MU discussion: Bowser

[Nikes]

Decided it's time to kick things off, any important info will be added to this post so you guys won't have to dig through pages to get an understanding of the matchup.

Here we'll discuss the Bowser MU in how it plays out and how to avoid getting killed by drop kicks.
Bowser has gotten a huge buff all over making him extremely deadly if you're not alert, but he's still juggle material and susceptible to gimping/early% spikes.

Matchup ratio: Coming soon.

Key notes:
*Eggs eggs eggs. They setup for anything especially against huge characters. It's not a matchup that you should camp in though, since we're still too quick for him and we can duck in and out.
*Egg lay is your panic move if he's getting in your space and you're not ready for him.
*It's a good idea to bait a move out from him and punish from there, rather than recklessly charging in.


Baseline is don't get hit because everything of his will leave you with wounds, and you'll notice them-but at the same time, being too afraid of getting hit can be a bigger threat than Bowser himself. Stay on your toes.

 

[~Rainbow Mika]

Against Bowsah, i like to pivot grab/grab A LOT, most bowsah players tries to use his jabs/fsmash for zoning, so i punish them with dthrow to uair juggles, sometimes i also use flutter kick and keep the Circle pad up when doing it (makes all the kicks hit without landing).
Egg Throws are also really good against huge characters and Lay is good for mindgames if he's trying to punish your grab.
If he's in the air, DON'T TRY TO ATTACK HIM, he can bowser bomb or dair you and that's really painful, try to confuse him (like going below him and escape if he's trying to bomb you) when he's trying to recover, take care of his claw and do a nair instead of a fair, since it has less startup and has good knockback for gimp.
Shield is dangerous since he can break it with bomb or smashes, so don't overuse it.
And finally, don't panic, he's as dangeurous as Little Mac, but if you play smart and don't just spam dash attack, he can be beaten without much problem.

 

[jeck95]

Egg throw is great and egg lay is great for mix ups. Make him whiff attacks and punish really hard.

 

[Shiri]

This matchup remains largely the same.

Bowser up and down smashes both have increased range horizontally.
Bowser's jab is a bit faster it seems.
Bowser's up tilt is bigger than before, but still doesn't completely arc to his back.
Bowser's forward smash is bigger and hits harder than before, but is much much slower.
Bowser's back air is bigger and has more utility than before, but starts up slower it seems.
Whirling Fortress is no longer invulnerable, but it can still be used to stuff gaps in your offense.
Bowser's edgeguarding is a bit easier with faster moves, less recovery and more air mobility than before.

Yoshi still doesn't really use up smash in this matchup.
Egg Lay. Anywhere. Everywhere.
Lots of people here seem really fascinated with down air; I don't think the risk is worth it in general but especially here. If you touch the ground outside of autocancel timing, Bowser will more than likely get a free jab/turnaround jab/Whirling Fortress on you.
Back air is good, but retreating with it is better. If you advance with back air, you must hit with it. If you're poking with back air, you must drift away after the third tail swipe unless you have enough time to squeeze out an Egg Toss or Egg Lay on your way down.
Do not jab or down air with Bowser at low percents. Jabbing at higher percents is encouraged.

 

[Terotrous]

I find this matchup somewhat hard. Bowser's moveset is actually kind of similar to Yoshi's, except slower and more powerful, obviously. This tends to lead to a lot of back and forth trading of blows at most ranges, but as a Yoshi player you really don't want that because Bowser hits harder and survives longer. One of the biggest issues is that you must be very cautious about chasing Bowser to the air, if you commit too hard he can do down B, and unlike Greninja you definitely can't armor through this one. Whirling Fortress is also annoying, as noted it's very solid at punishing any gaps in your offense, and even if Bowser initiates it during the startup of one of your attacks it will usually clank, so it's deceptively safe. It's also possible to use grounded Whirling Fortress to clank Eggs while advancing forward, thus eliminating a lot of Yoshi's projectile game, though I was trying this myself vs the AI last night and it's harder than it looks.

As with most problem matchups, short hop neutral B is probably the equalizer. I still think this matchup is slightly in Bowser's favour though.

 

[Sinister Slush]

No matter how much I think about it I do not see a similarity with Bowser's moveset to Yoshi's.

 

[Terotrous]

No matter how much I think about it I do not see a similarity with Bowser's moveset to Yoshi's.

