MU Discussion: Villager

[Nanlo]

This thread will be used to discus the villager matchup. I myself don't have too much knowledge on it but here are the few basic things I do know,

-Villager struggles up close, so getting in is a must.
-Using eggs is a great way to get in and disrupt his projectiles.
-However, villager can be considered the best zoner in the game so it isn't a cake walk doing so.
-Customs help villager GREATLY, they might even sway the matchup in villager's favor slightly.

But that's all I can really say, since i rarely play against him, but i would say it's about a 50:50 match up. Your input on the match up will be highly appreciated, and I hope to learn more on it!

 

[Delta-cod]

I've said it elsewhere, but I'll add it again here: I don't think Villager's zoning/camp game is a significant hurdle for us.

All his projectiles move linearly. Ours have an arc. This means we can just get above his line of zoning, drop an egg on him to disrupt him, then get in.

Things get a bit trickier with tree/customs, I imagine, but the underlying principle is the same. We have vastly superior mobility and a better projectile. So long as we respect his Nair once we get in though, he should be in a world of hurt.

As far as Customs Planking Villager goes, I'm pretty sure we can afford to do something dumb like jump off stage backwards > Fair to get him. His planking pattern isn't that fast. He's just gonna jump up, Lloid Rocket, then balloons back up. Let him do it a couple times so he lacks ledge invincibility, and then when you jump backwards at him, he's basically trapped into using Up B to recover to the ledge, minus invincibility. Free damage/kill, in my opinion. I don't think Village planking is scary to characters with good offstage games and aerial prowess. Annoying, perhaps, but not threatening in any meaningful way. That's also why I don't think we see customs villager really winning anything when it is allowed.

 

[YoHeKing]

Custom loid really isn't any better in the MU. Yoshi cancels it out way to much and its really slow.
Balloon trip is a suicide attempt in the MU.
Egg to any aerial will shut it down.
Pocketing Yoshis egg really isnt that good either.

Villager does not so bad attempting to gimp or kill yoshi offstage though.

Yoshi kinda shuts down villager but I wouldn't say the MU is to uneven.

 

[Rhydon65]

In my experience, fighting Villagers has gone like this:

1: Villager fires loid
2. I jump over loid
3. Villager jumps and fires slingshot
4. I airdodge, then boot him in the face
5. Villager runs away
6. Repeat steps 1 - 5 until Villager is at a high percent
7. KO the Villager

 

[Skitrel]

Oooh. Let me do one:

In my experience, fighting Villagers has gone like this:

1: Villager fires loid
2. I jump over loid
3. Villager jumps and fires slingshot
4. It misses due to egg throw, villager gets hit by both egg and nair/uair
5. Villager runs away
6. Repeat steps 1 - 5 until Villager is at a high percent
7. KO the Villager

Repeat and swap between eggthrow, airdodge and egglay dependent on Villager reactions.

Be wary of Villager uair and dair when attempting any juggling.

Not a matchup Yoshi struggles with but not unbalanced for Villager either. Yoshi only gets 1 or 2 hits per repeat of the pattern and Villager gets hits if he guesses which of the 3 approaches Yoshi will use.

Seems to be an even matchup. It goes more in Yoshi's favour if the Yoshi is REALLLLLY patient. Rushing seems to be a mistake against Villager and I see a lot of Yoshis losing the matchup by trying to rushdown against moves that could be avoided with a bit of patience.

The custom villager gimmick is easier than regular Villager. We handle the offstage camping better than most characters. I think it's a huge mistake for Villager to use that gimmick against Yoshi.

 

[YoHeKing]

In my experience, fighting Villagers has gone like this:

1: Villager fires loid
2. I jump over loid
3. Villager jumps and fires slingshot
4. I airdodge, then boot him in the face
5. Villager runs away
6. Repeat steps 1 - 5 until Villager is at a high percent
7. KO the Villager

Oooh. Let me do one:

In my experience, fighting Villagers has gone like this:

1: Villager fires loid
2. I jump over loid
3. Villager jumps and fires slingshot
4. It misses due to egg throw, villager gets hit by both egg and nair/uair
5. Villager runs away
6. Repeat steps 1 - 5 until Villager is at a high percent
7. KO the Villager

Repeat and swap between eggthrow, airdodge and egglay dependent on Villager reactions.

Be wary of Villager uair and dair when attempting any juggling.

Not a matchup Yoshi struggles with but not unbalanced for Villager either. Yoshi only gets 1 or 2 hits per repeat of the pattern and Villager gets hits if he guesses which of the 3 approaches Yoshi will use.

Seems to be an even matchup. It goes more in Yoshi's favour if the Yoshi is REALLLLLY patient. Rushing seems to be a mistake against Villager and I see a lot of Yoshis losing the matchup by trying to rushdown against moves that could be avoided with a bit of patience.

The custom villager gimmick is easier than regular Villager. We handle the offstage camping better than most characters. I think it's a huge mistake for Villager to use that gimmick against Yoshi.

