MOTHER Character Discussion Thread

[God Robert's Cousin]

Not happening

Also I've went over this before but he's basically the main villain of Mother 3. Porky's only a backdrop villain of 3 and he's just there in Mother 2.

If he's only a back-drop villain, how does Mother 3 even happen? Porky is the sole reason any of Mother 3 takes place. You don't see him most of the game, but come Chapter 8 and you can't go 6 steps without seeing his face plastered somewhere. I'm sure that makes up for it, considering how Porky himself is known for being more of The Unfought type of character in both games for good reason.

It's like saying Ganondorf's OoT incarnation is ineligible since you only see him at certain points and never actually fight him until the end of the game.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

If he's only a back-drop villain, how does Mother 3 even happen? Porky is the sole reason any of Mother 3 takes place. You don't see him most of the game, but come Chapter 8 and you can't go 6 steps without seeing his face plastered somewhere. I'm sure that makes up for it, considering how Porky himself is known for being more of The Unfought type of character in both games for good reason.

It's like saying Ganondorf's OoT incarnation is ineligible since you only see him at certain points and never actually fight him until the end of the game.

Asides from making Masked Man a villain, doesn't he just basically sit down while everyone else gets the needles? and that goes on in the game? Other then that, events are pretty various in the game. I haven't played the game in a while, but hell, the part about the needles doesn't even start for a while into the game, and if I recall correctly, the Drago's are what killed both Masked Man and Hiwana

And his own city, but that's just him (somehow) having a city that somehow goes unheard of until the end of the game.

Ganondorf at least got the three triforce pieces and made the world succumb to evil. That's something there.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Asides from making Masked Man a villain, doesn't he just basically sit down while everyone else gets the needles? and that goes on in the game? Other then that, events are pretty various in the game. I haven't played the game in a while, but hell, the part about the needles doesn't even start for a while into the game, and if I recall correctly, the Drago's are what killed both Masked Man and Hiwana

And his own city, but that's just him (somehow) having a city that somehow goes unheard of until the end of the game.

Ganondorf at least got the three triforce pieces and made the world succumb to evil. That's something there.

Porky recruited the men that eventually formed the Pig Mask Army from the future. He went back in time with his army and ordered them to do cruel experiments on animals because "they're boring". He set in motion the idea of changing the ways peoples' lives are lived for the sake of making the world more like the way he wants it. The Drago that killed Hinawa and Claus was reconstructed, as in cybernetically corrupted by Porky's army, which had made the otherwise peaceful creature attack Lucas' family. In other words, while he's not there in the action, he's still regarded as the absolute cause for it all. I'm not trying to shamelessly flap Godwin's Law out here, but Porky's role is very much like that of Hitler's in being the face of the devastation without having actually done anything dirty with his own two hands. The analogy is fair, considering the Pig Masks' salute and experimentation on living things are both aspects inspired by the actual Nazis themselves.

So to take it to an extreme, Porky is as significant and villainous as Hitler. Once again, sorry to have brought it there.

Ganondorf never did get the three triforce pieces, by the way. That never happens save the final part of Wind Waker where he almost does. OoT Ganondorf literally makes a few appearances on screen and shoots Link one time but otherwise performs exactly the same as Porky in terms of rising to power and performing mostly in the background.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Porky recruited the men that eventually formed the Pig Mask Army from the future. He went back in time with his army and ordered them to do cruel experiments on animals because "they're boring". He set in motion the idea of changing the ways peoples' lives are lived for the sake of making the world more like the way he wants it. The Drago that killed Hinawa and Claus was reconstructed, as in cybernetically corrupted by Porky's army, which had made the otherwise peaceful creature attack Lucas' family. In other words, while he's not there in the action, he's still regarded as the absolute cause for it all. I'm not trying to shamelessly flap Godwin's Law out here, but Porky's role is very much like that of Hitler's in being the face of the devastation without having actually done anything dirty with his own two hands. The analogy is fair, considering the Pig Masks' salute and experimentation on living things are both aspects inspired by the actual Nazis themselves.

So to take it to an extreme, Porky is as significant and villainous as Hitler. Once again, sorry to have brought it there.

Ganondorf never did get the three triforce pieces, by the way. That never happens save the final part of Wind Waker where he almost does. OoT Ganondorf literally makes a few appearances on screen and shoots Link one time but otherwise performs exactly the same as Porky in terms of rising to power and performing mostly in the background.

Ah, that refreshes my memory. It's not really like hitler though (And even then that's a bad comparison my dad's a World War 2 historian as one of his many hobbies so I should know); it's more like making the enemies do stuff. A lot of the enemies (Save for the Pig Mask Army, which is relatively small) were just corrupted, but I can see your point. He really still just does it all for the lulz. He for sure has more significance than in Mother 2, but not by much.

