Move/Combo % Research Thread (Jab In Progress) (For Real This Time)

[r_greening1]

Hey gorls! Have you tried to D-tilt an opponent at the beginning of a match, only to have them go through it like nothing and punch you in the mouth?

{Insert gif here}
Well that's Zelda for you.

The purpose of this thread is to research the percentages when Zelda's moves become safe or optimal to use. To be considered "safe" or "optimal", it will knock the opponent into a tumbling animation. Tumbling puts them in a disadvantageous position and will limit their options for a retaliation. As a consequence, this also means percentages for any other possible combo from said move will be recorded.

tl;dr This is a combo compendium of sorts

All percentages are taken from Training Mode​

Which means that:

• Rage is not taken into account
• Staling is not taken into account

Some Notes:

• The percentages listed under strings like Jab>DA, is the range where Training Mode counts it as a combo.
  
• Jab is spaced to where it hits the opponent 3 times
• Ftilt is NOT angled

Spoiler: JAB

|Jab>DA|Jab>Ftilt|Jab>Utilt|Jab>Fair|Jab>Nair|Jab>Grab|Jab>JC Usmash?|Tumble %
Mario|0 - 58|0 - 11|N/A|3 - 38 (23^)|N/A|?|N/A|39
Luigi|0|--|--|--|--|--|--|39
Peach|0|--|--|--|--|--|--|37
Bowser|0|--|--|--|--|--|--|47
Yoshi|0|--|--|--|--|--|--|41
Rosalina|0|--|--|--|--|--|--|35
Bowser Jr.|0|--|--|--|--|--|--|41
Wario|0 - 66|--|--|--|--|--|--|42
Donkey Kong|0 - 71 (79)*|--|--|--|--|--|--|45
Diddy Kong|0 - 57 (58)*|--|--|--|--|--|--|38
Mr. Game and Watch|0 - 48|--|--|--|--|--|--|34
Little Mac|0 - 60 (?)**|--|--|--|--|--|--|36
Link|0 - 61|--|--|--|--|--|--|41
Zorldo|0 - 56 (?)**|--|--|--|--|--|--|36
Sheik|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|36
Ganondorf|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|43
Toon Link|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|38
Samus|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|42
Zero Suit Samus|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|35
Pit|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|39
Palutena|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|38
Marf|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|38
Ike|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|42
Robin|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|39
Duck Hunt|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|38
Kirby|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|35
King Dedede|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|44
Meta Knight|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|35
Fox|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|35
Falco|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|36
Pikachu|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|37
Charizard|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|44
Lucario|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|40
Jigglypuff|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|32
Greninja|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|39
R.O.B.|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|41
Ebola|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|39
Captain Falcon|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|41
Villager|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|39
Olimar|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|35
WiiFit Trainer|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|39/40
Shulk***|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|40
Doctor Mario|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|39
Dark Pit|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|39
Lucina|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|38
Pac-Man|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|39
Mega Man|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|40
Sonic|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|39
Mewtwo|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|
Lucas|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|39
Roy|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|39
Ryu|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|41

* denotes unspaced jab i.e. used as close as possible
**Strange stuff is going on. It's consistent with its inconsistency. Super close jab>DA isn't working on the first try; but if it's done right after the opponent stands back up from the ground, it works.
*** No Monado arts activated
^Fair started sweetspotting for me here. Buffer a dash during jab and do a rising Fair to get it to connect.

Any questions regarding a move's hitbox, duration, endlag, etc. See:http://smashboards.com/threads/the-great-fairy-fountain-ii-zelda-data-research-repository.370698/

 

[r_greening1]

To Do List:

• Finish Jab
• Start and finish dtilt, utilt, ftilt, aerials, throws, etc.
  
• Assemble any and all combos and stuff
  
• Make the thread and tables pretty and concise
• Ask @Suicidal_Donuts about his dair research
• Buy Mewtwo :^)

Spoiler: Changes Log:

• 9/12/15- Put data into the Jab table (Mostly Tumble %) and reworded Thread Title and Intro Post to be easier to understand

Notes:

• I will be filling out the table little by little on the weekends or whenever I have time off. I want to finish it in a timely manner for you gorls, but it can't take priority over things like school or my job.

 

[evmaxy54]

Research is scheduled for approximately 15 hours, so stay tuned :^)

15 hours?!?!? I could watch marshmallow erotica in this time SMH -_-

 

[Meek Moths]

wat is goin on

 

[Zylach]

So this'll be a pseudo-guide on how specifically to use Zelda's best tools in neutral? Given open discussion of course. Though I'm not sure how much more we can add given we've analyzed all of these moves on the moveset analysis thread but I'm open to more discussion, especially on the intricacies of Zelda's neutral game since it's so mediocre and any advice is helpful. Also, @ evmaxy54 , I'm gonna forget I read that.

 

[r_greening1]

So this'll be a pseudo-guide on how specifically to use Zelda's best tools in neutral? Given open discussion of course. Though I'm not sure how much more we can add given we've analyzed all of these moves on the moveset analysis thread but I'm open to more discussion, especially on the intricacies of Zelda's neutral game since it's so mediocre and any advice is helpful. Also, @ evmaxy54 , I'm gonna forget I read that.

