Social Mount Dedede - His Majesty's Social Thread (Come in and Introduce Yourself!)

[randomguy1235]

Please daddy Sakurai, gives us teh buffs

 

[Krysco]

Nah guys, all we need is either a kill throw or a throw to a kill confirm at high %s. Just like all of the other top tiers (save for the few unique ones like ). Best we've got atm is dthrow to uair. As for other buffs, I'd love it if gordos got that 3% threshold back that it had at launch.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Eh, Dedede needs a bit more than a kill throw. That's definitely near the top of the list of the buffs I want for him though. Cleaner frame data is probably the number 1 priority, Dedede's approach options are all just really bad.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

If Nair and Ftilt were safe on shield, and Inhale had better frame data or grab armor, I would never ask for another buff again. Those three things would make me so happy.

And regards to kill throws, FThrow does kill at like 120 with rage. Which yeah it's not THAT helpful, but it's a lot better than nothing. Especially given that most of the toptiers are pretty light.

 

[Putuk]

I want uThrow to kill for it's volleyball animation alone.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

If Nair and Ftilt were safe on shield, and Inhale had better frame data or grab armor, I would never ask for another buff again. Those three things would make me so happy.

And regards to kill throws, FThrow does kill at like 120 with rage. Which yeah it's not THAT helpful, but it's a lot better than nothing. Especially given that most of the toptiers are pretty light.

Fthrow with rage, when you have to be near the edge of the stage, isn't super reliable, is the problem... Charizard can consistently take stocks around 140-ish (without rage) even with good DI, and sooner with rage + platforms. Sheik forces people into a situation where if you airdodge you eat her up b, or if you don't you get hit by uair. Plus she has f/bthrow into bouncing fish near the edge. And I'm not even going to talk about the absurdity of Ness' bthrow (lmao).

With regards to making Dedede's grab game more threatening at high percents, I'm not sure what I would do. Honestly I almost think they should just make dthrow - uair more consistent across low to high percents, it's already his BnB and you're not radically altering how the character plays. Plus it's not like we don't already have characters with consistent combos and kills off of dthrow in this game (Luigi >_>).

But yeah Dedede really just needs to be safer on shield/have safer landing options, plus (imo) that kill confirm from grab I keep asking for. And if they're feeling REALLY generous faster jab 1/2? Or at least speed up the transition from jab 1 to jab 2 so that our jab doesn't get completely stuffed out.

There's other small changes I would like to see as well, like Gordo buffed to/above pre-patch %, maybe make usmash somewhat stronger across all of its hitboxes, cut a couple of frames of lag from dtilt because that move is hilarious and I want to use it more, just things that wouldn't change much about Dedede but make him overall better, but if we have the above stuff I don't think we would really need this stuff, at least not yet.

 

[Green L]

Why does everything have to come from grabs? Man, why not something cool and original? What if Dedede could do an uptilt to upair? Not every followup has to come from grabs. Dedede doesn't "need" a ko from a grab. The character can function just fine without it

 

[KeithTheGeek]

That's just the meta we're in right now. Defensive options are king, and grab is one of two options Dedede has to threaten shields, with the other being inhale....which is a second grab that Dedede can't even combo from. Having a good grab and an okay command grab aren't bad things to have at all in this game, but Dedede does jack squat from them at medium-high percents onward without your opponent actively di-ing into Dedede's next attack.

And for Dedede specifically, it just fits in with his play style. Doesn't matter the game you're playing, if you use Dedede and don't use grab you're using him wrong, period. It's one of his few good CQ tools he has. It's simply the most seamless and simple change they could implement.

Is that the only change I want? Of course not. I want a lot of things that could make Dedede better in small ways. Making Jet Hammer a shield breaker would be wonderful, for starters, and it would be nice for dair to have a use (maybe burying opponents on stage?). But there's a fairly clear trend for the top characters having good combo and kill potential off of their throws.

Take away Sheik's throw options and you still have a very good character, but you suddenly lost one of your most reliable ways to put people into potential kill situations. Luigi would struggle because suddenly he can't confirm a down b or up b from his throw. Ness loses his most important ko tool.

The other reason I suggest Dedede get a better throw is that it's near impossible for him to move in against a defensive opponent. Most characters in the game can just lame him out. And when you do get in...then what? Most of your ground options are too slow to do anything with. Fair, Bair? Shielded on reaction. Characters that are much faster than Dedede can secure stocks from a grab. To me it just makes sense that if the Dedede player manages to worm his way in, he should be able to reap some sort of reward from that - and not just to reset back to neutral, or initiate an edge-guard situation if you're lucky.