Didn't he get them from Zelda in OoT 3DS? I did actually play that one recently where he basically does.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

OoT 3DS is literally a remake of the original OoT. He gets Zelda, effectively giving him two-thirds of the Triforce, but Link defeats him. Only in the backstory of A Link to the Past is Ganon implied to have the entire Triforce.

And my grandfather was an actual survivor of the holocaust. I know my stuff too, buddy.

Let's try to get this topic back on track. Although he isn't at all going to happen, I wonder how Duster would play out in Smash Bros.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

OoT 3DS is literally a remake of the original OoT. He gets Zelda, effectively giving him two-thirds of the Triforce, but Link defeats him. Only in the backstory of A Link to the Past is Ganon implied to have the entire Triforce.

Ah right. Didn't he get the third one from Link though? That's still close.

And my grandfather was an actual survivor of the holocaust. I know my stuff too, buddy.

Same with my grandfather except he's dead now, sadly.
Regardless, if you want to put a "Hitler" on video game villains, I'd have many more villains to say than him. Shadow Queen being one considering back then 1k years ago she caused a plague,

Spoiler

Serph Sheffield

for basically almost becoming a god and screwing over the modern world, etc. I'd put Porky more on Osama level or some other war-general. I could go on but this isn't "TK Mentions villains topic"

Doesn't make him any less badass though

Let's try to get this topic back on track. Although he isn't at all going to happen, I wonder how Duster would play out in Smash Bros.

Honestly if we were to get any party member from the three games, I'd LOVE Duster the most. It was an amazing addition just to bring his snake, and the snake could certainly do more for a start. Plus his HAIR DUE.

Also, I'm gonna be the first to say that if we get Porky, it better be Pokey. The Brawl boss fight was immensely boring (I've now played it too many damn times) while his other Mech is less gigantic and a lot more workable.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

Anyways, I support most Mother reps, except Ninten, since he has nothing too different to offer with Ness and Lucas being perfectly fine, but that's just my opinion. I like Porky for connect the 2 heroes, and I liked Masked Man for what he has to offer. I also support the Party Members like Flint or Duster for example. I wouldn't be mad for who we get, even if it stays just Ness and Lucas. I just hope neither are cut tbh.

 

[Tepig2000]

I'm pretty sure Ness will return, because he is one of the original 12.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm pretty sure Ness will return, because he is one of the original 12.

I'm pretty sure the EarthBound re-release on the Virtual Console also helps. According to Nintendo, EarthBound did get a lot of downloads and I am sure that will be continuing for a while. (hopefully this could mean that Nintendo will bring Mother 3 to America!)

I'm pretty surprised that Sakurai hasn't announced Ness yet. I know that he was a hidden character in 64 and Brawl, but this reveal could effectively boost some sales for EarthBound...

 

[Hong]

I would like Nintendo to release M1. They already official translated it. ~.~

I mean, I know it is a little dated, but maybe throw it on VC for $5? Personally it's my favourite entry in the series.

 

[DonkaFjord]

I would like Nintendo to release M1. They already official translated it. ~.~

I mean, I know it is a little dated, but maybe throw it on VC for $5? Personally it's my favourite entry in the series.

They probably would run through it real quick and polish some things up but yeah they should. They should aslo just hire tomato and use his mother 3 translation since he works as a localizer for his job anyway (And it was pretty sweet of a translation.)

 

[Silverjay323]

Mother 1+3 definitely needs to come to the west in some form, perhaps in a bundle even. Maybe then the underexposed will stop doubting their representation in Smash...

 

[Speculator]

I would like Nintendo to release M1. They already official translated it. ~.~

I mean, I know it is a little dated, but maybe throw it on VC for $5? Personally it's my favourite entry in the series.

I love Mother 1 too, it has a unique sense of adventure for a Famicom RPG. I think they'd need to create an English digital manual or maybe even a walkthrough if they were to release it on Virtual Console, though. It doesn't give you a lot of direction, and I don't think many people would be able to dive into it so easily.

 

[Rasumii]

As said in another thread, one of my most-wanted newcomers is Porky. I'd be fine with, really any other Mother series Rep, but I want Porky above all-else.

 

[DoubleYooToo]

As someone's who's played all 3 games extensively (And the first is my favourite,) I'd have to say Jeff is the front-runner. Lucas should probably be removed, and have some of his moveset integrated with Ness's. I say this not because I think Lucas is too similar to Ness (The two character have similar physics, their attacks have the same names and that's about it,) but Mother 3 is nowhere near as popular, or in my opinion as good a game as Mother 2, and Mother 1 (and because Ness and Jeff are so similar to Ninten and Loid this kind of represents both games equally, especially if they made an alternate Jeff palette with grey hair and red clothes.)

