MMx2's TheoryBrewing Thread (Discussing Spacies?)

[MarioMariox2]

MMx2 here again. Looking at the Mario boards, there's several theory/technique threads scattered all over the place, so I think it's great idea to just make a thread dedicated to theory-brewing, making the Mario boards neater (since I don't think we have an active mod), and working on the Mario revival checklist.

I'd like to start off with proposing that Mario needs some creative tactics/a good move to enter the stage nice and easy. We gotta find optimal ways.

More of my genaralized examples:
Falcon has pretty good use of his knee getting on for example.
Falco has LHDL and even a way to stall (Fox also)
Marth's Fair is fast enough to maybe even combo from the edge.


What I've seen proposed was the Doraki Fireball Jump. I think if it's possible to do the doraki reverse walljump easily, we might get somewhere else . Discuss.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

All you could really do is scar jump into a doubble fireball an up-B back on to the edge however if they are somewhat close to the edge they could easily grab it and let you die.

maybe you could scarjump behide them if they are close enough to the edge into jab them off the edge.

waveland onto a platform and fair them coming down.

dair sending them off the edge somewhat.

walljump nair them as they try to recovery but really bair regrab the edge is safer/easier/better.

wall jump upair into another upair or nair would have to be frame perfect for mario's bad recovery.

really I use wall jumps a lot for stalling,edge tactics and junk but mario seems to have the most useless one next to maybe smaus and YL. like as sheik wall jump into bair to hit people for trying to punish me for being on the edge is useful also wall jump into fair to be fancy.

falcon it's part of my recovery/edge/getting back on stage I like his bair also.

falco.fox I wall jump into side-B stall his side-B gets like 2-3 inv. frames from the wall jump..

pichu to side-B, get bakc on with up-b and other thing like jolting them on stage.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

maybe you could scarjump behide them if they are close enough to the edge into jab them off the edge.

I like this idea with a nair instead of a jab

waveland onto a platform and fair them coming down.

I'd be worried about the startup time on fair. I think they'd shield on reaction. Plus how are you going to turn around before you fall off the edge? seems like a lot of risk for little reward.

dair sending them off the edge somewhat.

dair DOES NOT send people off the edge, unless the DI that way. even then they have to be above 40%. Dair is one of the better options because of the priority and comboability. it's definetly a good move for our hero to use when he's down on his luck grabbin on to a ledge.

walljump nair them as they try to recovery but really bair regrab the edge is safer/easier/better.

you said it yourself, bair is safer/easier/better/tastier/sexier/better/more suited for edgeguarding/better

really I use wall jumps a lot for stalling,edge tactics and junk but mario seems to have the most useless one next to maybe smaus and YL. like as sheik wall jump into bair to hit people for trying to punish me for being on the edge is useful also wall jump into fair to be fancy.

sorry guys but that's basically true. Mario has very slow air speed which is mainly why he is so underused. People like doc because he is heavier, thus faster in the air. This is why I like wavelanding and wavedashing around with mario because he is more suited for the ground.
Speaking of Mario's air speed, I forgot where I saw it, but you can do any attack besides Fair from the ledge and still be able to grab the ledge. (ledgehop uair, ledgehop dair, etc.) so maybe that information could be of some use.
Plumber foreva

 

[MarioMariox2]

I think Mario is actually Doc and Luigi's median with what you guys said. Maybe we should incorporate more Luigi tactics to mix up Mario, like WD-Ftilt/Dsmash?

 

[Lordydennek]

Dair onto stage is cool sometimes. if you go high enough. or just wl into grab. uair! love it.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

I think Mario is actually Doc and Luigi's median with what you guys said. Maybe we should incorporate more Luigi tactics to mix up Mario, like WD-Ftilt/Dsmash?

I've already been doing WD ftilt/ wd usmash
I think I like to save dsmash for when I crouch cancel ****
also check out some of scorp eh dorp's vids. he usually does fair -> dsmash
and I honestly am starting to think fireball is key to Mario. It's pretty ****ty, I think we're all aware, but if we can crack some way of using our one and only projectile to be actually useful, then we can go somewhere with the plumber

 

[MarioMariox2]

I honestly am starting to think fireball is key to Mario. It's pretty ****ty, I think we're all aware, but if we can crack some way of using our one and only projectile to be actually useful, then we can go somewhere with the plumber

FH Fireball to Uair/Nair is possible. Of course, that nair/dair leads to more things.

There's the unreliable-but-still-there, FH Fireball -> Double Jump Fireball -> Waveland

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

wait what? mario has slow air speed?

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Air_speed

no falco, fox, pichu,sheik have better uses for the wall jump other than maybe the up-B thing.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

wait what? mario has slow air speed?