Typical villager game. Except... alot of villagers also do alot of down airs. Just shield and up smash.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

...As a Villager main myself, I'll say the match up is definitely in Yoshi's favor bar customs. Although the lead is not extremely significant as shown at the Nebulous Prime Smash when RIBB: Zee went up against D.A: Dire .

Although i'm not sure if either Zee or Dire were experienced in the MU, I did know that Villager still had tools to

challenge Yoshi when he's above our linear Fair/Bair lining which is one reason to why the MU is still possible

for Villager and the fact that both Yoshi and Villager have a great Defensive/Camp game also shown in the

weekly tourney. Also remember the fact that Villager loves taking Yoshis to BF/DL for platforms since that

gives Villager a slight edge on Yoshi. So make sure you learn the stage and the MU so sets can be as fun and

entertaining as Dire's and Zee's was . (Just wanted to give you Yoshi mains a little insight since Rhydon65's

posts made me cringe a bit.)

http://www.twitch.tv/bum1six3/v/11245330 (At around 03:52:24)
Good Luck my fellow 's

 

[YoHeKing]

...As a Villager main myself, I'll say the match up is definitely in Yoshi's favor bar customs. Although the lead is not extremely significant as shown at the Nebulous Prime Smash when RIBB: Zee went up against D.A: Dire .

Although i'm not sure if either Zee or Dire were experienced in the MU, I did know that Villager still had tools to

challenge Yoshi when he's above our linear Fair/Bair lining which is one reason to why the MU is still possible

for Villager and the fact that both Yoshi and Villager have a great Defensive/Camp game also shown in the

weekly tourney. Also remember the fact that Villager loves taking Yoshis to BF/DL for platforms since that

gives Villager a slight edge on Yoshi. So make sure you learn the stage and the MU so sets can be as fun and

entertaining as Dire's and Zee's was . (Just wanted to give you Yoshi mains a little insight since some of the

posts in here made me cringe a bit.)

http://www.twitch.tv/bum1six3/v/11245330 (At around 03:52:24)
Good Luck my fellow 's

Kinda funny how yoshi cancels out like every move of villagers.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

Kinda funny how yoshi cancels out like every move of villagers.

Cancels out? Villager only has two multi hit moves, U-Tilt and Jab. Unless you're talking about his flutter jump armor.

 

[YoHeKing]

Cancels out? Villager only has two multi hit moves, U-Tilt and Jab. Unless you're talking about his flutter jump armor.

Yeah. Spaced nair and fair and tilts cancel out everything. Yesterday I got saved because I naired a bowling ball off a platform

 

[Fuerzo]

Yeah, my experience with the matchup says it's really in our favor. Uair and dair are the only things I struggle with in the matchup. Eggs are very strong to counter his camping game and he doesn't have much to push us away when we go rushdown.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

Yeah. Spaced nair and fair and tilts cancel out everything. Yesterday I got saved because I naired a bowling ball off a platform

Oh yeah, Bowling Ball has some stupid Priority. Luigi's foot can cancel out Bowling Ball, poor Villager.

Yeah, my experience with the matchup says it's really in our favor. Uair and dair are the only things I struggle with in the matchup. Eggs are very strong to counter his camping game and he doesn't have much to push us away when we go rushdown.

Do remember the MU can become sort of a stalemate if the Villager persists on pocketing and sending back every egg you through like in Zee's and Dire's set. (Also U-Tilt and Pivot Bowling Ball can also be hazardous for Yoshi in the MU since when a Yoshi plays offensive they usually commit to an aerial that a Villager can bait out. So watch out for that.)

 

[YoHeKing]

Do remember the MU can become sort of a stalemate if the Villager persists on pocketing and sending back every egg you through like in Zee's and Dire's set. (Also U-Tilt and Pivot Bowling Ball can also be hazardous for Yoshi in the MU since when a Yoshi plays offensive they usually commit to an aerial that a Villager can bait out. So watch out for that.)

DireOnFire?

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

DireOnFire?

Just look at the Livestream, you'll know who he is.

 

[YoHeKing]

Just look at the Livestream, you'll know who he is.

I know who he Is and he knows who I am. I use to play him alot.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

I know who he Is and he knows who I am. I use to play him alot.

During brawl?

 

[GSM_Dren]

Quoting my post from the Villager boards: http://smashboards.com/threads/town...tchup-discussion.370525/page-15#post-18742238

I feel that the matchup ratio is quite opposite, with Yoshi being +1 against Villager. The reason being is that Yoshi is definitely mobile enough to weave through the slingshot and lloid onslaught and beat up villager in close range. Both characters have fantastic projectiles, and either side can outcamp the other. Pocketed eggs are alright, but they only go in the trajectory they were thrown by the yoshi if i recall correctly.

Yoshi has a 3 frame jab and Nair that certainly gives him the edge in close combat. OoS options are nasty now that Yoshi has them, so space your attacks safely on his shield. Dash attack also serves to close the gap to quickly get underneath villagers who're SH slingshots or rockets. Yoshi has a heavy armor in his double jump which lasts for 1-69 frames I believe, you are able to knock him out of it if you do enough damage. Just know that he can quickly retaliate with a heavy armor'd Nair.