Jeff's the odd one out in Mother 2. Everyone else in the party is capable of using PSI to differing degrees except for him. And unlike the others, he's amazing with technology and has a lot of battle items that only he can use (similar to Loid, although Jeff can fix broken machines while Loid can't.) Things like Bottle Rockets, Bazookas, Bombs, shield devices, shield breaking devices, everything. Jeff is probably one of the most potentially interesting SSB characters Nintendo have ever made. He's already an assist trophy, which puts him in good stead, as he's already present in the game to that extent.

If they were to arbitrarily add another Mother 3 rep, I'd go for Duster before someone like the Masked Man. He'd just be a weird combination of Meta Knight and Lucas. Duster on the other hand is similar to Jeff in his range of battle items and interesting attack potential, but at the same time completely different. Rather than a technology/heavy artillery leaning, he'd be more like Sheik but with more variety.

 

[FalKoopa]

Oh really, you're removing a protagonist of one game for a side character of another game?

Lucas shares just 5 moves with Ness, his specials and his final smash.

 

[DoubleYooToo]

Oh really, you're removing a protagonist of one game for a side character of another game?

Lucas shares just 5 moves with Ness, his specials and his final smash.

Uh, I'm legitimately wondering if you read my post?

That's basically exactly what I said about Lucas. I specified that the reason I don't think he should return is that Mother 3 isn't as popular or as good as Mother 2.

And Jeff absolutely is not a side character. He's one of the main protagonists. He's the player's character for a section of the game, and he's directly involved in most of the events after he joins Ness.

 

[Deleted member]

That's basically exactly what I said about Lucas. I specified that the reason I don't think he should return is that Mother 3 isn't as popular or as good as Mother 2.

And Jeff absolutely is not a side character. He's one of the main protagonists. He's the player's character for a section of the game, and he's directly involved in most of the events after he joins Ness.

Just because Mother 3 may not be as popular as EarthBound doesn't mean that Lucas deserves to get cut. In fact, Lucas was supposed to be in Melee and replace Ness. In my opinion, Lucas should still be in SSB4 as there is no real reason to cut him; just change his special moves such as changing PK Fire to PK Ground.

As for Jeff. While I do love EarthBound, I don't want to see Jeff be on the roster. He would bring something unique, but does he really deserve it?

 

[DoubleYooToo]

Just because Mother 3 may not be as popular as EarthBound doesn't mean that Lucas deserves to get cut. In fact, Lucas was supposed to be in Melee and replace Ness. In my opinion, Lucas should still be in SSB4 as there is no real reason to cut him; just change his special moves such as changing PK Fire to PK Ground.

As for Jeff. While I do love EarthBound, I don't want to see Jeff be on the roster. He would bring something unique, but does he really deserve it?

Ness and Lucas are almost exactly the same in their respective games. Who gives a **** if Lucas was supposed to be in Melee? He wasn't in it. Balloon Fighter was supposed to be in Melee too, does that mean they should put him in SSB4? And how on earth would changing PK Fire to PK Ground work? If anything, PK Ground would work as a final smash.

People seem to have a problem with over-representation of the series, and I think it makes sense to have two from the popular game that's recently gotten a lot of attention and has been released everywhere than to have one from that one and one from a game most people haven't played and that's never been officially released outside of Japan (where it wasn't even particularly successful regardless.) In addition, I think Ness would be a better character if some of Lucas's move variations, such as his versions of PK Thunder and PSI Magnet were integrated into his moveset.

In addition, having two so similar looking characters with similar abilities presents a similar problem to the one caused by the Fire Emblem representation: it casts a false light of the series to people who aren't familiar with it, making them think that every character in the Mother games is a psychic boy in a striped shirt and shorts (or in the case of Fire Emblem, a blue-haired prince who fights with a sword.) If they added Jeff instead, it'd correctly convey to people unfamiliar with the series how diverse its cast of characters is, and maybe make them want to play it more. And yes, bringing something unique is important, it adds to making the game more interesting and diverse.

And I feel I should add, cutting a character from a less popular game in the series in favour of a more popular one has been done several times, with characters like Toon Link and Ike. Most people seem to be fine with it.

 

[Speculator]

That's basically exactly what I said about Lucas. I specified that the reason I don't think he should return is that Mother 3 isn't as popular or as good as Mother 2.

Basically, that doesn't matter at all. They can't just go removing characters because their games aren't popular - and Mother 3 isn't even unpopular, it's just "not as popular as Earthbound". Which, when you think about it, is pretty natural considering EB has been released in three regions and M3 in only one.

Removing Lucas and replacing him with another Earthbound character takes away all playable Mother 3 representation, which is the very reason we have two Mother character slots in the first place.