So if you're wondering, yeah I think he can work without grab, but unless they were to seriously speed him up or make all of his attacks safe on shield he'd still be fundamentally flawed (in the context of Smash 4) without better kill potential from grab. Is it a little unimaginative? Maybe. But he needs something fast if they want to make him viable, and to me it's more logical to improve on his strengths - which are his grab game, off-stage game, and ability to mix-up his landing options better than nearly any other character in the game (almost a moot point because each of those landing options range from bad to okay, but whatever).

 

[Green L]

Dedede has plenty of ko power from his up air and his back air and his smashes are really powerful. There's no need for another typical down throw character. Just because the character doesn't have a kill confirm from a grab doesn't mean Dedede can't grab at all. If you think d3 is having trouble with shields, simply grab them and use them for stage positioning and edgeguarding.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Thank you for letting me know I'm bad with my character.

I never said Dedede should never grab at all. I grab all the time with Dedede, either with his actual grab or with inhale for positional advantage. But Dedede is slow and the lack of follow ups above medium percents means more characters can reset things back to neutral against him.

And I'm very well aware of how strong his aerials are. The problem is actually connecting with them, with or without a grab. You aren't going to pretend Dedede has as simple of a time as Sheik or Luigi to land attacks, are you?

Dedede is in an awkward place where he isn't very technical, but requires a lot of effort to play because of how much positioning and stage control factors into his gameplan. Yet he gets very little reward from actually being played well, you win neutral but because you're Dedede the other player can reset back to neutral. Dedede is all about punishes, conditioning, and reads...but this hardly works at high level play because this requires you to be waaaaay better than your opponent if they're using any of the characters that beat Dedede...which at this rate is looking like more than half the cast as other characters get buffed and Dedede doesn't.

I'm not interested in discussing this further but you can't just say "oh Dedede doesn't need a kill grab/better kill potential, you should just git gud" because at a certain point the character actively limits your potential. If I want to start winning tournaments I either need to level up way past the top threats or go get good with a character that isn't pooped on by the top 15 characters in the game, plus a handful of mid-to-low tiers.

 

[Green L]

I never said you needed to "git good". Landing attacks as luigi isn't easy as he's not a speedster like fox or aerial mobility like diddy. As I said before, throws are for stage control.

 

[Putuk]

Geez, you're putting it like you don't want better grabs.

 

[Krysco]

My post about a kill confirm off of a grab was largely a joke. It is true that good grab games run rampant in the top and high tiers with very few exceptions and it's not unheard of for characters to obtain kill confirms off of grabs through patches . It IS very unoriginal but grab games are largely what make or break a good character. is no longer the top tier of the game thanks to losing his kill confirm grab and a bunch of other stuff and wishes he had his grab game from previous games, kill confirm or not.

It's not original but a better grab game is an easy way to make a character better. Either that or give us plenty of moves with shield damage.

 

[Green L]

Characters like Sonic, peach, pac man are proof that characters don't need to live off of grabs to be viable. What's wrong with doing combos without grabs? Although I do think it's shallow that DK went up a few tiers just because of cargo up throw.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Sonic's grab game actually isn't that bad, pretty much all of his throws have some use or another. Granted it's not stellar, but it is a part of his game. Without grabs Sonic would be a worse character because his ability to threaten shielding opponents would be way worse.

And it's not like Dedede "needs" grab to live, nor does Sheik or any other character with a good grab game. But they do become much worse off without it.

Like, let's use the example in your first post. What would utilt-uair do to benefit Dedede? That gives him one combo to use at high percents...on a character that's not going to land said utilt in the first place without making a hard read. Dedede's kit isn't too terrible, it just needs a lot of cleaning up before he becomes viable. And making would help tie everything together.

I don't know why you seem to have an issue with my suggestions, as pretty much everything I've asked for (both in this thread and elsewhere) would fit into Dedede's existing gameplan nicely. I don't want to make too many assumptions, but my guess is that you don't play this character, right? At the very least you seem to be a Luigi main judging from your icon and username. Wouldn't it bother you if I said "Luigi doesn't need his grab to be good, just give him utilt to up b and he'd be fine"?

It's just like...if you're going to suggest how to rebalance a character you don't even play, at the very least suggest changes that work with the character's strengths and address its flaws in a balanced way. Dedede could be amazing if they took away the lag from all of his attacks and made Gordo impossible to reflect, without changing how his throws works, but that goes completely against the way the character is designed and wouldn't be very well balanced. And beyond that you haven't really attempted to address my points beyond "grab is so unoriginal." Well, yeah it is, but it's also been a part of Dedede's game since 2008.