Egg toss is vital to keep up with villager's projectiles and tree wall. Seemingly, the stage control can go back and forth depending on how aggressive/defensive either player is. Slingshots are definitely annoying and can stop a lot of yoshi's approaches coupled with the rockets, but Yoshi can still get through pretty handily tossing eggs right back. With a confirmed hit from an egg toss, yoshi can easily follow up with a nair/fair or if egg toss is shielded, villager is in position to be command grabbed by egg lay.

Egg lay is one of yoshi's bread and butter moves that allows him to rack up more damage and setup for kills upon releasing from the egg with Usmash/Uair/Grounded yoshi bomb. It means that you'll have to keep on your toes and likely keep to the air to avoid the egg lay.

One of villager's strengths is definitely the ability to camp on the ledge as yoshi really can't do anything unless villager makes a mistake. At this point I just run to the other side of the stage to get him back on. If customs were on I would say this matchup would go to villager for the timber counter and exploding balloons for that camp game.

Villager can cover yoshi's approach from above handily with Usmash, but then you'd have to watch out for the B-reverse. Bowling ball/tree on the ledge is lethal as well if yoshi recovers low. Tree is just a great option to wall out yoshi and setup for those nasty sprouts/axe kills.

Overall, I think you guys may be underestimating yoshi in this matchup as he does have the tools to combat the projectile game, and close it out in the end.

Adding on to the discussion, I believe that the matchup is about even to at least slightly in yoshi or villager's favor. Villager has a very respectable jab and nair as well as Uair/Dair turnips to thwart any follow up from yoshi. I can agree that the key to the matchup is patience as yoshi has the tools to dodge projectiles and retaliate accordingly. Villager is annoying, but yoshi's mobility and eggs can handily deal with him.

 

[Garde Noir]

Okay, I'm going to weigh in. My sparring partner is a fairly good Villager, and having really only played this match-up, he really knows what Yoshi does, and how to exploit, whereas I have learned a good amount of what I can do against Villager as Yoshi (and Shulk but that's a different thread)

Stage

Smashville is my stage of choice. I love it because of the single moving platform that adds the dimension of combo capabilities for us, as well as a secondary approach option and a consistent way to Egg Lay, as well as a closer F-smash to offstage. Also, the platform rarely gets in the way of combo opportunities, and more importantly, Egg Tosses.

Most Villagers will probably pick Dreamland, as their recovery is insanely mobile, and I've seen Villagers recover from the bottom blast zone with room to spare. If you think you can win on Dreamland, start there so they cannot counterpick it.

Delfino Plaza is another CP I like, because the shifting stage tends to disrupt Villager combos, as well as stopping trees. Being near the walk-off is quite dangerous for Villager, so he's predictable in wanting to control Center, which is exploitable. Be incredibly aware of Stage Shifting, and use it to your advantage, and the entire stage can work against Villager.

I would try and stay away from Halberd, and Battlefield and especially MiiVerse if you can. Villagers great Aerial Game along with the platform's ability to stop Egg Tosses is crippling, and allows Villager to no longer respect the incredibly powerful Ground Pound. Tree also covers a lot more ground than you would expect, and can make reapproaching very difficult and Egg Toss nearly impossible.

Neutral

The Neutral game is by far the most important part, as this will specifically tell you the type of Villager you're playing, and therefore the way you need to approach them. A campy Villager will start with a Lloid Rocket, which they expect you to jump over. From there, expect a Fair, or a follow up dash attack. Fairs are more dangerous if you're going in, but Dash Attack Pot is one of the only ways a Villager can safely approach, which is one of the Villager's weakest points. From within that approach, in more campy spaces, we're in much more dangerous territory, so be careful. Shielding the Lloid is a good strat, though often times, I'll Egg Roll and try to hit him before the lloid is active. However, if the Villager rushes right in with a pot, this will stop you, and allow him to follow up.

Your best bets are Long Range Egg Tosses, to try and get him to dodge and give you a few frames of approach, or to approach with short hop Nairs. The Nair's hitbox takes down a lot of projectiles, and stops the Villager's approach game as well. From a hit, I'll often D-tilt to Dash Attack. Not always consistent, but pushing the Villager away is helpful, and then you see some panic button options that they'll default to.

Beware of Villager's Pocket. It's not only used to take in items, but gives him dodge frames, that are faster than a spot dodge. He can follow up incredibly quickly, and often times it just looks like you wiffed. Taking in an incoming egg can also be incredibly annoying, though it only comes out at a 45 and is not adjustable.

The key to the neutral in my opinion is your use of Eggs. This allows us to play a much more Melee-Marth style than a majority of our match-ups. And as Villagers tend to ignore spacing for distance, it gives us a slight advantage in the close game. Never underestimate your eggs-- and don't forget how long they can go! Also: eggs only get rid of a lloid once they've started moving!