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Air_speed

no falco, fox, pichu,sheik have better uses for the wall jump other than maybe the up-B thing.

let me rephrase: Mario seems floatier when compared to other characters
IE - he stays in the air longer than say, pikachu, which could be an advantage or a disadvantage. I mean, he can do a SH bair/uair and still waveland. Luigi can do two aerials in one SH, yet luigi's air speed on your link seems to be equal to mario's. I'm not trying to say your link was inaccurate, just not the correct info I was looking for. Sorry if I phrased what I said incorrectly.
But seriously, mario is pretty floaty

I also don't see how mario has any less uses than shiek does with her walljump
Shiek can Fair
Mario can Nair (and still make it back to the stage with double jump. UpB is tougher but possible)
Shiek can bair to stage spike them
Mario can do the same
Shiek can needle
Mario can throw a fireball, but truthfully needles are superior, because they move much faster.
Mario can also walljump cape. That'll mess up a falcon, and if timed right, a spacie.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Tell me when we start talking about Uair.

 

[MarioMariox2]

Mario can also WALLJUMP cape. That'll mess up a falcon, and if timed right, a spacie.

Ban Battlefield, Counterpick Yoshis, DL64, and/or FoD or this walljump won't happen LOL.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

Ban Battlefield, Counterpick Yoshis, DL64, and/or FoD or this walljump won't happen LOL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dj_54hAA3f0#t=6m13s
right there you can see M2K jumping back up and walljumping to shinespike that peach.

I think it'd be pretty cool if we could bring back the Upair blind. But only use it on people with terrible DI, cuz otherwise it won't work.

 

[Bamesy]

Tell me when we start talking about Uair.

Put me on this list.
The grab list too please.

 

[MarioMariox2]

Put me on this list.
The grab list too please.

Hey, Bamesy, weren't you gonna make a Mario guide for us?


Also, yeah, there is that small spot the walljump from. Too bad you can't doraki with that wall though D:

 

[Bamesy]

It's a long wall of words. Have you checked out the Luigi one? It's like that. No way I'm rushing that, but yes, I am.

It'll involve a bit of what you might cover in here, regarding 'maneuvers' and such. So maybe it'll help when you're all under way here and it's done.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

BAMESY'S POSTS ARE AT 69 HAHAHA
oh btw guys, dthrow -> usmash is very effective. incase u didn't know.

 

[Animal]

you guys are dumb. you just need to learn how 2 properly space like mango. just watch him and take notes.

 

[MarioMariox2]

Dthrow -> Usmash is more effective on spacies. With much that is said, as long as we are able to dodge quite well, Mario seems to be quite good against spacies (despite matchups).

Discuss.

 

[Kyu Puff]

...

?

Tell me when we start talking about Uair.

It's pretty good. Does this mean you have some obscure/interesting u-air tricks to share?

 

[M@1funk$hun]

Mario has a chaingrab on both spacies, so thats a guaranteed ~60% if done correctly.
Gonna be honest, the fox matchup isn't too bad for mario, but the falco one is.
I might be bias cause I'm still going on what I saw from Apex, and how everybody and they're grandmother there played falco, but the falco matchup is just disgusting for mario
Cape is like shine in the way of reflecting projectiles: it will reflect it back, but it has a good amount of lag afterward. Powershielding is obviously superior.
FH dair approach will probably work best against falco, but falco is pretty offense orientated, so it's usually better to just sit back and wait for him to approach cuz he will

 

[Lordydennek]

tbh fullhops are great ways to approach both spacies. Foxs nair will beat yours unless youre coming from above. about the drill. I like it a lot agianst both spacies BUT its more dangerous to use against fox. if you miss him its a gauranteed hit he'll get on you. just keep on top of falco as much as possible. the cape isnt a bad idea unless you use it like a dummy. if the falco ur against likes to ledgehop double laser cape the first one and watch him fall to his doom. if hes not fast enough anyway

 

[MarioMariox2]

Gonna be honest, the fox matchup isn't too bad for mario, but the falco one is.

Laser stopping power is probably the reason for this as Falco can make safer approaches.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

Laser stopping power is probably the reason for this as Falco can make safer approaches.

I think that's the case for all of the other characters too
but we have limited options around those lasers so go to any other high tier forums and read about falco's lasers
it'll tell you : use platforms, powershield, and be smart
basics for dealing with falco right there
oh and Animal, I know you're a LI smasher and everything but srsly gtfo. nobody lieks you. ur a terrible human being.
lol jk I don't even know you. spacing is key for every character and I agree with you

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's pretty good. Does this mean you have some obscure/interesting u-air tricks to share?

No.

I just like to Uair.

With every character.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

kirbykaze
that new profile picture
bro that's awesome

 

[KirbyKaze]

Dragons are now as pointlessly cute as vampires.

Oh well.