 

[DoubleYooToo]

Basically, that doesn't matter at all. They can't just go removing characters because their games aren't popular - and Mother 3 isn't even unpopular, it's just "not as popular as Earthbound". Which, when you think about it, is pretty natural considering EB has been released in three regions and M3 in only one.

Removing Lucas and replacing him with another Earthbound character takes away all playable Mother 3 representation, which is the very reason we have two Mother character slots in the first place.

That's a fact is it? Can you give me some kind of quote saying that's the reason a second Mother rep was added? Because there were now 3 games in the series instead of two? Brawl was a bigger game than Melee. They added more characters because they could. Mother 3 just happened to be released in the time between them. As has been said, had Mother 3 come out before Melee, Lucas would have replaced Ness, not suddenly qualified the series for a second rep.

And no, Mother 3's lack of popularity has nothing to do with its limited release. Japan doesn't like it. Japan loves Mother 2, and Mother 3 was less successful and not as well regarded by them, because it's just not as good and didn't stand up to the first two games' legacy. And characters have been removed because their games aren't popular. Roy's starring game was poorly received, which is likely part of the reason he was removed in favour of Ike. Mewtwo was removed probably because Lucario was more recent and more popular at the time. Dr. Mario's removal likely had to do with his lack of relevance.

It is a factor in deciding which characters make the cut, don't act like it isn't.

 

[Speculator]

That's a fact is it? Can you give me some kind of quote saying that's the reason a second Mother rep was added? Because there were now 3 games in the series instead of two? Brawl was a bigger game than Melee. They added more characters because they could. Mother 3 just happened to be released in the time between them. As has been said, had Mother 3 come out before Melee, Lucas would have replaced Ness, not suddenly qualified the series for a second rep.

If Mother was a game series with one protagonist across three games, it would not warrant more than one character slot. It would be in the same boat as series like Kid Icarus. That one protagonist would be able to represent the entire franchise by himself.

Obviously, that isn't the case, and Ness alone is insufficient. Brawl was a bigger game than Melee, and that gave them the opportunity to better represent what would ordinarily be a one-slot series by including the main protagonist from the new game. To now remove that protagonist and to replace him with a secondary character from a game that already has its main character is not only redundant but would aggravate everybody who likes Lucas and Mother 3.

And no, Mother 3's lack of popularity has nothing to do with its limited release. Japan doesn't like it. Japan loves Mother 2, and Mother 3 was less successful and not as well regarded by them, because it's just not as good and didn't stand up to the first two games' legacy.

This is pure conjecture and personal viewpoint. The game was very well-recieved and plenty of people consider it the best in the series.

Even if you want to insist "japan doesn't like it", which isn't true, then that still has everything to do with its limited release. It's only had an opportunity to be judged by Japan, unlike Earthbound.

And characters have been removed because their games aren't popular. Roy's starring game was poorly received, which is likely part of the reason he was removed in favour of Ike. Mewtwo was removed probably because Lucario was more recent and more popular at the time. Dr. Mario's removal likely had to do with his lack of relevance.

Not one of those characters was removed because their game wasn't popular. Pokemon is one of the most popular video game series in the world, so I can't even imagine why you thought bringing up Mewtwo would support your argument. Dr. Mario and Roy were removed because they were clones, and therefore expendable. Development time didn't allow for every Melee character to return, so they cut off the excess first.

 

[DoubleYooToo]

Except people outside Japan have played Mother 3. Outside Japan, the whole series is obscure. Earthbound sold poorly in America, and most of the people outside of that low-purchase base are die hards, like me and probably you too. It's more well received now for reasons other than its initial release. There might be a select few people who are disappointed with a character's removal, but those people are just that; a select few. Why please a minority over a majority? It's a nonsensical approach.

On Mewtwo, I guess I did phrase that poorly. I meant less popular, not unpopular. Pichu is a more appropriate Pokemon example, being removed in favour of the more iconic trainer with his 3 iconic starters. If all clones were being removed, how do you explain Falco being kept despite being almost identical to Fox? Probably because he's a fan favourite. Same applies to Ganondorf.

I feel I should add, there really isn't a huge amount of sense to Sakurais character selection. There is no steadfast rule set of who gets in and who doesn't. It's all just vague outlines, and what I'm saying is that one of the biggest is a character's reception, and by extension the reception of their game of origin.

 

[Tepig2000]

You want Sakurai to cut Lucas just because he's a clone? Why not just make him original? And Mewtwo has never been less popular than Lucario, he's probably the second or third most popular Pokémon behind Charizard and Pikachu. It's removal caused fan disaproval because there was no reason to cut it.