Advantage

The advantage game is relatively simple in theory, but it's very hard to resist the temptation to spam attacks. F-smash is by far your best killing option, as recovery from the side is much more predictable than from below, and from above, Villager's turnips can be a massive pain to contest. Close after that is a well places Fair. Losing aerial placement is incredibly disorienting for all characters, but as Villager has no way of damaging while in recovery from below, it is a lot easier to follow up with a kill. Resist the urge to just fling an attack though, as it's much harder than it looks to hit ONLY the balloons and not the character. Up smash is Old Faithful after that, reliably killing Villagers resorting to platforms above, as well as ones who approach from the 45 degree.

Use Eggs to combo Villagers, as the stun frames is usually enough to get a much bigger hit, and bait out an air dodge or spot dodge. I often will approach with an egg to go for Nair into Dash

Disadvantage

Villager has incredibly fast and powerful aerials. Fair is really strong and very quick, but Bair looks the same, is faster and hits only a hair softer. Both come out faster than Nair, and are projectiles. As they have very few recovery frames, it's easy for Villager to pull this into combos. Dair has been known by me to hit me out of Uairs, even when it looks like I've deployed the attack first. Villager's Down tilt is also very fast and good combo fuel to go into Fair combos, and the Bowling Ball is shockingly larger than it appears. Jab is quick and hard to stop, and Villager has a few key moves that do far too much knockback for their own good. While not as much combo-like as Mario or Fox, it's not surprising to get locked into a chain of hits dealing 30+ percent with a Villager who knows their follow-ups. The key to the match is patience and waiting for them to make a mistake.

Recovery
Recovery is broken down into two parts, ours, and theirs, from side, above and below.
The best case scenario is that we are recovering FROM above, ie falling. B reversal, Egg Toss and an insane second jump give us mobility in the air that Villager can't contest without a fair amount of prediction. With the constant threat of an aerial Ground Pound, Villagers will constantly be dodging from right beneath you as well (though be careful, as their up-smash out-prioritizes Ground-Pound, though if you bait it out, it's recovery frames are great for punishing.)

Recovering from the side is much less secure, though its not terrible. As horrid as it sounds, try and use Second jump early, as Villager's myriad of projectiles can cost you it sooner than you'd like. After your second jump is gone, don't be afraid to get hit by a projectile to launch you up slightly. It's helped me recover several times. Switching off between Fair and Lloid is a common strategy, and knowing which one to get hit by and when is a key strategy.

Recovering from below means you've turned into a pin, and you'll see some bowling balls. Trees are also common, but it's more common to see the ball, as the time it takes to fire another one is much swifter. Unless you can hit the villager with an egg, or airdodge correctly, it's gonna be hard to hit ledge. If I see villager charging a bowling ball, I quickly try and get above him. It's not easy, and not always possible, but is the best strategy.


When Villager is recovering from above, bait out the Dair with an air dodge and do a late U-air. In its recovery frames, Villager has a huge target on his big stupid head. Try and go to the side and hit with Bair. It turns it into side recovery, which is much more reliable.

Villager recovering from below is incredibly predictable, he'll use Up-B. Try and hit only 1 balloon if you can with a well placed Egg. His mobility, both upwards and sideways, is decreased in half with only 1 balloon, and his time in the air is also decreased. You'll put a lot of pressure on him, and it's a lot easier to land a good hit. If you hit both, then you win. But if you hit him, he's able to do it again, which is incredibly annoying as he'll have gained a lot of height, and have his entire long recovery back.

Villager only has two good options for recovering from the side. He can use his up B, though is less likely in favor of the rocket. However, after one or two, he'll feign using the rocket, drop below and safely recover behind the rocket. Use an egg to break the rocket and follow up as though you're below.

All in all though, I'd only give it a 55:45 in our favor. We have a lot more options to kill, but it's the Villagers game, and he waits for you to get impatient. We're playing a stally character that can switch in and out of aggro instantly. Villager has a lot more options than people give him credit for, and many of them are much faster than we anticipate. However, our superior kill power and arced projectiles give us a slight advantage.

VIDEOS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK3GC9gkorQ -- S@X
Aposl does a great job in the neutral of knowing where to place eggs, but it's Cree's punishes that clutches stocks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YYYptHrq0M (start at 8:22) -- S@X
Much better Egg follow-ups by TC1, but this showcases a lot more of Cree's Fair power. Excellent out of shield options. Great showcase of Yoshi Kill options and of Villager's recovery
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUyzUevxyJg -- S@X
Interesting Neutral options, that pay off, once against we're watching Cree, who very clearly knows the match-up. Good showing of Villager's combos, and the trouble in recovering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaIXjqE6goo -- Smash United
Dojo is infinitely more offensive, while Wall plays more defensively. Wall has excellently placed shields and aerials,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXOUoqHyCbU -- Smash United
MJG plays very zoning, while noft goes super-aggro, and gets punished for it. MJG waits for noft, and noft has to play around him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wE1ynkIPBEk (Starts at 12:27)
AceStartheThird shows great ways for yoshi to punish villager,

 

[The Wall]

Honestly I don't think a huge post is required to say this.

Yoshi beats Villager. I played BC almost every week near Grand Finals or in Grand Finals in our weekly tournament for like 2 months straight. I won every single one. The turnips are about the only good thing villager has that will just out prioritize anything you do but outside of that he'll eventually revert to loid's and slingshots. When he does the SHAD comes into play and you're in his face now with the Timberlands. Gg ez

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

Honestly I don't think a huge post is required to say this.

