Mindgames : In melee vs brawl : Read the first post before responding please.

[I.T.P]

I Completely agree with Jfred, he didn't even say that brawl is a better game, he said it focused more on mindgames due to the lowered tech skill requirement, and is thus a diffrent game.

I think the fact that you need to use mind games more, makes the possibilities of developing new and better mind games higher, and also makes the mind games themselves more effective, even if not neccesarily better or diffrent or new or more.

and thus, brawl becomes more mind game oriented than Melee.

this is not what makes brawl a better game in my opinion, the Balance,Stages and Characters do. the general style is just different, but enjoyable nontheless.

and pocky, not all chess players enjoy blitz chess, and while it has more options, it will also make smart players that take their time more viable to lose, even if they're better in no-clock chess.

my point is? these are two different styles, you can easily understand why some would prefer either.

personally I like Blitz chess, because it's a nice change from normal chess. but I can play both and enjoy both.

 

[Eggm]

You just did with what most brawl supporters do and what I mentioned in the 1st post and said "you need to use mind games more and brawl is more mind game oriented than melee." These are completely false until you can prove it rather than juts saying it. The fact that tech skill is needed in melee in order to preform mindgames doesn't mean theres less or that its less important if you can prove that otherwise please do. This whole thread was so people stopped saying the comments i quoted above, cause its completely false and frustrating to read over and over especially since no one backs it up whatsoever.

Doomblaze I don't hate brawl, I hate 90% of its community. If you read the OP you'd see that I said I enjoy brawl, i've even been to 2 tournaments for it.

 

[I.T.P]

You just did with what most brawl supporters do and what I mentioned in the 1st post and said "you need to use mind games more and brawl is more mind game oriented than melee." These are completely false until you can prove it rather than juts saying it. The fact that tech skill is needed in melee in order to preform mindgames doesn't mean theres less or that its less important if you can prove that otherwise please do. This whole thread was so people stopped saying the comments i quoted above, cause its completely false and frustrating to read over and over especially since no one backs it up whatsoever.

Doomblaze I don't hate brawl, I hate 90% of its community. If you read the OP you'd see that I said I enjoy brawl, i've even been to 2 tournaments for it.

there's not much to prove here, the game uses more mind games than Melee simply because it uses less tech skill than melee.the less you're focusing on performing technical points, the more you focus on outsmarting your opponent.

this is caused by the reduced speed, and the removal of constantly needed techniques like L-Canceling.

Melee did have more options, and more mind games, and if brawl ever reaches that it'll take a long time for it to happen, but that doesn't mean that the old mind games or mind games that were less effective in Melee are not playing a much bigger role, and it makes the game be more mind game focused, because you have less technical options that can create that tech barrier.

and with that, I won't argue this point anymore, since clearly you're looking for lists, and not arguments. but think about this a couple of times before dimissing it.

 

[=ArtH=]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6mSwqnR1SY

Good example of Mindgames

 

[Eggm]

there's not much to prove here, the game uses more mind games than Melee simply because it uses less tech skill than melee.the less you're focusing on performing technical points, the more you focus on outsmarting your opponent.

this is caused by the reduced speed, and the removal of constantly needed techniques like L-Canceling.

Melee did have more options, and more mind games, and if brawl ever reaches that it'll take a long time for it to happen, but that doesn't mean that the old mind games or mind games that were less effective in Melee are not playing a much bigger role, and it makes the game be more mind game focused, because you have less technical options that can create that tech barrier.

and with that, I won't argue this point anymore, since clearly you're looking for lists, and not arguments. but think about this a couple of times before dismissing it.

What happens when really good players like myself, get fully warmed up and don't have to focus what so ever on tech skill, and can focus completely on mind games/trickery. Once I've played for a few hours, I can fully focus on being tricky. I no longer have to think of the WD input its just like hitting A or something. L-canceling lol, my brain only recongizes its even in or not in the game when I miss one thats how unaware I am to it while playing, it so natural at this point. Surely there are times I have to focus on L-canceling like when doing fox's dair on a light shield, cause you fall at an awkward speed, but thats about as far as it goes. Lists are nice, but this kind of arguing is fun too. The real reason you wont' argue is because you have nothing to back it up with at all. Surely people just learning AT's in melee have to focus a lot of their attention to tech skill, but once you have them down packed a whole new world opens up where you have infinte options and its so fun to focus on just mindgames/trickery and fight your opponent. So, what is your argument for people who only put 1% of the brain power on tech skill once they've practiced for a lot of hours like myself? Also, playing melee at 1/2 speed with l-canceling banned, would make it more mindgame intensive? Hmm?