 

[SureNsync]

If they were to arbitrarily add another Mother 3 rep, I'd go for Duster before someone like the Masked Man. He'd just be a weird combination of Meta Knight and Lucas. Duster on the other hand is similar to Jeff in his range of battle items and interesting attack potential, but at the same time completely different. Rather than a technology/heavy artillery leaning, he'd be more like Sheik but with more variety.[/quote]

Masked Man may be similar to Meta Knight and Lucas but he is still a recommendable character because of his antagonist status. The next Mother newcomer needs to be a villain.

 

[Tepig2000]

If they were to arbitrarily add another Mother 3 rep, I'd go for Duster before someone like the Masked Man. He'd just be a weird combination of Meta Knight and Lucas. Duster on the other hand is similar to Jeff in his range of battle items and interesting attack potential, but at the same time completely different. Rather than a technology/heavy artillery leaning, he'd be more like Sheik but with more variety.

Masked Man may be similar to Meta Knight and Lucas but he is still a recommendable character because of his antagonist status. The next Mother newcomer needs to be a villain.[/quote]

There's no clear choice of who the next Mother character will be. I'd say the most probable are Ninten, Porky, Gyigas or Masked Man / Claus. However, the most probable thing to happen is that we have just Ness and Lucas in SSB4 and no other Mother character. I'd be fine with this.

 

[SureNsync]

Masked Man may be similar to Meta Knight and Lucas but he is still a recommendable character because of his antagonist status. The next Mother newcomer needs to be a villain.

There's no clear choice of who the next Mother character will be. I'd say the most probable are Ninten, Porky, Gyigas or Masked Man / Claus. However, the most probable thing to happen is that we have just Ness and Lucas in SSB4 and no other Mother character. I'd be fine with this.[/quote]

I know. There most likely won't be a new Mother character. I was just stating my point of the Mother series need of an antagonist.

Porky is easier to work with than Giegue because he seem to have Doc Ock influence and his move set can also have a similar attack style to Ivysaur's Vine Wipe. Giegue is easier to work with than Gyigas due to Mewtwo having a similar appearance. Masked Man makes more sense then the rest of the Mother antagonists because he is extremely easy to work with and Mother 3 is the most recent Mother title.

 

[Tepig2000]

There's no clear choice of who the next Mother character will be. I'd say the most probable are Ninten, Porky, Gyigas or Masked Man / Claus. However, the most probable thing to happen is that we have just Ness and Lucas in SSB4 and no other Mother character. I'd be fine with this.

I know. There most likely won't be a new Mother character. I was just stating my point of the Mother series need of an antagonist.

Porky is easier to work with than Giegue because he seem to have Doc Ock influence and his move set can also have a similar attack style to Ivysaur's Vine Wipe. Giegue is easier to work with than Gyigas due to Mewtwo having a similar appearance. Masked Man makes more sense then the rest of the Mother antagonists because he is extremely easy to work with and Mother 3 is the most recent Mother title.[/quote]

I agree with you. Masked Man / Claus seems to be the best choice because he's the easiest to make a moveset for, but to an extent he's the least important of the three.

 

[Zigzagar]

I don't see new additions for the mother series unless they reveal mother 4 which I doubt will happen. I'll leave it as:
Ness (Part of the original 12)
Lucas (Latest Protagonist, I hope he returns)

 

[Deleted member]

There might be a select few people who are disappointed with a character's removal, but those people are just that; a select few. Why please a minority over a majority? It's a nonsensical approach.

Because cuts suck. Even if a minority of people like a character, it would still be upsetting for those people who see their favorite character get cut.

And no, Mother 3's lack of popularity has nothing to do with its limited release. Japan doesn't like it. Japan loves Mother 2, and Mother 3 was less successful and not as well regarded by them, because it's just not as good and didn't stand up to the first two games' legacy. And characters have been removed because their games aren't popular. Roy's starring game was poorly received, which is likely part of the reason he was removed in favour of Ike. Mewtwo was removed probably because Lucario was more recent and more popular at the time. Dr. Mario's removal likely had to do with his lack of relevance.

There is still a large handful of people who love Mother 3. In fact, there is an entire group of people dedicated to make a fan translation for everyone to play and there has been so many petitions to get the game to finally come to the US and other areas. Just because Mother 3 was less successful doesn't mean it's not very loved by gamers. Roy's game may have been poorly received, but that doesn't matter since Roy was planned to be playable in Brawl and was cut due to time constraints. Mewtwo was cut for the same reasons; there is no reason to cut a character like Mewtwo who has an original moveset. Dr. Mario got cut for being a clone, but he's somewhere in the game's data.

Personally, I thinking having Jeff over Lucas would be a worse representation of the series. With Ness and Jeff, you only get characters from EarthBound. With Ness and Lucas, you get two different characters from two different games. Even for my hate for Toon Link being on the roster, the main defense is that he represents an era of Zelda while regular Link represents another era. Ness and Lucas fill in the gaps between EarthBound and Mother 3 just as the Links do to represent the Zelda series.