Jab, Dash Attack, Dtilt, and DownB are obviously very similar to Yoshi. Ftilt, FSmash, and Utilt don't look that similar, but functionally their usage is nearly identical. Both also have a command grab, though their usage is a little different.

I don't know, it just seems to me that at mid to close range they're usually pushing the same kind of buttons to the same effect, which is why I find they tend to trade blows back and forth.

 

[chipndip]

I actually fear a good Bowser. I normally act like I got answers for any topic on this site, but I'ma just chime in to say...heaven help me. q_q

Not a scrub, but a seriously good Bowser on the level of some of my other friends using their best characters...I just don't think I can deal. Not sure since the last time I fought something like this was a while ago, and I'm way better now (thus I changed from Yellow -> Light Blue), but still.

 

[WheelerFGC]

I find this matchup somewhat hard. Bowser's moveset is actually kind of similar to Yoshi's, except slower and more powerful, obviously. This tends to lead to a lot of back and forth trading of blows at most ranges, but as a Yoshi player you really don't want that because Bowser hits harder and survives longer.

What? I don'tnecessarily see the similarities.

 

[Z-Bone]

I find Bowser to be one of the easiest matchups for Yoshi. I love fighting large characters. Eggs for days. I switch back and forth from being very defensive with eggs to ambushing, and it usually throws the opponent off. Baiting Bowser Bombs is also good fun, just don't try to shield it!

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I find Bowser to be one of the easiest matchups for Yoshi. I love fighting large characters. Eggs for days. I switch back and forth from being very defensive with eggs to ambushing, and it usually throws the opponent off. Baiting Bowser Bombs is also good fun, just don't try to shield it!

I am a Bowser main who has fought a fair number of Yoshis. Yoshi definitely does have the edge in attack speed and the aerial game. However, I can deal with Egg spam by either run-shielding or being aggressive in spacing to deter them from Egg usage and force them into melee combat, which Bowser can deal with provided the Bowser player is smart with the slowness of several of his attacks. A Bowser who knows a Yoshi matchup is fearsome, though. I can punish an overly aggressive Yoshi with an Up-B out of shield against his attacks, or shieldgrab him and make use of Bowser's powerful throws.

 

[Z-Bone]

Thanks for that insight. Surprisingly, I haven't come across a single Bowser that I would consider "good" on For Glory, so maybe I'm a bit overconfident in this matchup. I'll look out for some of those techniques the next time I encounter a Bowser.

Also, the eggs are much more effective when Bowser is in the air. Some players like you are smart and find ways in through the eggs, though.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

@ Z Z-Bone A good zoning tool (pretty much the only one) that Bowser has is Fire Breath. That is what I use to break down a Egg-happy Yoshi. Though a smart Yoshi will be able to find a way around it. Many good Yoshis I encounter know to keep piling on the damage on Bowser, but pretty much that works as a double edged sword in that while it makes Bowser easier to finish off, the rage mechanic comes into play and makes Bowser even deadlier. Never let your guard down on a raged Bowser. Even as a Bowser, I speak from experience because Bowser's power works well even against himself. Bowser is a non-threat once he's dead. Take advantage of the fact that Bowser's fearsome strength is offset by the slow attack speed in most of his killer moves, so your superior attack speed, aerial game, and debilitating multi-hit moves will come into play considerably against Bowser.

A good Bowser is feared in For Glory mode due to his extreme power. For reference, the lowest I've ever killed anyone (with the v1.0.4 update) is at 52%. Fifty-two percent in non-rage mode. I landed a fully charged sweet spotted Fsmash on a Sheik player and it knocked her from 18% to 52% and a KO. The highest I've ever survived was at 265% damage, so you have to keep pressuring Bowser preferably by knocking him into the air and throwing him offstage, forcing him to recover. Bowser's aerial game might not be the best, but his Back Air is tremendously strong and one of Bowser's main aerial finishers. His Forward Air has the ability to hit people under him and behind him. And his Down Air can meteor. Be especially watchful for a Bowser who has a strong aerial game as well.

 

[Z-Bone]

I need to find you online. I'm sick of playing lousy Bowsers who are so easily baited into using a Bowser Bomb over and over again.