Yoshi beats Villager. I played BC almost every week near Grand Finals or in Grand Finals in our weekly tournament for like 2 months straight. I won every single one. The turnips are about the only good thing villager has that will just out prioritize anything you do but outside of that he'll eventually revert to loid's and slingshots. When he does the SHAD comes into play and you're in his face now with the Timberlands. Gg ez

Has it occurred to you that most of the Villagers you've played against aren't really in the same skill level as you and they might be completely unaware of the MU. That's literally like me saying, "Ranai is constantly taking DIO out of pools, the Villager/Yoshi MU must be 0/100 Villagers favor." See how ignorant that sounds? (And BC tournaments hosted by Shadowlink?)

 

[Garde Noir]

Has it occurred to you that most of the Villagers you've played against aren't in the same skill level as you and they might be completely unaware of the MU. That's literally like me saying, "Ranai is constantly taking DIO out of pools, the Villager/Yoshi MU must be 0/100 Villagers favor." See how ignorant that sound?

he's the highlighted video in my huge post. The villager he plays is about the same skill level

Honestly I don't think a huge post is required to say this.

Yoshi beats Villager. I played BC almost every week near Grand Finals or in Grand Finals in our weekly tournament for like 2 months straight. I won every single one. The turnips are about the only good thing villager has that will just out prioritize anything you do but outside of that he'll eventually revert to loid's and slingshots. When he does the SHAD comes into play and you're in his face now with the Timberlands. Gg ez

But as the devil's advocate, you've had a ton of experience against Villager, this post is more for the people who haven't. Do you have suggestions for those who don't have the experience you do?

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

he's the highlighted video in my huge post. The villager he plays is about the same skill level

But as the devil's advocate, you've had a ton of experience against Villager, this post is more for the people who haven't. Do you have suggestions for those who don't have the experience you do?

Against Cree? BC? BC resorts to camping out Yoshi instead of playing the MU aggressive/passive aggressive. Unless Yoshi is exerting egg pressure from a safe distance than that's when things start getting pretty defensive pocket wise.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Difference from Ranai to BC, Tommy, is one Villager is aggressive and calculated as ****, another is holding right before we can even choose smashville, trying to time out on stage select.
Yoshi devastates camping villagers, we've all come to this agreement.

I think this MU is more of even/0, even though the Yoshi vs Villager MU discussion was many months ago (therefore patches too) it's outdated but it boiled down to even.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

Difference from Ranai to BC, Tommy is One villager is aggressive and calculated as ****, another is holding right before we can even choose smashville, trying to time out on stage select.

Exactly, and you don't want to resort to playing the MU in the way BC usually does. BC might be a good player, but I doubt hes really up to date with how the MU is suppose to be played.

 

[Lukingordex]

I'd just like to say that SH Air dodge is not exactly a free win against villager because he can react by nairing a little before the end of your air dodge animation and actually hit you.

I do believe Yoshi wins the match up but I don't think SH air dodge will always work against villager's projectile game, of course it's a good option to punish the ending lag of his "preparing lloyd animation" and such, but please do also explore other kind of options or else you're gonna get predictable.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'd just like to say that SH Air dodge is not exactly a free win against villager because he can react by nairing a little before the end of your air dodge animation and actually hit you.

That's pretty much exactly what happened numerous times in the Ranai/DIO video.

 

[Garde Noir]

Exactly, and you don't want to resort to playing the MU in the way BC usually does. BC might be a good player, but I doubt hes really up to date with how the MU is suppose to be played.

No, the one that says Dojo plays more offensively while the Wall plays more defensively. The Green highlighted video? The only one that's green?
We're all saying the same thing here. Campy Villagers lose.
The ones that win are the ones that go in and out of defense and offense, which is exactly what our character does. This entire guide is when and how to do that, and how to predict when Villager is going to do that.
Can we work off of that?

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

No, the one that says Dojo plays more offensively while the Wall plays more defensively. The Green highlighted video? The only one that's green?
We're all saying the same thing here. Campy Villagers lose.
The ones that win are the ones that go in and out of defense and offense, which is exactly what our character does. This entire guide is when and how to do that, and how to predict when Villager is going to do that.
Can we work off of that?

Go ahead.

 

[Garde Noir]

So where does Yoshi suffer? Why is it that in 4 of the 6 videos posted, Yoshi loses? Common strategies, ways to approach, stopping the approach
And now we're back to my long post.

 

[The Wall]

You sound rather angry at me saying that Yoshi beats Villager. To say BC is inexperienced in the match up is pretty funny because honestly we've played each other almost every week for probably 4-5 months straight now in bracket, let alone in friendlies on top of that. He has THE MOST experience in Texas against me.

Yoshi beats villager. He has the tools and the speed to beat out a slow character like Villager. You posting a video of Ranai vs Dio can be skewed the exact same way you did to me. Maybe Dio just isn't playing the matchup correctly. Maybe he's inexperienced in the matchup.