Brawl's a great game if you don't want to invest ungodly amounts of hours to make tech skill second nature to compete in a mind battle at the level of pros. But, unless you have done this you can't use your argument as you've never felt what it was like to be fully in control of your character with all the options melee makes available without having to focus on controller inputs. And if you have felt that, you wouldn't even have said what you did.

 

[Nobie]

I think one thing people are sort of ignoring or not bothering to talk about in this discussion is the balance of technical skill and strategy.

I think we should be asking ourselves not how much technical skills affect mind games or whether or not one precludes the other, but rather to what extent is the individual player allowed to find his own place in the context of competitive play. Or, to put it more simply, how much technical skill does it take to overwhelm strategy and vice versa, if at all possible that is.

Melee itself may be a nice example for this. Mew2King is considered an extremely technical player while Azen is considered to be better at "mindgames." Neither one is deficient in the other category at all, but part of it is not that they have different skills but whether or not both skill types can co-exist in the same competitive game and to what extent.

To use another example, in competitive Starcraft the most famous player of all time is Slayers Boxer. Years earlier he was considered the best player in the world, and his talent for micromanagement (a technical skill) and his ingenious and unorthodox strategies (mindgames) made him a formidable opponent. In recent years his situation has made it so that he cannot practice as many hours in the day, and his technical skill has waned, but he can still beat the newer, younger, and faster players by having a better sense of overall strategy and feeling the pulse of matches. He's no longer the best or even in the top 10, but he's still very competitive.

I think that some of the frustration that melee players are feeling going into Brawl is that they feel like they're being punished for their technical ability, like the slow pace of the game and lack of game-altering advanced techniques is essentially tying their hands up. One might say it's like taking a giant vat of oil and pouring it through a tiny straw.

The thing with technical skill and mind games is that having more of one but not the other doesn't really make a game better or worse. If I added 10 new technical skills to juggle and 10 new advanced techniques to learn and master to Melee, would it make it a better game? Or is it that it has the right balance of features, the right balance that allows players of various types to play at their best in a manner they find true to themselves?

The thing is, though, the balance of technical skill and strategy is not easily comparable from game to game, not even between Brawl and Melee. I think the true test of both mindgames and competitiveness is what happens when two players with widely differing philosophies and approaches to the same game clash with each other.

What will be the results? I don't know, you tell me.

 

[pockyD]

said so many times, but it’s not about the tech itself, it’s about the options they create

let’s say in brawl, all aerial moves have lag equivalent to their l-canceled counterparts in melee. in addition, you can turn around at any point in your dash (even a full dash) and dash the other way

these two changes require almost no technical ability, and yet great increase the depth of the game by opening up a whole world of movement options and “safe” moves (though they still aren’t really safe, they’re just safER). I realize that these changes don’t make sense at all, but there is very little doubt that this would produce a deeper game

 

[FredJ]

Rofl ! There's no mindgames if there is "safe moves", mindgames is to trick your opponent in doing what you want him to do in order to counter it. The lack of safes move in Brawl enhance the mindgame aspect because now before attacking you gotta be fking sure you tricked him in leaving himself open. If all you use are "safe moves" that can't be punished, that's no mindgames at all.

And people say there's more options in melee so there's more mindgames. Well that might be true, but you're totally missing the point. I never said there's more options in Brawl than melee, I said : "Brawl FOCUS more on MINDGAMES than Melee does and that's pure logic, if you're not a r-tard, you should understand that simple fact. Sure, if you take two players that have learned and mastered every technical aspects in the game(melee), all what's left are mindgames to defeat your opponent. But, in a real case scenario, nobody has the same tech skills, so in a game where the skills come from tech and mindgames, we can say it FOCUS LESS on mindgames, I didn't say there's no mindgames.

Brawl is like 2 melee players having the same tech skills, since the technical aspect in Brawl is so easy to do, what's left? Yep, mindgames and general game knowledges like a characters' moveset etc.

The OP is so biased, he wants us to list "mindgames" from both game and that doesn't make any sense with the topic, Brawl might have less "mindgames options" but it can STILL FOCUS MORE on the mindgames aspect.

Personnally, I'm a busy person and I'm so happy I don't need to play 200 hours to enjoy the game at his full potential, because for me it's fun when you're winning thru mindgames alone, not from a barrier that technical skills bring. And that's in my opinion what Smash is all about in it's core gameplay, Melee was just a mistake. There's plenty of technicals fighters out there, I don't need one more.

