Mii Gunner competitive viability?

[Strong-Arm]

So what is everyone's thoughts on Mii Gunners competitive viability? Personally I see her as a completely viable and decent character for tournament play...if customs are allowed. Her 3132 set improves her significantly, similar to how Ganon and Palutena improve from their customs. Since customs are becoming common and are starting to be legalized across the board this is great for MG. So anyways what do the rest of you guys think?

 

[AEMehr]

Is that true? I heard people saying customs were going to die after EVO, glad to hear it may not be the case after all!

I mean, like you say, I think without customs this character has a difficult time.

- Without the right height and weight, it really can cripple the character. When Gunner is forced to be her default height and weight, I do think it lowers her viability a fair amount.
- Gunner's "default" specials, 1111, are a pretty solid set. But Grenade Launch and Bomb Drop are super great moves to have in pretty much any and every situation (Bomb Drop is arguable due to match-ups, but the Grenades are just better in general since Charged Shot is like the worst charged projectile in the game).​

I've played as Gunner for awhile now, but only just started experimenting with 1111 and 50/50 and 25/0 height and weight in the past three months or so (I kinda just used to use what the Mii had and worked with it). So yes, I do think her viability shoots up with the legalization of customs, but if we can work with TOs letting us have varying height/weight we can still be better off in the long run even if customs are left off.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Customs are dead now, so Mii Gunner can only use default weight with 1111 set how.

That default set is still very good. I've been lobbing it up a lot more with the 1111 set and I love it.

 

[Routa]

Customs are dead now, so Mii Gunner can only use default weight with 1111 set how.

That default set is still very good. I've been lobbing it up a lot more with the 1111 set and I love it.

Dead? Nah. I must remind that Location X =/= World. There are many places where customs are still allowed, 'cause since TOs care sbout the game.

But Mii Gunner is viable if you ask me. Yeah he/she/it isn't on the same lvl as Sheik but he/she/it is viable. Ofc the fact that Miis are on the "danger zone" atm makes him/her/it hardly used. But if we only think about how he/she/it works on paper... Well then I think he/she/it is ok character in competitive scene.

 

[Kaytenay]

I honestly believe mii gunner is top tier. Mii gunner in my opinion is top tier solely due to her MU against some top tiers.
Sheik can often camp with needles, but with mii's forward air, being able to camp, and flame pillar stopping sheiks approaches in her tracks, and the biggest thing stopping sheik is if you space/time bomb drop correctly when sheik tries to grab the ledge she just explodes. This makes the MU about even
Luigi wants to get in with his fireball so he can grab, but you can absorb fireballs, and keep him out of grab range. Also due to Luigi's low traction the tip of mii's side smash is generally safe on shield. overall this MU is about even.
Rosalina is dominated by mii gunner. Luma is smacked away by mii's f-air, shorthop f-air hits over luma, whenever rosy tries to up-air you just use up-b (the one with the projectile), if she tries to absorb f-air just use it again and it will hit her during endlag, and she is the right weight to be juggled by f-air Mii wins this MU
Flame pillar to punish spin dashes... that is all that needs to be said. Even MU

Am I wrong, almost certainly, but this is just my opinion

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

I honestly believe mii gunner is top tier. Mii gunner in my opinion is top tier solely due to her MU against some top tiers.
Sheik can often camp with needles, but with mii's forward air, being able to camp, and flame pillar stopping sheiks approaches in her tracks, and the biggest thing stopping sheik is if you space/time bomb drop correctly when sheik tries to grab the ledge she just explodes. This makes the MU about even
Luigi wants to get in with his fireball so he can grab, but you can absorb fireballs, and keep him out of grab range. Also due to Luigi's low traction the tip of mii's side smash is generally safe on shield. overall this MU is about even.
Rosalina is dominated by mii gunner. Luma is smacked away by mii's f-air, shorthop f-air hits over luma, whenever rosy tries to up-air you just use up-b (the one with the projectile), if she tries to absorb f-air just use it again and it will hit her during endlag, and she is the right weight to be juggled by f-air Mii wins this MU
Flame pillar to punish spin dashes... that is all that needs to be said. Even MU

Am I wrong, almost certainly, but this is just my opinion

Why would Sheik camp when she can just get in your face and wreck you with rush down?

Why would you even use absorb vs Luigi? The point of the my is to play a heavy keep away, and bomb drop helps greatly with that MU.

How does Gunner counter Rosalina exactly? A smart Rosalinda will not mindlessly spam gravity pull, and will get in your bubble a lot.

Why would you even use flame pillar or absorb? Missile and bomb drop are superior options. You are giving Mii Gunner way too much credit. Tiny Mii Gunner with 1312 is high tier material, but I wouldn't say it's top tier. If gunner is forced to use guest size. She becomes mid tier at best.

1312 and 3312 are the most effective sets for Mii Gunner. San and I can agree with these sets being the most optimal for competitive play.

 

[wizrad]

Customs are not dead, and Miis don't have customs anyways. On topic, I think Mii Gunner is very good and seriously underrated. Looking at the r/smashbros (or whatever) tier list (which I have many gripes with, but is close enough), I'd say Mii Gunner falls in the B tier, next to Pac-man.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Customs are not dead, and Miis don't have customs anyways. On topic, I think Mii Gunner is very good and seriously underrated. Looking at the r/smashbros (or whatever) tier list (which I have many gripes with, but is close enough), I'd say Mii Gunner falls in the B tier, next to Pac-man.

No big tournament is interested in putting customs, so they are pretty much dead at this point. Unless Wizard legalizes them for Evo 2016. Customs are dead at the moment.

There's just so much hate for Miis from the big and popular To's. I would totally be okay with miss being stuck to 1 size and 1 set. I can use only tiny 1312 Gunner? Sweet! That's all I need. Trying to legalize miss to alter sizes and moves is just asking for a huge disaster to happen, and the tO's will never agree to it sadly.