*snuggles Toothless*

 

[MarioMariox2]

Dragons are now as pointlessly cute as vampires.

Oh well.

*snuggles Toothless*

Mario vs Marth is like Toothless without those prosthetics. D:

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah, Marth is pretty cruel to poor Mario. He cheats.

 

[Lordydennek]

Iiiiiii'd have to say fighting marth is the most anoying mu besides sheik. the only good thing is that hes easier to gimp. and you can punish his smashes realllly well

 

[M@1funk$hun]

I think the thing with playing marth is baiting. because none of your moves have range enough to beat him (fsmash beats some aerials if he spaces poorly)
you should CP dreamland. that way you can try and get around his approaches with the platforms, and if you have good DI, you should be able to live just fine. Maybe FD, but I usually don't like that stage.
and we do not speak of sheik in the mario boards.

 

[j3ly]

running up to marth and shielding is probably the best strategy, also down cancelling the fairs until 30-40% into grabs/dsmashes works very well

every grab gotta be a huge combo

we cant really edgeguard him that well. cape works good. for this reason i normally CP battlefield - he cant sweetspot without great difficulty, so the cape becomes alot more effective. we can also recover really well here.

empty hop and DD and space a bair infront of him to get him into shield, bair waveland to begin shield pressure, commence spacing ****.

waveshield -grab/smash every failed fsmash.

spaced rolls also work very well against marth, specifically to get through his fair spam. usmash oos/WD oos to follow up

reading the above said there is a hell of alot i want to say, because in my own opinion most of it is unuseful waffle. unfortunaly i have no weed so im not going to make a big post

 

[M@1funk$hun]

reading the above said there is a hell of alot i want to say, because in my own opinion most of it is unuseful waffle. unfortunaly i have no weed so im not going to make a big post

lol j3ly too good

 

[j3ly]

should be bringing out a short combo video in the next couple of days, calling it pleasing to the eye cause its mainly ll segments of mario play that are, predictably, pleasing to the eye

expect many many bair perfect wavelands

 

[M@1funk$hun]

should be bringing out a short combo video in the next couple of days, calling it pleasing to the eye cause its mainly ll segments of mario play that are, predictably, pleasing to the eye

expect many many bair perfect wavelands

YES!
****IN LOVE THOSE
they're like "shneooooowwww kaplew"
and the other guy is like "huh---PLEWIE"
and the ladies are all like "HuuRay foar jellay!"
and ur like "pimpin"
then we all get laid
...
so yeah spacies...

 

[MarioMariox2]

Okay, we now have a SEGMENT for our community combo video.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm happy I Dair with Marth or make sure to jump back a little bit further when Mario and other characters sit in front of me, blatantly waiting for me to Fair incorrectly so they can do some measly crouch cancel work.

Mario's punishment vs Marth's landing lag is sort of good, sort of bad. Lightshield hog is great.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I've gought a few good marths what I know are the following projectiles ****, and spacing better than marth will always make you the winner.

If marth can't space as good as you he's dead DD/WD games will make him miss everything. really I feel that marth is somewhat like sheik when fighting them easy **** recoverys, space well, lots of mindgames=easy hits and hard too predict, projectiles and mix-ups and fake approachs are important.

Also know how to get hit if you are hit is important. also know how to edge tech.

OHHHHHHHHHHHHH marth's combos don't mean anything unless he gets you off the stage enough to edge gaurd you. unless he has to kill you off the top or something then combos are mad important for him.

also know how not to get grabbed. marth is the easiest high/top tier to deal with in this game unless your a space animal but yeah then his combos **** you off the stage.

 

[Lordydennek]

I think marth is easy to edgegaurd...is that just me.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

I think marth is easy to edgegaurd...is that just me.

nope
space the cape, and you'll **** (her her, I just made dat up)
I have very little marth experience cuz it's mostly falcons and foxes here on LI
but one little piece of advice I"m sure you learned early on
don't go out there
wanna make that sexy bair gimp that'll win you the match?
don't do it
you'll get eaten by basically any of his aerials and he'll still make it back to the stage
(ik you didn't ask for advice, I'm kinda saying this to anyone reading this and is looking for a little advice)
the thing with marth is getting him OFF the edge. his spacing options are overall greater than yours which means you have trouble getting in on him
ICG has some useful points in the post above yours. DD WD stuff will work great against a marth that doesn't space
quick question, does marth's sword eat fireballs like it does doc's pills? like I said, very little marth experience, so I haven't really seen it.
if they don't then they're obviously very effective, if they do, back to sliding all over the place looking for an opening

 

[Lordydennek]

His sword can stop them yes. this mu is all spacing and waiting. the fsmash is your best friend. BTW WHY ARE WE ONLY 40 AGISNT PUFF??? that mu is even i swear