 

[DoubleYooToo]

Because cuts suck. Even if a minority of people like a character, it would still be upsetting for those people who see their favorite character get cut.


There is still a large handful of people who love Mother 3. In fact, there is an entire group of people dedicated to make a fan translation for everyone to play and there has been so many petitions to get the game to finally come to the US and other areas. Just because Mother 3 was less successful doesn't mean it's not very loved by gamers. Roy's game may have been poorly received, but that doesn't matter since Roy was planned to be playable in Brawl and was cut due to time constraints. Mewtwo was cut for the same reasons; there is no reason to cut a character like Mewtwo who has an original moveset. Dr. Mario got cut for being a clone, but he's somewhere in the game's data.

Personally, I thinking having Jeff over Lucas would be a worse representation of the series. With Ness and Jeff, you only get characters from EarthBound. With Ness and Lucas, you get two different characters from two different games. Even for my hate for Toon Link being on the roster, the main defense is that he represents an era of Zelda while regular Link represents another era. Ness and Lucas fill in the gaps between EarthBound and Mother 3 just as the Links do to represent the Zelda series.

The fan translation happened because people wanted to play Mother 3, since they were fans of Mother 2. Many of those petitions took place before the fan translation had even come out and were signed based on purely the fact that it was a Mother game - a testament to the second game's legacy.

What I'm saying is that if two characters for the Mother series is the limit, a better representation of the kind of diversity you would see in the series is to include Jeff instead of another striped-shirt shorts wearing psychic boy - for god's sake, cut off the tops of their heads and they're pallette swaps of each other.

 

[Speculator]

Except people outside Japan have played Mother 3. Outside Japan, the whole series is obscure. Earthbound sold poorly in America, and most of the people outside of that low-purchase base are die hards, like me and probably you too. It's more well received now for reasons other than its initial release. There might be a select few people who are disappointed with a character's removal, but those people are just that; a select few. Why please a minority over a majority? It's a nonsensical approach.

It's only a "select few" who think Lucas should be removed in the first place. I have no idea why you think people would appreciate another Earthbound character over the Mother 3 main protagonist. Especially since you're now talking about how people outside of Japan have played Mother 3 and that Earthbound didn't sell that well. This comment doesn't actually seem directly relevant to anything we were talking about.

You're also forgetting that Lucas is now not only a significant character because of Mother 3 - he's now also a significant character thanks to him inclusion in Brawl. Perhaps moreso. Lucas's removal wouldn't just disappoint people that bought or played Mother 3, it would disappoint everyone who grew to love him through his appearance in SSB.

On Mewtwo, I guess I did phrase that poorly. I meant less popular, not unpopular. Pichu is a more appropriate Pokemon example, being removed in favour of the more iconic trainer with his 3 iconic starters. If all clones were being removed, how do you explain Falco being kept despite being almost identical to Fox? Probably because he's a fan favourite. Same applies to Ganondorf

I didn't say all clones were removed. I said they cut the excess, and bottom priority was the clone characters. Falco and Ganondorf are hugely significant to their series as the secondary protagonist and primary antagonist, respectively. That's why they weren't cut. Characters like Pichu and Roy and Dr. Mario are not hugely significant to their franchise, and therefore nothing tremendous is lost by their disinclusion.

I feel I should add, there really isn't a huge amount of sense to Sakurais character selection. There is no steadfast rule set of who gets in and who doesn't. It's all just vague outlines, and what I'm saying is that one of the biggest is a character's reception, and by extension the reception of their game of origin.

I don't agree. If you look at the Brawl roster, you'll see certain criteria that all characters fit. For example, all characters are either primary protagonists/macsots (Mario, Link, Ness, Lucas, Ice Climbers) or support/antagonist characters with multiple game appearances (Zelda, Ganondorf, Falco, Wolf). A character like Jeff wouldn't fit this, being a secondary protagonist in only one game. This is why Lucas, as the main playable hero of Mother 3, takes priority over him.

Before you point out Sheik, I should say that her significance is thanks to her teaming with Zelda. As a stand-alone character, I doubt she'd be able to get in.

What I'm saying is that if two characters for the Mother series is the limit, a better representation of the kind of diversity you would see in the series is to include Jeff instead of another striped-shirt shorts wearing psychic boy - for god's sake, cut off the tops of their heads and they're pallette swaps of each other.

I think we lose a lot of the diversity by limiting the roster choices to characters from just one game in the series. I agree that Lucas needs to be further diverged from Ness in the form of new specials or something, but I don't think replacing him is the answer.

 

[SuperBrawler]

Personally I prefer Ninten.