Also, the thread doesn’t ask you if you prefer a game with more technical skills or less, wheter you like more Melee or Brawl is your own opinion, but saying Melee focus more on mindgames than Brawl is just pure ignorance.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Also, the thread doesn’t ask you if you prefer a game with more technical skills or less, wheter you like more Melee or Brawl is your own opinion, but saying Melee focus more on mindgames than Brawl is just pure ignorance.

Eggm isn't saying that Melee necessarily has a greater focus on mindgames, he's saying that Melee has more mindgames and the mindgames in Melee are more complex due to the nature of Melee (faster pace / more options).

Of course Melee has less of a focus on mindgames than Brawl does. Brawl really has nothing else, but that doesn't mean the mindgames used in Brawl are any better than Melee's.

 

[FredJ]

"Ok, so first off i'm making this thread to hopefully stop all the misinformed people in the melee vs brawl debates who think that due to the slower engine that there is more mindgames in brawl or that they are MORE IMPORTANT."

He's basically saying what I just said, "due to the slower engine, that there is more mindgames in brawl(nobody said that or if they did, I don't necessary agree or disagree, we don't know yet, the game is still young) "or that they are MORE IMPORTANT" (That's the part I totally disagree, Mindgames is all Brawl have so of course they are more important than Melee's).

 

[battousai555]

Best example of mind games: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dHUfy_YBps

 

[Samochan]

"Ok, so first off i'm making this thread to hopefully stop all the misinformed people in the melee vs brawl debates who think that due to the slower engine that there is more mindgames in brawl or that they are MORE IMPORTANT."

He's basically saying what I just said, "due to the slower engine, that there is more mindgames in brawl(nobody said that or if they did, I don't necessary agree or disagree, we don't know yet, the game is still young) "or that they are MORE IMPORTANT" (That's the part I totally disagree, Mindgames is all Brawl have so of course they are more important than Melee's).

Lool reading comprehension ftw.

What he says is: "Ok, so first off i'm making this thread to hopefully stop all the misinformed people in the melee vs brawl debates who think that due to the slower engine that there is more mindgames in brawl or that they are MORE IMPORTANT."

Aka those who think Brawl has more mindgames or they are more important are misinformed.

 

[I.T.P]

Lool reading comprehension ftw.

What he says is: "Ok, so first off i'm making this thread to hopefully stop all the misinformed people in the melee vs brawl debates who think that due to the slower engine that there is more mindgames in brawl or that they are MORE IMPORTANT."

Aka those who think Brawl has more mindgames or they are more important are misinformed.

but that's just it, brawl might not have more(quantity) mind games, but it has more(they have to be used more) mind games than Melee, and they're definately more important, because the skill barrier is much smaller.

 

[Samochan]

but that's just it, brawl might not have more(quantity) mind games, but it has more(they have to be used more) mind games than Melee, and they're definately more important, because the skill barrier is much smaller.

You again? >_>

Whatever, I was just complementing this dude for his awesome reading comprehension. But you still do not have anything to back your point about why brawl seemingly has more more mindgames than on melee. So you should back up your arguments pronto, unless you want your arguments to be teared up by the lack of them. <_<

Example of why there is more mindgames on melee than brawl:

Everyone knows melee has loads of techchasing going around. Brawl does lack quite a lot on this aspect, cause you can pretty much always recover before you need to tech. And even while you use the moves that can be used for chasing purposes (ganondorf forward b for example), you cannot feint anymore due to the lack of mobility and have to resort to plain guessing game. And that's only character specific, anyone can tech chase on melee should someone topple to the ground. You can make opponents do specific actions like wakeup attack by going close to them, or you could predict their actions beforehand if they lack mixups. Heck, even the techer can pull mindgames on you, by predicting your action and punish if you're just too slow. Amsah once said, "use your opponents logic against them", that's mindgames. This just doesn't happen on brawl and anything remotely close to tech chasing on melee is character specific and either can be avoided by timing (ganon forward b) or is just plain stupid that doesn't need any prediction going on, just reaction (GW and Falco dthrows, need some clarification on these, I've yet to test them thoroughly, but falco dthrow to laser lock lol wtf).

 

[Corigames]

You again? >_>

You know you've reached super star level when posts start like this.

I'm jealous.