I'm not interested in "how" to use those moves, because you gorls have already had that discussion. I'm interested in "when" to use those moves. We always say "Do x at low percent" , but when is Low percent? It's a little too vague for my liking. I aim to record the percents where you can start a string or maybe throw out a "get-off-me" attack without having to worry about a counterattack or punish. To do that, I'm looking for when our attacks, like jab, initiate a tumble animation or put them into a situation where they have to tech. I was wanting to do this since Zer0 mentioned that he studied when Sheik's F-air starts to knock others into tumble, and I've also taken some inspiration from here

http://smashboards.com/threads/shei...-into-usmash-beginning-combo-percents.385002/

 

[Katy Parry]

It's Tuesday. I

 

[Alphatron]

I'm generally wary of using dtilt at low percentages.

 

[Rebel13]

Dtilt tends to have the other player land in between hits at low percents, but this causes hitstun landing lag (is that a thing? or is this just regular landing lag?) so they cant avoid the followup, namely another Dtilt or a grab. Just mentioning this since it's not actually tumble animation but it's actually the optimal time to use the move. err........

 

[Zylach]

Dtilt can be safely used multiple times in a row at low percents depending on the character you're using it on. Against fastfallers, it's a bad idea because they'll land in between dtilts and can jab you. I often like to do dtilt>jab but it doesn't work on so many characters because they can land and jab me before I can get my own jab out. Generally, it's safer to do this kind of combo starting around 20%-ish.

 

[r_greening1]

I'm not going to lie, but life is smacking me around at the moment. Mark my words, I will start to post percentages by THIS Friday. If I don't, I'm a filthy liar and will never be anything else for the rest of my life.

Thank you for your patience.

 

[AncientCode42]

So is this a thread of Zelda's moveset or her MUs? Well there was already one on Zelda's moveset.

 

[BJN39]

No, this is a WIP chart thread for certain percent-range based uses for some of her combo friendly moves. So, combo % data. Atm no data has been put in the tables yet, though.

 

[KarmaCastle]

Dtilt can be safely used multiple times in a row at low percents depending on the character you're using it on. Against fastfallers, it's a bad idea because they'll land in between dtilts and can jab you. I often like to do dtilt>jab but it doesn't work on so many characters because they can land and jab me before I can get my own jab out. Generally, it's safer to do this kind of combo starting around 20%-ish.

Dtilt > jab > dash attack sweetspot is guaranteed against almost everyone in the pre 40-50ish range, depending on weight and fall categories of course.

Zero was able to dtilt>dtilt>dsmash consistently in his For Glory episode against heavy characters, which is something I hadn't really tried out too often myself.

I do find it difficult to figure out when to go for dtilt>grab or to keep trying to scrape up some damage. Which is what this thread will solve <3

 

[r_greening1]

So jab may be a little while lol There's SO many percent ranges to test, and I have some questions about jab @ BJN39

I'll just finish the tumble percentages now, since that's what I was going to test initially.

 

[MOI-ARI]

So is this kinda what you are doing?

Spoiler

Here are somewhat specific Percent 'data' on when the combo, Fast fall Dair > FaroresElevator, kills for each character since each character dies at a certain percentage. The combo stops working about 7%-10% after the marked percent.


Fast fall Dair-(landLagCancel)->Farores Wind >KO
~~~~~Executional Percentages~~~~

-(51%MegaMan...)
-(50% King DDD, _Cpt Falcon_)
-(55%DK)
-(49%Wario)
-(48%Bowser jr, Ike)
-(46%diddy kong,Ganondorf,_Lucario_)
-(45%Bowser,Link, Duck Hunt, ROB)
-(44% Shulk,Smash-[24%] __Sheild__[150%-167%)
-(43%Lil Mac, Charizard,Dr.Mario,Lucina,Marth)
-(42%Mario,Pit)
-(41% Robin,Dark Pit)
-(40% PacMan, Sonic)
-(39%Samus,ZSS,MetaKnight, Fox, Falco, Villager)
-(37%Sheik, PikaFreak, Greninja, Ness)
-(36%Toon Link, WiiFitTrainer)
-(35%Zelda,Palutena, Olimar)
-(40%yoshi,)
-(33%Rosalina,kirby,,Luigi,Peach)
-32% Kirby , Mewtwo)
-(29%GW)
-(25% Jigglypuff ):


"(character__)"= 'Inconsistent.'

Spoiler

Well if it is feel free to use this when you reach Dair...<\3

 

[r_greening1]

So is this kinda what you are doing?

Spoiler

Here are somewhat specific Percent 'data' on when the combo, Fast fall > FaroresElevator, kills for each character since each character dies at a certain percentage. The combo stops working about 7%-10% after the marked percent.


Fast fall Dair-(landLagCancel)->Farores Wind >KO
~~~~~Executional Percentages~~~~