 

[DoubleYooToo]

It's only a "select few" who think Lucas should be removed in the first place. I have no idea why you think people would appreciate another Earthbound character over the Mother 3 main protagonist. Especially since you're now talking about how people outside of Japan have played Mother 3 and that Earthbound didn't sell that well. This comment doesn't actually seem directly relevant to anything we were talking about.

If you have no idea why I think that, maybe refer to one of my posts on the subject?

You're also forgetting that Lucas is now not only a significant character because of Mother 3 - he's now also a significant character thanks to him inclusion in Brawl. Perhaps moreso. Lucas's removal wouldn't just disappoint people that bought or played Mother 3, it would disappoint everyone who grew to love him through his appearance in SSB.

Like everyone was super disappointed when Pichu and Dr. Mario were removed? Lucas isn't even a popular character among the smash community.

I didn't say all clones were removed. I said they cut the excess, and bottom priority was the clone characters. Falco and Ganondorf are hugely significant to their series as the secondary protagonist and primary antagonist, respectively. That's why they weren't cut. Characters like Pichu and Roy and Dr. Mario are not hugely significant to their franchise, and therefore nothing tremendous is lost by their disinclusion.

You do realise you've just said exactly what I was saying?

I don't agree. If you look at the Brawl roster, you'll see certain criteria that all characters fit. For example, all characters are either primary protagonists/macsots (Mario, Link, Ness, Lucas, Ice Climbers) or support/antagonist characters with multiple game appearances (Zelda, Ganondorf, Falco, Wolf). A character like Jeff wouldn't fit this, being a secondary protagonist in only one game. This is why Lucas, as the main playable hero of Mother 3, takes priority over him.

Not all games are equal, some are more significant than others. That's why the main Mario series has 4 characters and the Yoshi and Wario branches each have one. Mother 2 is a much more significant, more popular game than Mother 3.

Before you point out Sheik, I should say that her significance is thanks to her teaming with Zelda. As a stand-alone character, I doubt she'd be able to get in.

No argument there.

I think we lose a lot of the diversity by limiting the roster choices to characters from just one game in the series. I agree that Lucas needs to be further diverged from Ness in the form of new specials or something, but I don't think replacing him is the answer.

You want to increase diversity by including two characters who fill the same role from their respective games, both silent protagonists, look almost the same and have almost the same stats and moves? That's moronic. The reason I suggested to include Jeff is because of the diversity he brings instead of having two characters that are nearly the same and give an inaccurate reflection of the series.

 

[Speculator]

If you have no idea why I think that, maybe refer to one of my posts on the subject?

Because basically what I'm seeing is that you prefered Earthbound to Mother 3, therefore Mother 3 should have 0 reps and Earthbound should have 2. You haven't explained why people would want that, you've just talked about how Earthbound is a more popular game. We're not reaching a wider variety of people by dropping Lucas for Jeff - everybody who played and liked Earthbound already has Ness. People who played and liked Mother 3 (or liked the character in Brawl) have Lucas.

Like everyone was super disappointed when Pichu and Dr. Mario were removed? Lucas isn't even a popular character among the smash community.

Some people were disappointed when Pichu and Dr. Mario were removed. But nearly every single one of their characteristics was preserved in Mario and Pikachu, so those people at least had an option to play how they used to in Melee. If Lucas was removed, players wouldn't have that option.

Sakurai doesn't take your perceptions of the Smash community into account. Sakurai doesn't tailor the game to a specific online group at all. He's recently been talking about how he considers himself a support of the "silent majority", which basically means he's aware that not everybody who plays SSB talks about it online and posts about it on message boards. It's difficult to gauge a "popular" opinion when it's not even a large percentage of the playerbase that you're gauging.

You do realise you've just said exactly what I was saying?

No, you suggested Falco and Ganondorf were kept because they were fan-favorites. Ganondorf would be in even if everybody hated him. He's the main antagonist of Nintendo's third-largest series. It's the importance of his role in LoZ that lead him to keep his spot where other clones were removed, not the reception to his character.

Not all games are equal, some are more significant than others. That's why the main Mario series has 4 characters and the Yoshi and Wario branches each have one. Mother 2 is a much more significant, more popular game than Mother 3.

That comparison doesn't really make sense because you're comparing one large series and two smaller series against a game and its sequel, both of which are within the same series anyway. Mario has four characters because it's Nintendo's mascot franchise and has had hundreds of games. Yoshi and Wario have one character each because they are much smaller franchises and are adequately represented by their main protagonists. Mother has two characters because it too is a very small franchise, but is not adequately represented by a character from just one of its games.

You want to increase diversity by including two characters who fill the same role from their respective games, both silent protagonists, look almost the same and have almost the same stats and moves? That's moronic. The reason I suggested to include Jeff is because of the diversity he brings instead of having two characters that are nearly the same and give an inaccurate reflection of the series.

