Most practical secondary to Falco?

[Spoice]

I'm stuck between choosing Marth or Sheik, I figured that out of all the top 8, these two are probably the top contenders to cover Falco's weaknesses, but which one would be more practical for me? I'm someone who likes to play patient, and stick on the offence as soon as i can, trying to keep control of the game for as long as I can.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

Falco secretly doesn't really have hard weaknesses in his matchups. So a secondary is moreso for matches you don't like rather than super unfavorable ones. Which matchups don't you like?

 

[Klemes]

I actually think fox completes falco best. I'm maining both spacies now personnaly.
Fox is the best at falcos weaker MUs and probably better with . And he's very fun to play too, who doesn't like to go fast ? The biggest drawback is that switching between these two is very disorienting every time, mainly beccause of fox's shorter jumpsquat.

If you wanna choose between Marth and Shiek, I guess go with Marth for the MU coverage and usefulness of the things you'll learn (movement stage control spacing etc.). + he's infinitely more stylish than shiek.

Shiek on the other hand is WAY easier to git gud with (something you might want to consider, especially for a secondary). From my experience she's the easiest character to learn and to play, but also no fun at all.

Finally you can choose the option not to train a secondary. Sticking whit the bird sure gets horribly frustrating at times (like when my best friend picked up jiggly for the first time ever and 3-stocked me 10 times in a row. ugh.) but there's nothing you can't overcome with him, and ultimately it's very rewarding.

 

[Scruffy_Scoundrel]

My two cents, if you main Falco you don't need a secondary. Falco is among the best characters in the game (better than fox imo) due to his excellent match up spread and versatility, the more time you put into falco the less you'll feel the need for a secondary. As a patient player Falco is perfect for you I wish you luck in your journey to become stronger

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

From experience I would say picking up a legit tournament secondary is more trouble than it's worth. It'll take less time to just study the match up and learn it as falco than learn an entirely new character. Plus, learning one matchup as falco will kind of just improve your falco decision making in general.

 

[FE_Hector]

Based on your description of how you prefer to play, it looks like you prefer kind of an patient aggression. In my opinion, Marth is the best choice for this. His mere presence threatens multiple moves that all pose a lot of danger to almost everybody, his edgeguard and combo games are really good, and he covers floaties quite well. While I'm personally of the opinion that Falco shouldn't struggle as much against floaties as he does, I'm definitely of the opinion that Marth ****s up floaties quite well.

Overall though, I'd say you should go for whoever you think is the most fun to play that covers your personal worst matchups the well.

 

[Strats]

Personally I like Marth as a secondary to Falco because of his quick attacks and relative speed, as well as a long wavedash. I don't think Fox is a great choice, I think it's confusing to switch between their similar moves, but very different play styles.

 

[Archelon]

I actually think fox completes falco best. I'm maining both spacies now personnaly.
Fox is the best at falcos weaker MUs and probably better with . And he's very fun to play too, who doesn't like to go fast ? The biggest drawback is that switching between these two is very disorienting every time, mainly beccause of fox's shorter jumpsquat.

If you wanna choose between Marth and Shiek, I guess go with Marth for the MU coverage and usefulness of the things you'll learn (movement stage control spacing etc.). + he's infinitely more stylish than shiek.

Shiek on the other hand is WAY easier to git gud with (something you might want to consider, especially for a secondary). From my experience she's the easiest character to learn and to play, but also no fun at all.

Finally you can choose the option not to train a secondary. Sticking whit the bird sure gets horribly frustrating at times (like when my best friend picked up jiggly for the first time ever and 3-stocked me 10 times in a row. ugh.) but there's nothing you can't overcome with him, and ultimately it's very rewarding.

I also think sheik isn't a bad option because she does best against Marth, which is arguably falco's worst MU, although the better MUs vs Puff and Peach very well could outwigh it.

 

[Spoice]

Falco secretly doesn't really have hard weaknesses in his matchups. So a secondary is moreso for matches you don't like rather than super unfavorable ones. Which matchups don't you like?

It's mostly Puff and Marth i find annoying.

 

[FE_Hector]

It's mostly Puff and Marth i find annoying.

Then I personally think that Marth is your best option. If you can learn how the ditto is to be played and have the patience to play the Marth-Puff MU, you'll do just fine. I think that Sheik-Puff is extremely volatile because CC Rest is an extremely useful tool of Puff's. I haven't put too much thought into Sheik-Puff, though.

