I’ve seen decent Yoshi mirrors play is excessive F-air/D-air spacing or excessive egg tossing. Either one is fairly difficult for Yoshi to get in on, but it just takes patience.

I think SHAD > N-air/U-air is good in the MU when used as an air-spot-dodge or while retreating. If Yoshi approaches with dash or dash grab, there is typically enough endlag to SHAD U-air for the stock. Yoshi can SHAD > N-air forward through grounded egg toss and punish his endlag, but the timing is very strict and only works well against grounded egg toss. For SH and FH egg toss, I’ve found U-airs and rising D-airs to be effective.

I feel like Yoshi is more easily hit by Jab-1 > Yoshi Bomb than most other characters. It seems to catch his big nose pretty well. That’s a 22% combo that is very likely multiple times early in a stock, so it’s worth a shot.

The Yoshi ditto tends to go to the player with the most energy who wants to win more. I’m generally apathetic to the Yoshi MU, so I tend to be the more defensive player in the MU and suffer for it (sometimes, rarely, only once recently actually).

 

[YoHeKing]

Yoshi ditto is a swingy, sloppy mess that is further exacerbated by Yoshi’s poor defensive options. A lost of Yoshi’s tools are safer and more effective against Yoshi, usually giving the player who presses the most buttons the victory.

Yoshi’s full shield (while the best for blocking D-air), has especially limited vertical radius, thus is sub-optimal for stopping F-air and eggs. The shield is more efficient blocking horizontal blows than vertical/diagonal ones. There is not very much space between Yoshi and the attack when shielded, leading to late responses when compared to how these moves interact with bubble shields.

Yoshi’s lack of a frame 7 or below grab also hurts a lot, since Yoshi tends to be THE character to shield grab. Fortunately, OoS N-air exists.

The two primary ways I’ve seen decent Yoshi mirrors play is excessive F-air/D-air spacing or excessive egg tossing. Either one is fairly difficult for Yoshi to get in on, but it just takes patience.

I think SHAD > N-air/U-air is good in the MU when used as an air-spot-dodge or while retreating. If Yoshi approaches with dash or dash grab, there is typically enough endlag to SHAD U-air for the stock. Yoshi can SHAD > N-air forward through grounded egg toss and punish his endlag, but the timing is very strict and only works well against grounded egg toss. For SH and FH egg toss, I’ve found U-airs and rising D-airs to be effective.

I feel like Yoshi is more easily hit by Jab-1 > Yoshi Bomb than most other characters. It seems to catch his big nose pretty well. That’s a 22% combo that is very likely multiple times early in a stock, so it’s worth a shot.

The Yoshi ditto tends to go to the player with the most energy who wants to win more. I’m generally apathetic to the Yoshi MU, so I tend to be the more defensive player in the MU and suffer for it (sometimes, rarely, only once recently actually).

SHAD Is actually pretty bad. Maybe if you read your opponent though. But shad is really reactible and I never see it in high level play anyways. Its alright though.

Also non of yoshis jab set ups work for kills in the ditto. With correct DI or not yoshi can nair out, shield or jump away. Jab set ups are pretty good though anyways. Its just safer then using a up smash out of the blue haha.

 

[Skitrel]

I know you said you wanted to see a regrab in the works, but i wasnt thinking about that. So if i manage to get one off ill keep ya posted.

I knew this was generally feasible.

I know a bunch of people have pointed out that it's shieldable by all of the cast. But I've found it's possible to punish the shield use, and it's even more possible to punish someone that counter-jabs with a quicker jab as we can shield that instead of jabbing, so there's a lot of potential for it to be a mixup that the opponent has to guess with about 3 different possibilities.

It's definitely possible for jab1>grab to be used situationally I think. As people get better at performing Yoshi's jab cancel we're going to see interesting things come from this.

Our two posts should probably be in the lab though rather than here as it's not only relevant to this matchup. Sorry Delta.

 

[noft]

I knew this was generally feasible.

I know a bunch of people have pointed out that it's shieldable by all of the cast. But I've found it's possible to punish the shield use, and it's even more possible to punish someone that counter-jabs with a quicker jab as we can shield that instead of jabbing, so there's a lot of potential for it to be a mixup that the opponent has to guess with about 3 different possibilities.

It's definitely possible for jab1>grab to be used situationally I think. As people get better at performing Yoshi's jab cancel we're going to see interesting things come from this.

Our two posts should probably be in the lab though rather than here as it's not only relevant to this matchup. Sorry Delta.

ive got alot of time off work coming up so ill be able to make the new yoshi lab post, theres more options im going to put into vids(such ass up air outa eggroll hit cancel kill.source muddykips), pretty much @ YoHeKing and i are going to make vids and how to's for the new labs to have a better organization for the yoshi community.

 

[YoHeKing]

ive got alot of time off work coming up so ill be able to make the new yoshi lab post, theres more options im going to put into vids(such *** up air outa eggroll hit cancel kill.source muddykips), pretty much @ YoHeKing and i are going to make vids and how to's for the new labs to have a better organization for the yoshi community.

Yeah. I need to update some of my tech videos also.

But to keep on track of the thread I would say running into shield then into full hop nair is ridiculously good in the ditto and other MUs.

 

[noft]

Yeah. I need to update some of my tech videos also.

But to keep on track of the thread I would say running into shield then into full hop nair is ridiculously good in the ditto and other MUs.

fullhop nair oos is pretty good ngl, ucan lead it into a few different things, i didnt think about full hop nair but i thought about the dj nair

 

[Skitrel]

I managed to pick up a ditto for a memory refresher today.

I'm with the guy above that said "The Yoshi that throws out more moves wins". Leaving no moment without a spaced fair or dair between eggspam at longer range appears to be optimal. Inevitably because of Yoshi's lack of safeness style both are going to take hits, it's the Yoshi that throws more moves that gets more hits.

Spaced fair using the very tip of his nose tends to catch people out often.

 

[YoHeKing]

I feel like its all about spacing and getting in tbh.

 

[noft]

Im not so sure about that @ Skitrel , ive used a rush down Hitbox yoshi against muddykips, it did not work out so well, so i yad to come up with a few different strats to play against him, be it defensive, baitful, mindgames, i think its more mind games and patience, with passive aggro in some situations, once u get in their head it becomes the hitbox rushdown yoshi strat

 

[Scootch]

This MU doesn't seem very hard for me, but I don't play like a regular Yoshi player, so how would I know?