 

[I.T.P]

You again? >_>

Whatever, I was just complementing this dude for his awesome reading comprehension. But you still do not have anything to back your point about why brawl seemingly has more more mindgames than on melee. So you should back up your arguments pronto, unless you want your arguments to be teared up by the lack of them. <_<

I don't think that argument needs any special back up, aside from the one in my previous post(the one before that quoting you)

Brawl is a slower, and less technical game than Melee, I will not argue that it has more mind games than Melee in terms of quantity, because whether or not that is true could go both ways, if it is true, it will be due to the increased number of possibilities due to characters and due to move decay changing the situation drastically.

but it is more than obvious that due to decreased speed, and due to lesser technical requirement\barrier, the game forces you to outsmart your opponent and use mind games more, even if they are idealogically the same ones you'll see in Melee, or similiar to ones you'll see in Melee, the fact they are now more usefull or more necessary because of the removed options to counter them with tech skill, or the removed requirement of tech skill in order to use them, makes the game focus on them that much more.


and saying the results are less effective than they used to be is not a valid counter argument, because that doesn't make them ineffective, it only makes them that much more needed to be repeatedly used with as much variety as possible, to avoid the enemy learning you.

 

[Samochan]

You know you've reached super star level when posts start like this.

I'm jealous.

Anything for you Coreygames. ^^

And I.T.P, you still failed to give any examples and backup of how there is seemingly mindgames on brawl. Why they are for some reason more useful now? Because even if you were to outsmart your opponent on brawl, you either cannot punish due to some awesome brawl mechanics that make rolling and shielding ridiculous for example, or your punishment for every action you predict is minimal due to new hitstun system and blaa blaa. With this I'd conclude that mindgames are less important on brawl, because you do not get rewarded or might get even punished for succesfully mindgaming your opponent and in overall, being a more smarter player. I fail to see someone punishing Rob spot dodge spamming into dsmash on brawl because the lag time is so minimal, even while someone knew you'd do such thing. And when you get a succesfull hit in? You either get one measily 10% or get hit back, lol.

-> Goes to make pizza

 

[Yuna]

Samochan, why are you even trying with I.T.P.? After reading through just his posts on this page in the thread, I've determined that yet again he's venting some very misinformed opinions (not facts). And unlike smart people, he's, yet again, failing to see reason even when valid arguments and facts are used to refute him while he has zero facts to back up his arguments.

 

[Samochan]

Samochan, why are you even trying with I.T.P.? After reading through just his posts on this page in the thread, I've determined that yet again he's venting some very misinformed opinions (not facts). And unlike smart people, he's, yet again, failing to see reason even when valid arguments and facts are used to refute him while he has zero facts to back up his arguments.

I dunno, I felt I had to respond with something cause he started to debate over some random post. >_>

And I had to thank coreygames for responding to my post like that. ^^

 

[illboyzeus]

less options equal less mindgames, point blank. You can only do so much with the tools in this game. at any given time you have about four things you could do.

 

[pockyD]

Rofl ! There's no mindgames if there is "safe moves", mindgames is to trick your opponent in doing what you want him to do in order to counter it. The lack of safes move in Brawl enhance the mindgame aspect because now before attacking you gotta be fking sure you tricked him in leaving himself open. If all you use are "safe moves" that can't be punished, that's no mindgames at all.

the reason i quoted it is because "safe moves" aren't actually safe; they're just SAFER

any moron can punish a whiffed ganon dair in brawl, but it takes timing to punish a whiffed, l-canceled ganon dair in melee, for example

i don't think falco's shield pillar is truly safe either (unless you include a good amount of multishines), as most chars can nair out of it i think

 

[FredJ]

Yuna, we know you love melee and it's your choice, but don't bash on I.T.P, he's the only smart guy here who understand what I am saying and you're the one who doesn't have any valid arguments to back it up. I mean you're always coming here to give arguments about how much Brawl sucks compared to melee blablabla, then why don't you just play melee ? Why are you lurking on Brawl's forum? If you can't understand the simple fact that when you're playing a game with no technical skills, you just gotta have to outsmart your opponent to win, then I don't know what more to tell you. In case you suck at reading, I'll repeat myself again : I.T.P and I never said that there's more mindgames in Brawl than Melee, we said Brawl focus more on it than Melee, because in Brawl there's no barrier of technical skills or almost none.

Melee is like Blitz Chess, when you're on a short time constraint to execute a move, you're most likely to do the "wrong move", maybe it wasn't that bad of a move but you didn't have time to think up the best move possible considering the situation. And that's where mindgames are different in brawl than melee and in blitz chess and regular chess. Blitz chess is still turn based so there's no technical skills involved, but it brings a complete different set of mindgame than regular chess, in blitz the mindgame are "short term" just like melee because it's so fast that you'll get hit or you will hit your opponent based on thing he didn't see or was too slong to respond due to a limited time constraint and the more fast the game is, the more it will enhance on short term mindgames. Alot of people love blitz chess, just like alot prefer the melee concept. People who love Brawl, are the ones who probably prefer regular chess where you predict 20-30 moves instead of just the first few 2-3 moves like in Blitz.