 

[Krysco]

Sonic got his kill throw nerfed and most Sonic's weren't too happy about it. Pac-Man is one of those lovely exception characters like Fox, Villager and Rosalina, and Peach is underused although she does have an existing grab game.

Dedede doesn't need kill confirms or massive damage output from grabs, it's just an easy, unoriginal solution to making him more viable. Honestly, the whole 'down throw to whatever' thing that most top and high tier characters have in this game stems from this game still being defense friendly and with the nerf to airdodges, most people rely on shields to save them, hence why I said we could have massive shield damage on our moves instead of a top tier grab game.

I think an amusing buff to Dedede would be if they made the threshold to Gordo's much greater. Like 10% is probably going too far but it'd be nice if Gordo's became a tool that other powerful characters could still ignore but the weaklings like Sheik and MK would have to respect.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

Up tilt into up air is a thing btw. It isn't always true, but I've done it plenty of times before. Like a lot of Dedede's combos, it only works in certain situations and can't be consistently repeated.
Dedede isn't science, he's art.

 

[JetSwerve]

Dedede isn't science, he's art.

In that case...

Eh? Eh? S=]

 

[KeithTheGeek]

So I'm just gonna say I was in a bit of a foul mood yesterday - probably woke up on the wrong side of the bed or something. Realistically, I don't think I'm ever gonna drop Dedede, buffs or not...I've invested way to much time into this character and even my next best character (which is probably ROB) only performs almost as well just because he's a bit better than Dedede. In terms of results, my Dedede is simply more consistent. I very rarely have a bad day with Dedede, while I've had days where my ROB was utter garbage.

Even if I was to switch mains for viability reasons, they would probably either be co-mains with Dedede or Dedede would simply be delegated to a secondary. He's too fun not to keep using and he's pulled through for a lot of tough matches for me.

 

[Krysco]

Then there's me '-' I've practically dropped the King. He's still fun and he's still one of my best characters but I only play FG dubs with my cousin where D3 is dumb, both to be and to fight. Gordos are much harder to hit back at D3 online and as D3 you can get away with throwing smash attack after smash attack since your partner can cover you during your end lag. Heck, one of the reasons I picked up G&W was because on FG he's a perfect D3 counter.

I still love the King but I'd rather not group myself with the very toxic my cousin and I choose to fight.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Then there's me '-' I've practically dropped the King.

You dont drop Dedede.

Dedede drops you.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

I like the idea of doing a ton of shield damage. That would make us so scary. It kind of makes sense too: a big mallet would easily shatter a glass bubble.
Just imagine regularly breaking shields from hammer-based moves like bairs and dairs. The idea alone makes me giddy. The opponent's game would turn into "How can I punish him without being utterly trashed?"

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Due to DDD's many exploitable weaknesses and bad counters, the thought has passed through my mind that if I ever want to win tournaments I need to find another character, but I can't possibly drop DDD. There are many reasons why I am proud to main the king:
First of all, the DDD community is by far the friendliest, funniest, and most agreeable community out of EVERY character that I play (see entire list in my signature). No other community is quite as welcoming or fun to be a part of (thanks guys!).
Second of all, I have put so much work into DDD, as I have played twice as many games with him than all other characters combined. I'm not going to abandon all that work ever.
Third, just imagine how good DDD can get with a few small buffs, and here is my wishlist:
• A kill throw - last update Charizard got a kill throw, and quite a good one at that, and a combo throw (but we already have that) and he immediately became twice as viable, just like that! Can we get that? I believe this is actually somewhat likely!
• Project M's Jet Hammer - I played project M for the first time the other day, and wow! DDD's jet hammer comes out fast! And has little end lag! And it's still balanced! I don't really believe this will be changed still, but boy is it awesome!
• Projectile's can't hit back gordos - I hate facing characters that can use the weakest of projectiles to safely hit it back at me. I'm not saying that gordos should just go through any projectile, because that would be a bit unfair, and then everyone else would be complaining for the same reasons we are right now. Instead, why not just make both the gordo and projectile clash and disappear? Or maybe just stop the gordo's movement rather than send it flying back? I don't care if the weakest of Nairs send it back, because at least that takes skill, but projectiles? Those are a bit too easy to use, and require zero commitment. I don't know how likely this is, but I really want it!
But yeah, unless Flygon gets added as DLC (chances: 0%), DDD will forever be my main.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I think projectiles reflecting the Gordo is okay, in theory. It's only dumb in practice because literally every projectile outside of Sheik's needles (which are dumb enough as it is) can reflect them. So for example, a fully charged blast from Samus, Mega Man, Mewtwo, or Lucario? Perfectly fine by me. Lemons bouncing them back? We have a serious problem right there.