To say BC is campy vs me is hilarious. Every time we play I have to actually camp him out. I throw eggs and run away until he messes up and capitalize. Even ask the people from our scene or in Texas. I'm one of the safest and campiest Yoshi's around despite what you may think is happening from watching videos of me.

-edit- I'll leave up what I said before and just throw this in here since it applies. I just watched the first match between Dio / Ranai. Dio is playing that matchup horribly. Landing on shield with nair, threw a dash grab in the neutral right after Ranai had planted a tree and therefore had axe active... just stupid stuff I'm seeing. I'm not going to discount his ability as a Yoshi player but it seemed to me like he was making rookie mistakes vs a Villager.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

You sound rather angry at me saying that Yoshi beats Villager. To say BC is inexperienced in the match up is pretty funny because honestly we've played each other almost every week for probably 4-5 months straight now in bracket, let alone in friendlies on top of that. He has THE MOST experience in Texas against me.

Yoshi beats villager. He has the tools and the speed to beat out a slow character like Villager. You posting a video of Ranai vs Dio can be skewed the exact same way you did to me. Maybe Dio just isn't playing the matchup correctly. Maybe he's inexperienced in the matchup.

To say BC is campy vs me is hilarious. Every time we play I have to actually camp him out. I throw eggs and run away until he messes up and capitalize. Even ask the people from our scene or in Texas. I'm one of the safest and campiest Yoshi's around despite what you may think is happening from watching videos of me.

-edit- I'll leave up what I said before and just throw this in here since it applies. I just watched the first match between Dio / Ranai. Dio is playing that matchup horribly. Landing on shield with nair, threw a dash grab in the neutral right after Ranai had planted a tree and therefore had axe active... just stupid stuff I'm seeing. I'm not going to discount his ability as a Yoshi player but it seemed to me like he was making rookie mistakes vs a Villager.

"You posting a video of Ranai vs Dio can be skewed the exact same way you did to me. Maybe Dio just isn't

playing the matchup correctly. Maybe he's inexperienced in the matchup." That's the exact point I was trying to

bring up, inexperience. I used it as reference, and playing BC repeatedly doesn't mean anything if he isn't

learning from all the times you played him. I mean does it seem as though he's even tried anything new

between the first time he played you compared to the most recent times? To me it just seems as though he's

not playing the MU right and its clear as day. Which brings back the same point as before, you can't judge a

whole MU on one single Villager. (And saying you usually tend to camp him out more than he does you doesn't

really seem true from the last few times I seen you two play. I see heavy footsies between the two of you but I

rarely saw you resort to camping with eggs. Maybe in friendlies off stream, i don't know.)

Dio is playing that matchup horribly. Landing on shield with nair, threw a dash grab in the neutral right after Ranai had planted a tree and therefore had axe active... just stupid stuff I'm seeing. I'm not going to discount his ability as a Yoshi player but it seemed to me like he was making rookie mistakes vs a Villager.

Exactly, remember when I said what if I based the Yoshi/Villager (0-100) mu on everytime Dio played Ranai?
This is basically what you've been doing.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

You sound rather angry at me saying that Yoshi beats Villager.

And yeah you're kinda right here, but i'm not mad that you think the Yoshi/Villager MU is free. I'm only annoyed with how sure and unopen you were of it, "Honestly I don't think a huge post is required to say this." and, "-he'll eventually revert to loid's and slingshots. (Which isn't true, it's just what BC likes to throw out in Neutral along with whiffed SH fairs to punish jumps you never go for since you tend to stay grounded when you're close to him.) When he does the SHAD comes into play and you're in his face now with the Timberlands. Gg ez." It reminds me of Rhydon65's post.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Double postin'
Gettin' a little too heated up etc. etc.

MU isn't in either characters favor and this next part will always be true in discussions for matchups in Smash, it can't be based on just one player (not including the side arguing) judging the entire MU cause you beat some locals, it's heavily skewing your perception into thinking Yoshi wins every matchup.

Also SHAD is bad, we all realized this once we learned Aiba was playing online the entire time when we first saw him doing it back in jan. It's just plain awful and tends to give you no reward or punished more than half the time, if you're getting away with airdodges why not just empty hop at that point.
It's not some holy go to tactic that'll save our neutral, otherwise if it was a lot of us would be doing better than usual.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

Double postin'
Gettin' a little too heated up etc. etc.

MU isn't in either characters favor and this next part will always be true in discussions for matchups in Smash, it can't be based on just one player (not including the side arguing) judging the entire MU cause you beat some locals, it's heavily skewing your perception into thinking Yoshi wins every matchup.

Also SHAD is bad, we all realized this once we learned Aiba was playing online the entire time when we first saw him doing it back in jan. It's just plain awful and tends to give you no reward or punished more than half the time, if you're getting away with airdodges why not just empty hop at that point.
It's not some holy go to tactic that'll save our neutral, otherwise if it was a lot of us would be doing better than usual.

I agree with you there, thank you for being the instigator.