I have difficult believing you're an Earthbound fan if you think Ness and Lucas are the same. "They both have stripey shirts" is roughly on the same level as suggesting Marth and Ike are the same "because they have blue hair". Don't get me wrong, I think diversity is a good thing, but I also think appropriate and proportionate character representation is a good thing. Earthbound is a great game, but it is not so special that it deserves a second character.

 

[DoubleYooToo]

I have difficult believing you're an Earthbound fan if you think Ness and Lucas are the same. "They both have stripey shirts" is roughly on the same level as suggesting Marth and Ike are the same "because they have blue hair". Don't get me wrong, I think diversity is a good thing, but I also think appropriate and proportionate character representation is a good thing. Earthbound is a great game, but it is not so special that it deserves a second character.

Yes. Because that is what I said.

What I was saying is that to an outsider, they appear to be extremely similar. And that's because they are. And that casts an inaccurate image of the Mother series and the kind of diversity that would be seen in it. Do I need to say it five, maybe six more times before you finally grasp this concept?

 

[Rasumii]

As a Pichu player, I was very upset when he was cut. Although I was pretty sure he wouldn't make it the next time around, I played him frequently and was upset he wasn't playable. He played differently in Pikachu in the fact he took damage when he got hit, meaning your strategy had to be different than normal, especially if you played with no items on. That's what I loved about Pichu, and preferred him over Pikachu.

On topic here, I've played all three games as well. Lucas definitely deserves a spot on the roster, there's no question. Removing him would upset the fans of Lucas, both fans of him in Smash and Mother 3. As a Ness player, playing as Lucas is much different. Especially since I used to main Lucas too, but I had gravitated to Ness after a while. I personally, don't want Lucas to return, since I'm just a Porky fanboy and really want Porky to join the Series. I thought he was such a creatively written villain, one of the best even today, and his moveset would be extremely unique. Claus / Masked Man would be my next choice in a character. He would be yet another great addition to this series I believe. If Mother does get a 3rd Rep, as someone said before me, it definitely needs to get a villain for once.

On the topic of Jeff and if Mother is only getting 2 Reps, while he would have a creative moveset, he would not be one of my first choices for a Mother Rep. We don't need 2 characters from Earthbound, one of the three games in the series. Ninten would be my next choice (After Porky and Clause / Masked Man). To have a Rep from the first game of the series would be great, especially one of my favorite series. This is all just merely opinion of course, but I wanted to say something to get in on the discussion.

 

[I_hate_usernames]

I'd honestly prefer giygas over porky. Nothing against Porky, I just hate every dammed ounce of his guts!

I also hope Ness and Lucas get a little bit of diversity between them, I understand in Brawl Ness was supposed to be cut, but made it in as a reskin. I hope they reconsider him and give them both different playstyles.

 

[Speculator]

Yes. Because that is what I said.

What I was saying is that to an outsider, they appear to be extremely similar. And that's because they are. And that casts an inaccurate image of the Mother series and the kind of diversity that would be seen in it. Do I need to say it five, maybe six more times before you finally grasp this concept?

It's funny you should condescend me, when you cherry-picked my post to such a degree that you only managed to respond to one point. Are you conceding to all the others?

Any outsiders even remotely invested in Ness or Lucas as Super Smash Bros characters are more than aware of their differences. It doesn't take a lot of play time to realize that. Are you saying that people unfamiliar with Mother now assume all its characters are PSI users in stripey shirts? That's nonsense. Anyone even slightly curious about Earthbound or Mother 3 need not go to the ends of the earth to find out who the characters are.

You know what a genuinely innacurate depiction of the diversity of the series would be? The suggestion that Mother = "Earthbound" and nothing more. There is no merit for including another Earthbound character over the main protagonist of Mother 3.

 

[grizby2]

I'd honestly prefer giygas over porky. Nothing against Porky, I just hate every dammed ounce of his guts!

I also hope Ness and Lucas get a little bit of diversity between them, I understand in Brawl Ness was supposed to be cut, but made it in as a reskin. I hope they reconsider him and give them both different playstyles.

giygas as a playable character? I don't think You can grasp the true form of Giygas' attacks~

but for reals, he should be a boss, unless you're thinking of Giegue

Spoiler

which inspired the design of yours truly

Spoiler

but boss or no boss, I prefer giygas as well.

Yes. Because that is what I said.

What I was saying is that to an outsider, they appear to be extremely similar. And that's because they are. And that casts an inaccurate image of the Mother series and the kind of diversity that would be seen in it. Do I need to say it five, maybe six more times before you finally grasp this concept?

~trivia~
did you know that luigi is less "luigified" than lucas?