 

[Spoice]

Then I personally think that Marth is your best option. If you can learn how the ditto is to be played and have the patience to play the Marth-Puff MU, you'll do just fine. I think that Sheik-Puff is extremely volatile because CC Rest is an extremely useful tool of Puff's. I haven't put too much thought into Sheik-Puff, though.

Yeah I am leaning towards Marth more than Sheik, it just seems to be most logical option. The ditto I feel like I can handle, and I imagine the puff MU will be similar to Peach, just a ton of dash dancing an side b to up tilt

 

[Jmoney]

Depends what kind of falco player u are. If you like to camp lasers a lot, play super "defensive", id recommend marth. If you're a super aggressive, pressure & tech skill heavy falco, i'd play fox. Or C.falc if you're cool.

 

[LobotomyPop :^)]

Depends what kind of falco player u are. If you like to camp lasers a lot, play super "defensive", id recommend marth. If you're a super aggressive, pressure & tech skill heavy falco, i'd play fox. Or C.falc if you're cool.

I agree, putting Shiek with Marth and that's my recommendation.

 

[koKoRoro]

I would go Marth. It's just much more rewarding than Sheik, and Marth covers more bad matchups for Falco than Sheik iirc

 

[Spoo]

I would suggest using only Falco because none of his matchups are very bad but if you are going to pick up a secondary I would suggest Marth or Fox.

 

[0gweSMASH]

been considering a secondary myself, but after reading this thread I'll stick to Falco and Falco alone.

Fly high

 

[0gweSMASH]

this talk would help anyone on this thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxLffR5RaBg

or this whole forum subsection, really

 

[Green_Bluebird]

As others have pointed out, Falco doesn't have any losing matchups. Personally, I learned Sheik for Sheik dittos because I hated getting tech-chased. After getting good with her, I've started using her against Marth and some floaters like Peach and Puff that are harder for Falco to combo. She has a bit of a higher skill floor than Marth (you can't just tilt the c-stick sideways and hope for the best), but takes a lot less effort to master. You learn to play her and you're good to go, it doesn't take a ridiculous amount of practice and matchup knowledge like Marth can. I went with Sheik just for this reason, it leaves you more time to focus on improving your Falco. A Marth or Fox secondary, while as good or better, take more upkeep. You have to dedicate more training time to them that you could be spending on Falco.

All that said, a good Falco really doesn't need a secondary. It just comes down to figuring out what matchups you don't like and either learning to deal with them or picking a character that lets you deal with them more easily.

 

[0gweSMASH]

As others have pointed out, Falco doesn't have any losing matchups. Personally, I learned Sheik for Sheik dittos because I hated getting tech-chased. After getting good with her, I've started using her against Marth and some floaters like Peach and Puff that are harder for Falco to combo. She has a bit of a higher skill floor than Marth (you can't just tilt the c-stick sideways and hope for the best), but takes a lot less effort to master. You learn to play her and you're good to go, it doesn't take a ridiculous amount of practice and matchup knowledge like Marth can. I went with Sheik just for this reason, it leaves you more time to focus on improving your Falco. A Marth or Fox secondary, while as good or better, take more upkeep. You have to dedicate more training time to them that you could be spending on Falco.

All that said, a good Falco really doesn't need a secondary. It just comes down to figuring out what matchups you don't like and either learning to deal with them or picking a character that lets you deal with them more easily.

Superbly put, I'd say this is the answer to the thread's question "Most practical secondary:" Shiek. Your points about being able to learn and get good with Shiek while still being able to put most of your efforts into Falco are on point. I suppose until one reaches a certain point with their Falco they can pick up Shiek to clean up with until then.

 

[Klemes]

Hum... I don't think shiek is any better vs floaties actually. And I also think Falco does beat Marth, even if it could be way easier for shiek.
So yeah, the best reason to pick up shiek is she's the easiest top tier to get good with.

Edit : It's so funny you trained shiek for shiek dittos. It's like every shiek's least favorite match-up !

 

[FE_Hector]

PPMD actually says Sheik loses to Marth, just wanna throw that out there.

 

[Green_Bluebird]

When you're PPMD, everything loses to your Marth. But I think the matchup is heavily in Sheik's favor, PP's just really good at it.

As for the floaties, I think it's more of a playstyle thing for me. I have a really ground-heavy Falco, where I just approach with WD shines and Utilts, so I don't do so well against characters that can just DI up and away. I love the Sheik matchup against floaties because of the guaranteed Dthrow followups into kill moves. They DI out, you Fair. They DI in, you Uair. With Falco I feel like I always have to get a read to kill a floaty.