 

[Sinister Slush]

The idea behind discussing match ups is theorycrafting that both players are the same skill level, like dinocopter 400 that gets next to last at his/her weeklies and isabellalover69.
If a better match up in question is available (like ranai/dio) then that'd be a much better start at top/high level for discussing the match up instead of being stuck with the lowest common denominator, unless we get more local vids (in terms of country) to talk about like say MJG vs X Yoshi.

Pretty sure most of us can agree BC and Wall aren't the same skill level based on him saying he wins between them every single time, most likely hit a mental block against Wall that he can't get past if he's able to confidently say that he always wins.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

The idea discussing matchups is theorycrafting that both players are the same skill level, like dinocopter 400 that gets next to last at his/her weeklies and isabellalover69.
If a better match up in question is available (like ranai/dio) then that'd be a much better start at top/high level for discussing the match up instead of being stuck with the lowest common denominator, unless we get more local vids (in terms of country) to talk about like say MJG vs X Yoshi.

Pretty sure most of us can agree BC and Wall aren't the same skill level based on him saying he wins between them every single time, most likely hit a mental block against Wall that he can't get past if he's able to confidently say that he always wins.

Once RiBB | Zee finishes his finals this week, we at most will see him back at NPS where he and DA | Dire are practically at the same skill level and they are seemingly familiar with the MU.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Forgot to mention of course that as we use the top/high level match as a base, we eventually start working down to see how the MU looks the further we go down.

For example how the Nintendo balance team takes FFA, for glory, and 1P into account when doing character balancing. So unless we actually have to go as far down as the isabellalover69 and dinocopter400, we still would say possibly brawl IC vs ganon is -4 at top level even with the other mid/low level IC ganon matches.

 

[The Wall]

I said what I said with confidence because of the tools presented to both characters.

Villager has a low damage ranged fair/bair to keep Yoshi away that only kills if launched and hit at melee range. Up air's and down air's from villager go from jab lock setups to absolute spikes or kills off the top. Despite the randomness to the number you get, it's an overall great attack with a lingering box and beats most anything thrown at it from the same direction. Villager nair is fast, lingers, and is a decent tool if used properly (short hop nair immediately so if you hit shield you float away unpunished and such). Low damage though and will rarely kill unless getting a sweet gimp near the ledge or far below.

Now look at Yoshi. Fair is a great tool that outright kills with spike, or the bad hitbox can actually true combo into the spike hitbox. Has relatively low landing lag even if not auto-cancelled. Only downside is it extends your hurtbox with it. Yoshi Up air is an amazing kill and combo tool in the same button. Single hit so you never have to worry about them falling out of a multi hit, has no bad hitbox, and kills at a very nice percent. Down air, probably the best attack in the game. Brings shields to literal skittle sizes or breaks them if used in combination with an egg. 32 damage on a full target who sucks at DI'ing (expect to net 20-25 on someone who has decent hands). Did I mention shield break because lol??!?! Yoshi Nair, another amazing tool. Hitbox extends both in front and behind Yoshi, lingers, is a great combo tool, and can also kill. Frame 3. Yoshi back-air, probably the worst aerial tool in our kit though still not bad. 3 hits, with the final being able to KO at decent percentages and gets much better with rage. Can also lame spike or drag people down with the first 2 hits and fast falling which leads into more combo's and potential. Very hard move to tech properly on a stage spike due to the massive hitstun delay.

So if you look at it from that point of view, you'd say maybe Villager can keep Yoshi out with proper spacing of Fair/Bair and use the turnips any time he gets close to just out prioritize anything Yoshi throws at him. This just doesn't remain true when you watch anyone play. The main stickler is just that villager is slower. Less air speed, much less ground speed. With Yoshi able to close the gap so easily on space alone, if that villager is not timing EVERY nair/fair/bair/upair/downair perfectly, chances are they're going to trade. Guess what? Yoshi's aerials do much more damage than Villager ones do. Trading is a loss for Villager.

The best thing villager has in this match up is the fact you have a few early kill options with good reads. Either frame trapping a recovery with chopped tree, outright edge guarding with bowling ball if they go low vertically, or possible pocket options in 2v2. If you have any brain about you though you can never get hit by any of those. I understand, heat of the moment **** happens, and it's happened to me getting hit by trees or a ledge roll getting read with a bowling ball. That doesn't mean it was a character difference though, that was the player losing. Not that character.

Since everyone here seems to think that BC is hot ass at villager and Ranai is an utter god, fine. We'll throw their results to the wayside because it doesn't matter. If you had 2 perfectly even players on Yoshi and Villager, the Yoshi SHOULD win.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Neither character has anything substantial or super game breaking against each other. If the villager camps only then Yoshi wins, if the villager can switch from playstyles mid match then Yoshi loses most of the time.
There's a difference from saying BC is bad and "he's not learning in a MU he's apparently played hundreds of times"
Though dunno how a villager dominating an entire country for months doesn't mean he's good, that seems backwards.