-(51%MegaMan...)
-(50% King DDD, _Cpt Falcon_)
-(55%DK)
-(49%Wario)
-(48%Bowser jr, Ike)
-(46%diddy kong,Ganondorf,_Lucario_)
-(45%Bowser,Link, Duck Hunt, ROB)
-(44% Shulk,Smash-[24%] __Sheild__[150%-167%)
-(43%Lil Mac, Charizard,Dr.Mario,Lucina,Marth)
-(42%Mario,Pit)
-(41% Robin,Dark Pit)
-(40% PacMan, Sonic)
-(39%Samus,ZSS,MetaKnight, Fox, Falco, Villager)
-(37%Sheik, PikaFreak, Greninja, Ness)
-(36%Toon Link, WiiFitTrainer)
-(35%Zelda,Palutena, Olimar)
-(40%yoshi,)
-(33%Rosalina,kirby,,Luigi,Peach)
-32% Kirby , Mewtwo)
-(29%GW)
-(25% Jigglypuff ):

"(character__)"= 'Inconsistent.'

Well if it is feel free to use this when you reach Dair...<\3

Aww sweet!! Thank you!

 

[MOI-ARI]

Aww sweet!! Thank you!

Cool no problem heheh ^_^"

 

[BJN39]

So jab may be a little while lol There's SO many percent ranges to test, and I have some questions about jab @ BJN39

I'll just finish the tumble percentages now, since that's what I was going to test initially.

Questions for Zelda Momma? Like what?

 

[Rickster]

Oh oh I have a question.

Did the BKB increase on Jab in the patch actually...change anything? I ask because I'm having a really hard time believing that some of our Jab combos were never discovered until after the patch (or at least documented or talked about). Specifically Jab>Fair and Nair. Like how did we never talk about those? (Unless I missed it which in that case I'm just silly)

 

[r_greening1]

Questions for Zelda Momma? Like what?

Well I'm having this weird Jab hitbox phenomenon. I'm hitting somebody up close with a jab then DA'ing, but the jab knocks them too far and too high to follow up. They land on the other side and I position myself directly in front of them again at the same percentage and try the same thing when they stand up, but this time the jab sends them about 30 degrees off of the horizontal and I'm able to combo a DA. This has happened with Little Mac and Zorldo so far. Am I getting a different hitbox?

 

[BJN39]

Well I'm having this weird Jab hitbox phenomenon. I'm hitting somebody up close with a jab then DA'ing, but the jab knocks them too far and too high to follow up. They land on the other side and I position myself directly in front of them again at the same percentage and try the same thing when they stand up, but this time the jab sends them about 30 degrees off of the horizontal and I'm able to combo a DA. This has happened with Little Mac and Zorldo so far. Am I getting a different hitbox?

There is a possible way to get different final hit angle results, actually.

A Sakurai angle hitbox will hit at 45 against aerial targets, but has a changing angle for grounded targets dependent on th KB stats of the hitbox. For Jab at low percents this would be near to 0 degrees.

Applied for Jab: All of the final hit hitboxes are Sakurai angles, but on hits 1 and 2, only the innermost hitbox has one, while the others use an upwards/inward angle. (Added in 1.1.0, helps with connecting the hits.) so if you initiate Jab on a grounded opponent from:

- Point-blank: there's a high chance they will be hit ONLY with the multihit Sakurai angle twice, which will keep them on the ground, then a Sakurai angled final hit ofc, which will send them away at a low angle and they'll slide away.

- Spaced somewhat, or not point-blank really: then the target will be put airborne slightly during the first two hits by the up/in angle, and then the final hit will send them at a 45 degree angle.
^ This outcome is actually better IMO, since they aren't sent as far because the angle is higher, and they don't slide across the ground. In my experience I get more successful dash grabs and dash attacks off of a semi-spaced Jab ending in an aerial target Sakurai angle hit.

Basically, depending on if you hit at point-blank or not, you will get differing final hit angles, and one is kinda better, bot NOT harder to land. (Thankfully!) Kind of strange, but I hope I explained it well enough to understand.

 

[MOI-ARI]

Maaaan. I always had a feeling jab was random in that aspect. No wonder stuff like Jab > Ftilt and Jab > Fair would only work sometimes. Kinda lame but eh. Now i know. xD

 

[Rickster]

It messes me up too sometimes. I've kinda "programmed" myself to always do a follow-up after Jab, but when I get the crappy hitbox, I end up whiffing and getting punished.

But then again I guess the better point blank Attack would be Dtilt or Utilt rather than Jab.

 

[BJN39]

It's actually pretty easy to land the more advantageous hit scheme, and uncommon to land the worse one. Admittedly it will probably still happen, and knowing Zelda, it'll happen at a less than opportune time. 1.1.0 made it way easier to get the better hit scheme on a consistent basis, though.

It messes me up too sometimes. I've kinda "programmed" myself to always do a follow-up after Jab, but when I get the crappy hitbox, I end up whiffing and getting punished.

But then again I guess the better point blank Attack would be Dtilt or Utilt rather than Jab.

Oh lol I have that problem too. It's better though to attempt it every time and miss one or two than doubt yourself on every use of Jab and miss a free followup. Zelda needs to score every bit if damage she can get.