And the Sheik ditto, well, I figure if I'm gonna get either tech-chased or chaingrabbed, I might as well go with the matchup where I can chaingrab too.

 

[FE_Hector]

The core of the Marth-Sheik MU is actually that Marth just gets punished harder for making mistakes. If both players are performing well, though, I believe that Marth solidly wins the MU. What I generally say is that Marth loses at low levels because of the number of mistakes he makes. As my answer to this thread, though, don't have a secondary at all. It's far from necessary.

 

[C-SAF]

.... but takes a lot less effort to master. You learn to play her and you're good to go, it doesn't take a ridiculous amount of practice and matchup knowledge....

This doesn't sound like someone who has "mastered" anything. If ur beating people like this with shiek its because ur preying on their weakness and not building ur own strength.

 

[FE_Hector]

Going along with what C-SAF said, it's generally agreed that Sheik has a lower learning curve at lower levels than a lot of other characters do, so while you may be doing better with Sheik at first, there hits a point where achieving growth with her is actually far more difficult than it is for characters with higher learning curves at the start. It's really just a matter of where the wall starts beginning to be obvious.

 

[Bravo_10]

If you want to really annoy your friends, you could learn Link for Marth and Puff. This is only a semi-serious post, but Link does very well against both of those characters. Similar to the way Axe beats Marth players, it's a matchup that Link loses only slightly, but you will absolutely have more practice at this matchup than your opponents will. Puff can also be really enjoyable because you can snipe ledge stalls with bombs easily, so she'll have to camp honestly if she wants to camp you out at all.

But also Falco's a fantastic character, so I agree pretty wholeheartedly with what Stabbed said. Just learning the matchups with Falco is probably easier and me rewarding than learning a secondary.

edit: Link is also very good against Peach and actually goes even with the Ice Climbers.

 

[Spoice]

If you want to really annoy your friends, you could learn Link for Marth and Puff. This is only a semi-serious post, but Link does very well against both of those characters. Similar to the way Axe beats Marth players, it's a matchup that Link loses only slightly, but you will absolutely have more practice at this matchup than your opponents will. Puff can also be really enjoyable because you can snipe ledge stalls with bombs easily, so she'll have to camp honestly if she wants to camp you out at all.

But also Falco's a fantastic character, so I agree pretty wholeheartedly with what Stabbed said. Just learning the matchups with Falco is probably easier and me rewarding than learning a secondary.

edit: Link is also very good against Peach and actually goes even with the Ice Climbers.

why not young link

 

[Bravo_10]

why not young link

Sure, you can try him if you want. He does better against Puff than Link because of his ridiculously fast movement. But you will struggle against Marth if you want to pick up Young Link for that matchup. Link does considerably better due to his great punishes off of grab. His range is also better, and he has an easier time of using his projectiles to create offensive openings. He even has a more reliable edge guard: full jump fast fall nair offstage stuffs almost all of Marth's attempts to recover low. All you have to do is time it properly.

Peach and Ice Climbers are similarly easy matchups for both Links IMO. Young Link is probably easier to learn because his gameplay is more straightforward. You run away, you throw things. Doesn't matter the stage, just keep camping until you can convert a bomb into a KO move. Link has to apply his own pressure on smaller stages in those matchups, but you'll find that he has easier combos on pretty much all floaties and an easier time finding KO setups. Plus Link's nair lasts until the end of time.

 

[C-SAF]

Sure, you can try him if you want. He does better against Puff than Link because of his ridiculously fast movement. But you will struggle against Marth if you want to pick up Young Link for that matchup. Link does considerably better due to his great punishes off of grab. His range is also better, and he has an easier time of using his projectiles to create offensive openings. He even has a more reliable edge guard: full jump fast fall nair offstage stuffs almost all of Marth's attempts to recover low. All you have to do is time it properly.

Peach and Ice Climbers are similarly easy matchups for both Links IMO. Young Link is probably easier to learn because his gameplay is more straightforward. You run away, you throw things. Doesn't matter the stage, just keep camping until you can convert a bomb into a KO move. Link has to apply his own pressure on smaller stages in those matchups, but you'll find that he has easier combos on pretty much all floaties and an easier time finding KO setups. Plus Link's nair lasts until the end of time.

According to SAUS, IC's are borderline unwinnable for link. Everything link does can be cc grabbed, and his projectiles do nothing to separate the climbers.The second best player in Ottawa is an IC main and regularly beats him. SAUS usually goes falcon now for the matchup.

 

[Bravo_10]

According to SAUS, IC's are borderline unwinnable for link. Everything link does can be cc grabbed, and his projectiles do nothing to separate the climbers.The second best player in Ottawa is an IC main and regularly beats him. SAUS usually goes falcon now for the matchup.