And I agree, PM's Jet Hammer is great and I've been advocating for it since day 1.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

First of all, the DDD community is by far the friendliest, funniest, and most agreeable community out of EVERY character that I play (see entire list in my signature). No other community is quite as welcoming or fun to be a part of (thanks guys!).

Aw, shucks.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

By the way, with the patch coming in tomorrow obviously there's the possibility (no matter how slim) of changes. So, uh, basically I guess I'm wondering if anyone here knows how to read the data dumps we usually get within a week of having the patch. Just in case Dedede is changed....

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Our lord and savior Dantarion should help with that

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ghidorah14]

Due to DDD's many exploitable weaknesses and bad counters, the thought has passed through my mind that if I ever want to win tournaments I need to find another character, but I can't possibly drop DDD.

While D3 is perfect in every way and possibly S+++ tier, I do think it's important that everyone, no matter your main, learn at least one top tier character.

Sometimes the good king needs to let "lessers" fight on his behalf when he cant be bothered dealing with so-called "bad matchups."

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Get up Shield damage nerf is indeed universal.

No other changes to Falcon, no changes to DDD or Diddy.

Skipping around now.

No other changes to Falcon, no changes to DDD or Diddy.

no changes to DDD

On the positive side of things, Luigi was nerfed I guess.

Well, time to wait another 2 months to see if Dedede gets buffed. In the mean time...we all gotta git gud.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

Wait, so shields take less damage now?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Kinda. Most moves do the same amount of shield damage as before, only a couple of attacks had their shield damage buffed, various things like Marth's Shield Break and DK's Headbutt took a hit, and there was a global change to get-up attacks. So basically shields are the same as before, but the characters who could threaten them with things other than grabs are less effective at it.

 

[randomguy1235]

While I'm more than happy for the buffs Bowser and Samus have received, I'm kinda dumbfounded that King Dedede remains untouched...

 

[KeithTheGeek]

To be fair, we could still have some alterations to our frame data that weren't in the data Thinkaman was looking at. Not all of the data has been dumped yet, but you know...not holdin' my breath.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

Aw, I was really hoping Fsmash and Jet Hammer would be even stronger shield breakers than before...

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Speeding up Jet Hammer and making it do more shield damage would literally be all that attack needs to actually have a purpose in Dedede's kit. We won't know if anything in particular got sped up/slowed down for Dedede unless someone is able to do side-by-side testing or until Dantarion dumps the remaining data.

EDIT: Not sure of the dynamics of it yet, but a lot of people seem to have noticed that shield stun has been increased. So we MIGHT have gotten safer on shield, someone would need to test that.

EDIT 2: Just to confirm...this means Dedede got WORSE, right? Our shields getting worse means our non-existent grounded approach options just went up in smoke, and we can't just punish OoS anymore. I mean, I guess our aerial approach is somewhat stronger since in theory Nair/Bair should be safer to land with...this is still concerning though. We get camped even easier now.

 

[Ti-Phil]

Well, since this is the place where one introduce himself/herself/itself/noself... I'm Ti-Phil, I've been maining Dedede since the start of smash4 (found him strong at first, then enjoyed more and more the antics I could do with him). I do play other characters, but usually I start with the King to gauge the opposition.

You can now return to your normally schedule discussion about the change in the latest update.

PS : Jet Hammer can be useful as a quick hit when dropping from the air, or as an humiliating punisher in case you break your opponent's shield or Jigglypuff fell asleep where it shouldn't have.

PPS: My main language is not english, so I apologize in advance if my grammar is subpar to the rest of you guys.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

I just don't get it. Why do they hurt Dedede like this? At this point, he's received a nerf, all the characters around him have been moving up, and now the meta shifted slightly away from his favor with the new shield stun stuff. Why is this happening? What did we do to deserve this?
https://youtu.be/c9phQcIMIW8

 

[Ekkie]

Sakurai clearly wants to see who's most loyal to the best character in smash so that he can choose us to ascend to the promised land with him.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Not even the global changes benefit him at all.
Jab and Ftilt are like slightly better IF the opponent shields them which they won't.

 

[The Bread Master]

hi i am bread
i like dedede
that's my introduction
alright, i'm out of the loop a bit, anybody know what happened with the update?