You can list every single one of Yoshi's strengths all you want, it still doesn't mean much if the villager can play the keep out game well and able to abuse his good edgeguarding due to his recovery.
Onstage, he doesn't need to trade aerials as you say with Yoshi because his aerials already outrange (all except nair) and out disjoint Yoshi's (turnips), even if a fair from us does 12+% villager can keep us out and most likely juggle us with fairs for 4/7% that links up into 2 or 3 of them. Saying villager should never land melee range fair/bair isn't true either, it happens eventually to everyone.
Villager nair is also 9% sweetspot and sourspot is 5%, Yoshi is 10% and 7/5% how is 9% low?

No matter what match up, saying X move on Y character should never land doesn't ever happen, even ganon utilt in brawl lands on people if put in a situation where they can't avoid it.
As for the damage output, 2.5 4 and 7% while bair is 3 5 9% is a decent number for aerials, especially if they can shoot out three of those by the time Yoshi's starting up his 2nd fair. You can't say 7/9% is low % when stuff like our strongest throw for example is 7% and the rest is 4%
Saying you should never die or get hit by melee range fair is silly as well cause that happens not even 40 seconds into the match of you vs bc that was linked earlier. The knockback growth on both of those is insane too, so it wouldn't be too farfetched to die from the move.


There's a lot of holes in your argument but I honestly don't feel like tackling them all, feel like it won't get us anywhere as evidenced by this entire page and the fact an update is literally less than 60 hours away, so who knows if Yoshi villager or even more game mechanics gets changed.

As for the whole mistakes from DIO, I think it's cause he's human maybe :^)
He still played well against Ranai either way, who knows how the matches that happens offstream between them goes. I believe in DIO and you guys should too.

 

[Tommy - S.N.]

I said what I said with confidence because of the tools presented to both characters.

Villager has a low damage ranged fair/bair to keep Yoshi away that only kills if launched and hit at melee range. Up air's and down air's from villager go from jab lock setups to absolute spikes or kills off the top. Despite the randomness to the number you get, it's an overall great attack with a lingering box and beats most anything thrown at it from the same direction. Villager nair is fast, lingers, and is a decent tool if used properly (short hop nair immediately so if you hit shield you float away unpunished and such). Low damage though and will rarely kill unless getting a sweet gimp near the ledge or far below.

Now look at Yoshi. Fair is a great tool that outright kills with spike, or the bad hitbox can actually true combo into the spike hitbox. Has relatively low landing lag even if not auto-cancelled. Only downside is it extends your hurtbox with it. Yoshi Up air is an amazing kill and combo tool in the same button. Single hit so you never have to worry about them falling out of a multi hit, has no bad hitbox, and kills at a very nice percent. Down air, probably the best attack in the game. Brings shields to literal skittle sizes or breaks them if used in combination with an egg. 32 damage on a full target who sucks at DI'ing (expect to net 20-25 on someone who has decent hands). Did I mention shield break because lol??!?! Yoshi Nair, another amazing tool. Hitbox extends both in front and behind Yoshi, lingers, is a great combo tool, and can also kill. Frame 3. Yoshi back-air, probably the worst aerial tool in our kit though still not bad. 3 hits, with the final being able to KO at decent percentages and gets much better with rage. Can also lame spike or drag people down with the first 2 hits and fast falling which leads into more combo's and potential. Very hard move to tech properly on a stage spike due to the massive hitstun delay.

So if you look at it from that point of view, you'd say maybe Villager can keep Yoshi out with proper spacing of Fair/Bair and use the turnips any time he gets close to just out prioritize anything Yoshi throws at him. This just doesn't remain true when you watch anyone play. The main stickler is just that villager is slower. Less air speed, much less ground speed. With Yoshi able to close the gap so easily on space alone, if that villager is not timing EVERY nair/fair/bair/upair/downair perfectly, chances are they're going to trade. Guess what? Yoshi's aerials do much more damage than Villager ones do. Trading is a loss for Villager.

The best thing villager has in this match up is the fact you have a few early kill options with good reads. Either frame trapping a recovery with chopped tree, outright edge guarding with bowling ball if they go low vertically, or possible pocket options in 2v2. If you have any brain about you though you can never get hit by any of those. I understand, heat of the moment **** happens, and it's happened to me getting hit by trees or a ledge roll getting read with a bowling ball. That doesn't mean it was a character difference though, that was the player losing. Not that character.

Since everyone here seems to think that BC is hot *** at villager and Ranai is an utter god, fine. We'll throw their results to the wayside because it doesn't matter. If you had 2 perfectly even players on Yoshi and Villager, the Yoshi SHOULD win.

This is getting frustrating, I can see you're becoming obnoxiously one sided. For one thing, no one is saying Villager beats Yoshi and you're getting really defensive about it. Most of us all can agree that the MU is even, ill even go ask Dire on twitter since it seems he has the most Villager experience (arguable.)

Note: Can I add, you mentioned the good and the (argueble) bad aspects of Villager without touching them in-detail and then you describe the amazing capabilities in great detail of only Yoshis good qualities. You even go into talking about frame data, but did you realize that Villager too has great frame data? (I.E. his Nair and Jab that are both Frame 3 and his Nair will usually trade with Yoshis in some situation. Even if there is a small percentage difference, it still resets the situation which is more than important.)

So again this means you're being incredibly one sided which is something you don't want to be in an argument regarding MUs especially.