If the Shield in Brawl is so strong and so is rolling (rofl rolling is so punishable but whatever), then plan 10 moves ahead instead of just one, act smart. You can fake attacking him, forcing him to block, then you can retreat a little and do it again, eventually his shield will be small that he won't be able to rely on it for long, that's when you strike, when the shield is low, even if he blocks, some attacks will go thru it because it's not covering the entire body anymore. That's an exemple of long term mindgame. People going recklessly all out in Brawl trying to combo and being flashy usually fail.

So in summary, Melee and Brawl have two differents mindgames aspect. Melee have short term mindgames, Brawl have long term. In order to get good at Melee, you gotta learn alot of technicals skills and master them, so the focus is on technicals skills and mindgames(that's when 2 people with around the same technicals skills play each others). In Brawl, you have close to no technical skills to learn, so the focus is just on mindgames, that's why it FOCUS MORE on mindgames, because that's pretty much the only thing you gotta learn. Now for the "quantity of mindgames", maybe there's more options in Melee, but then again, Brawl is a new game so we don't know for sure. Again, wheter you like a more technical fighter with more limited time constraint to think(fast speed) aka playing with your hands rather than your brain, it's your choice. But I'm one who likes to have the time to think up the best move and the best strategies with no Barrier of technical skills in order to succeed.

 

[pockyD]

looks like someone stole my analogy and completely misused it to make no sense

there is almost NO technical barrier in competitive melee... most competitive melee players are perfectly capable of doing almost everything that m2k ever uses in a match... he just uses it better

the "technical" barrier only separates serious players from non-serious players; once you enter the tournament scene, being able to wash dance, l cancel, dash dance, short hop, fast fall, ALL OF THAT is pretty much assumed

in the end...

brawl - you have almost full seconds to make your decision, at which point you try to discern which out of 3 options your opponent is performing and which out of 3 options you should do to counter it

melee - you have a matter of frames to figure out which of 7-8 possible things your opponent is doing, and decide which of your own 7-8 options you should perform in return

 

[CStrife187]

Normally I don't post outside of the Regional Zones thread, but I have to say something here.

I keep seeing things like "melee had an impenetrable technical barrier that overpowered mindgames" and "brawl has less of a technical aspect, so you have to use more mindgames."

Both of these statements are false in my opinion. Of course the increased control of your character in melee lead to their being more mindgames, and the faster pace of the game lead to an increase in the number of different mindgames used by a player in any given match.

I think the reason we keep seeing arguments come up like this is because so many brawl players, even some who may play brawl at a fairly high level, were never really competitive in melee. Because Brawl has less of a technical aspect than melee, the mindgames become apparent sooner in the competitive player's development cycle than in the melee player's.

Just because you can reach the level where mindgames are important more easily doesn't mean that mindgames are more important in Brawl than they are in melee, they're just easier to do. This doesn't make Brawl a better game for being more accessible, and it doesn't make melee a better game for being more complex, it just makes them different games.

I like both games, and will continue to play both as long as there are players around me with whom I enjoy playing. Brawl exclusive players, please quit hating on melee because it's a more technical game and understand that it has plenty of mindgames that are just as important as the ones in Brawl. I say this because I see more brawl players hating on melee than I do melee players hating on brawl in this thread.

I'm sorry I didn't list any specific mindgames in my post.

 

[Doomxeen]

Brawl is about patience and simple(VERY SIMPLE) tactics. It is very fundamental and nothing is wrong with that; but trying to speak of it as you would melee is just silly to me.

I think the vast majority of people that bring up "mind-games" and such in reference to brawl are just recycling things they saw written about melee by people who actually knew what they were talking about. They spent years having no real opinion, but now that brawl is out, they will emulate the people they spectated for years, all the while acting like they've been with it the whole time.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

i don't think falco's shield pillar is truly safe either (unless you include a good amount of multishines), as most chars can nair out of it i think

As well as almost every character being able to shieldgrab it, and many characters being able to upB out of it, and wavedash back fsmash, and shine oos for spacies, etc, etc.

Falco's pillar is definitely not safe, it's just aggressive and dangerous and can lead to a number of Falco's moves that combo, so people are scared of it.

That's one reason why any type of shield pressure in Brawl is less useful, you get nothing out of it and people are more likely to break out and hit you for it.

 

[Corigames]

I dunno, I felt I had to respond with something cause he started to debate over some random post. >_>

And I had to thank coreygames for responding to my post like that. ^^

Am I popular now? :D