 

[Hitman JT]

The juggles...you Yoshis and your damn juggles, make it stop T_T
If the Bowser can't powershield the eggs, Yoshi wins. Free. He's too fat to do much else about them.
Against an overaggressive Yoshi I use pivot grabs a lot to snatch him out the air. And it conveniently has more range than Yoshi's neutral B, should they go for the mix-up.
But this match-up is still a pain. I don't know if the patch changed the cooldown lag on Yoshi's anything, but I would have a hard time punishing him with anything but an OoS Fortress, and even that doesn't always work. Yoshi can or could even jab-jab, then jab-jab again before I can or could try to whiff punish. Yeah, we have the range and power advantage, but Yoshi racks up like 50% damage for every f-tilt I hit him with.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I need to find you online. I'm sick of playing lousy Bowsers who are so easily baited into using a Bowser Bomb over and over again.

Shoot me your FC and I can spar with you to give you some matchup experience. @ C chipndip also asked in the Bowser board to look for good Bowser players for him to get matchup experience. I also would like to get the matchup experience against Yoshi, since a good Yoshi is extremely troublesome to me. Both of you are in the central time zone, so you're just two hours ahead of me (I am in southern Caifornia), so I can arrange some sparring with either of you sometime. I'm in a university, so my playtime online is not consistent.

Here's a video of how I can use Bowser's tremendous power on the unaware:

 

[chipndip]

Shoot me your FC and I can spar with you to give you some matchup experience. @ C chipndip also asked in the Bowser board to look for good Bowser players for him to get matchup experience. I also would like to get the matchup experience against Yoshi, since a good Yoshi is extremely troublesome to me. Both of you are in the central time zone, so you're just two hours ahead of me (I am in southern Caifornia), so I can arrange some sparring with either of you sometime. I'm in a university, so my playtime online is not consistent.

Here's a video of how I can use Bowser's tremendous power on the unaware:

My FC is in my sig. I'ma add yours in after a LoL match.

 

[Z-Bone]

Hey Raiden, do you have the Wii U version? If you do, look me up on Miiverse (Z-Bone) and send me a friend request. I'd like to play you some time.

 

[superyoshi64]

from what ive seen Bowser is easy to punish if he trys to attack i can just roll behind him and do as i please to him (this works best when he uses Fsmash
also eggs will be a huge pain due to the fact that bowser is slow so this will rack up damage easly i think yoshi wins this

 

[Lukingordex]

In Battlefield: +1 Bowser

In every other stage: +1/+2 Yoshi

 

[Delta-cod]

What's so special about BF?

 

[GSM_Dren]

If you guys ever fight a custom Side B special 2 (Dash slash) Bowser, he's a monster. I faced MrEh in tournament, a through and through Bowser main, and it's a nightmare for Yoshi to get in. Overall I do think Yoshi has an advantage, but Bowser's buffs make him a much tougher opponent now compared to Brawl.

Egg throw and egg lay is a saving grace for this matchup, but Bowser is much quicker now and can punish with a run up shield grab if you become to overzealous with eggs. Bowser's Usmash is quick and has an autoguard (I learned this the hard way several times!) He's more fearsome in close combat now due to this and his attacks come out fast too.

Dash slash is a gap closer and gives Bowser much needed horizontal movement, his best custom IMO. I'm not certain about his other customs, but this custom singlehandedly sets Bowser up to be higher on the tier list. When inputted after a short hop close to the ground, it has properties similar to that of a wavedash. It's scary! It gives Bowser plenty of options and movement.

And like our Yoshi bomb, Bowser bomb breaks shield, ouch. My advice for this matchup would be to make sure your egg hits home, where it has little room to be punished, because Bowser will be able to maneuver through them. Egg lay is also good to rack the percents, but it was difficult punishing out of egg because I'd get nair'd every time.

Do not be afraid to go toe-to-toe with bowser; while he is scarier now, Yoshi does have an advantage. I was way too intimidated by the dash slash, which led to my downfall when I lost the tournament set.

 

[Lukingordex]

What's so special about BF?

Bowser is REALLY good in that stage.

Rage effect + side B and gg you're dead at like 75% due to the top platform. Also this stage helps Bowser at approaching Yoshi.

 

[Shiri]

Bowser's command grab shouldn't be a (consistent) factor because he can only dictate the landing point when he has the percentage lead.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Bowser is REALLY good in that stage.

Rage effect + side B and gg you're dead at like 75% due to the top platform. Also this stage helps Bowser at approaching Yoshi.

Serious question, how does it help him approach us?