Then SAUS is bad at the matchup. I don't want to derail this thread, but Link has an amazing camp game against IC's. Staying on the platforms with bombs is really difficult for them to stop. If you're on a platform, nanapults won't lead into anything, and their best way to get at you is to try and read where you're going with up airs. Link's moves don't separate the climbers very well, but you can use jabs and nairs to pressure their shield and wall them out. If you do get them separated, down smash is a good move for keeping them that way. Nana is also ludicrously easy to edge guard with up-B. Similar to resting Nana, you're going to be tagged after you use the move, but it's going to be worth whatever punish Sopo has for you.

That said, FD is stupid and unwinnable.

 

[jaymes]

I dual main Falco and Peach, and the reason I play peach is that I need a character that can help rest my hands, because my falco is very technical, peach can help rest my hands, because shes a little easier to play imo. Matchup wise, jigglypuff is still a problem, but IC's are easier to combat with peach, and sometimes the fox matchup can be easier because of peach's edgeguards.

 

[FE_Hector]

I dual main Falco and Peach, and the reason I play peach is that I need a character that can help rest my hands, because my falco is very technical, peach can help rest my hands, because shes a little easier to play imo. Matchup wise, jigglypuff is still a problem, but IC's are easier to combat with peach, and sometimes the fox matchup can be easier because of peach's edgeguards.

In what sense do you need to rest your hands? Do they just get tired after pressing so many buttons, do they start hurting, or what?

 

[Klemes]

Peach was my original main. Even if she's not as input-heavy as falco, she's still very technical. FC nair OoS is a real struggle, and is a necessary tool as well. In addition, I really think she's hard to get decent with, plus some match-ups are very frustrating even.

 

[C-SAF]

Then SAUS is bad at the matchup. I don't want to derail this thread, but Link has an amazing camp game against IC's. Staying on the platforms with bombs is really difficult for them to stop. If you're on a platform, nanapults won't lead into anything, and their best way to get at you is to try and read where you're going with up airs. Link's moves don't separate the climbers very well, but you can use jabs and nairs to pressure their shield and wall them out. If you do get them separated, down smash is a good move for keeping them that way. Nana is also ludicrously easy to edge guard with up-B. Similar to resting Nana, you're going to be tagged after you use the move, but it's going to be worth whatever punish Sopo has for you.

That said, FD is stupid and unwinnable.

He's played the matchup for a long time as its really his only high level competition in Ottawa. Like u said I don't want to derail the thread, but I think its the other way around and that u haven't played a good IC main that knows the matchup.

 

[Bravo_10]

He's played the matchup for a long time as its really his only high level competition in Ottawa. Like u said I don't want to derail the thread, but I think its the other way around and that u haven't played a good IC main that knows the matchup.

I get the feeling you're from Canada. I'm not going to claim to be as good of a Link main as SAUS, and I doubt there are any IC mains who know the matchup as well as the guy who plays SAUS all the time (I assume it's Vanitas you're talking about?). But I've practiced with Nintendude, and I've talked for a little bit with Dizzkid and Wobbles about how they think Link does versus the Climbers, and they all seem to think it's doable. Most Link players I see who lose to the Climbers lose patience and get punished for overextending themselves.

I suppose in the end, this might not even matter. If you're looking for a secondary to Falco, then there's a really good chance you don't like playing defensively or even look down on campy play. If you want to pick up Link for Falco's troublesome matchups, you will have to camp. Link isn't an inherently campy character, but in the top tier matchups he does well in, he can really abuse defensive play. If you don't trust your patience, you probably should try someone else.

 

[jaymes]

In what sense do you need to rest your hands? Do they just get tired after pressing so many buttons, do they start hurting, or what?

Well my fingers are very long, and since I wavedash using tap jump (dont worry im actually very good at it) my fingertips get "sore?" Im not sure how to describe it, but peach is just helping me not have to move my fingers around alot, at least not as much as falco.

 

[FE_Hector]

Well my fingers are very long, and since I wavedash using tap jump (dont worry im actually very good at it) my fingertips get "sore?" Im not sure how to describe it, but peach is just helping me not have to move my fingers around alot, at least not as much as falco.

I mean, you could always just try to WD in the more conventional way so that you're not having to hit the control stick that awkwardly. Alternatively, you might just have to work past it or hit the button in a slightly different way so as not to hurt yourself. I haven't heard of anybody WDing like that before, though. Pretty cool.