 

[Kaytenay]

Why would Sheik camp when she can just get in your face and wreck you with rush down?

Why would you even use absorb vs Luigi? The point of the my is to play a heavy keep away, and bomb drop helps greatly with that MU.

How does Gunner counter Rosalina exactly? A smart Rosalinda will not mindlessly spam gravity pull, and will get in your bubble a lot.

Why would you even use flame pillar or absorb? Missile and bomb drop are superior options. You are giving Mii Gunner way too much credit. Tiny Mii Gunner with 1312 is high tier material, but I wouldn't say it's top tier. If gunner is forced to use guest size. She becomes mid tier at best.

1312 and 3312 are the most effective sets for Mii Gunner. San and I can agree with these sets being the most optimal for competitive play.

Yah you are right

 

[san.]

I'm starting to like 3312.

Gunner has improved a ton with the recent patch, but no tournaments let her even use her moves properly, so it's all conjecture. I think she's easy high tier+ with 3312.

Absorb is okay vs. characters who rely on such projectiles, but it's always a tradeoff since bomb drop is so helpful in disadvantage.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

I'm starting to like 3312.

Gunner has improved a ton with the recent patch, but no tournaments let her even use her moves properly, so it's all conjecture. I think she's easy high tier+ with 3312.

Absorb is okay vs. characters who rely on such projectiles, but it's always a tradeoff since bomb drop is so helpful in disadvantage.

I agree, I'm starting to like grenade more than charge shot. Grenade is way better with guest size mii, because people close in too easily vs guest size, and you get less time to get consistent charge shots.

 

[san.]

I agree, I'm starting to like grenade more than charge shot. Grenade is way better with guest size mii, because people close in too easily vs guest size, and you get less time to get consistent charge shots.

1312 is also a little weak to power shielding. Grenade acts as a check to power shields and grenade has good synergy with missile, bomb drop, fair, and upB1.

I was using the grenade the wrong way since the patch, but 1312 allowed me to develop using missile more, so now I understand how missiles can be used with the balanced grenades.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

1312 is also a little weak to power shielding. Grenade acts as a check to power shields and grenade has good synergy with missile, bomb drop, fair, and upB1.

I was using the grenade the wrong way since the patch, but 1312 allowed me to develop using missile more, so now I understand how missiles can be used with the balanced grenades.

Imagine if both of us could use our 3312 gunners in touenammets.... We'd annoy so many people lol

 

[Pegasus Knight]

But it's so much easier for people to just ban your character (but doing so with absurdly designed rules so they can save face and say they were 'trying to be fair to everyone'.)

I keep trying 1111 Guest-size Gunner and I keep going "Wow, this is bad. This character suuuuucks in this form."

 

[19_]

Did anyone watch the recent clash tournaments stream?
Chibo got second using mostly mii gunner, showing the character has serious potential.
Bomb drop (downB2) looking like a godly move that can reset to neutral.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Is there a link for us to watch the archive?

 

[GS3K]

Is there a link for us to watch the archive?

Try this one:

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments

 

[wizrad]

Chibo also interestingly used Charge Shot as opposed to Grenades, apparently because the character reminds him of Melee Samus.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Try this one:

http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments

Excellent. Thanks, will check this out when I get back from work today.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Bomb drop (downB2) looking like a godly move that can reset to neutral.

Bomb drop can reset neutral on hit or block, but gun dashing with forward air is better for resetting to neutral.

 

[CT Chia]

Chibo also interestingly used Charge Shot as opposed to Grenades, apparently because the character reminds him of Melee Samus.

Correct, since I've been playing Samus in Melee since 2007, I'm so in tune with Charge Shot that the setups and usage of it are second nature to me. It's also good for racking up damage and a backup kill move at high percents if all else fails. Super optimal might be grenade, but Charge Shot is also very viable.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Mii Gunner was put around 30-36 on the Japanese tier list. There is also a Mii Gunner main from Japan named ROM that is going to Genesis 3.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

Correct, since I've been playing Samus in Melee since 2007, I'm so in tune with Charge Shot that the setups and usage of it are second nature to me. It's also good for racking up damage and a backup kill move at high percents if all else fails. Super optimal might be grenade, but Charge Shot is also very viable.

After reading this thread I actually tried out making a Mii Gunner and I must say she's actually kinda fun to play, I might even pick her up as secondary if Mii's become accepted everywhere.
After some testing I really prefer the grenade shot though, perhaps because it's tough for people to judge at which angle it's gonna fly since it's very variable.

 

[AEMehr]

Welcome to the fam, Gamer.

ROM's placement on Wombo Wednesday at Smash@SCU was pretty nice. He tied for Ninth out of of 129 entrants!
Granted, Gunner is rarely played ever so lack of match-up knowledge probably played a key factor, but hey that's still something special.

 

[Lvl99Gamer]

Welcome to the fam, Gamer.

ROM's placement on Wombo Wednesday at Smash@SCU was pretty nice. He tied for Ninth out of of 129 entrants!
Granted, Gunner is rarely played ever so lack of match-up knowledge probably played a key factor, but hey that's still something special.

Earlier in this thread you mentioned the effect of height/weight on Mii's but even after a bit of searching I can't find any consistency, people's preferred spreads seem to be all over the place.

Did I perhaps miss a thread discussing the pro's and cons of height/weight spreads?

 

[Djmarcus44]

Earlier in this thread you mentioned the effect of height/weight on Mii's but even after a bit of searching I can't find any consistency, people's preferred spreads seem to be all over the place.

Did I perhaps miss a thread discussing the pro's and cons of height/weight spreads?

There is a thread on the second page about mii gunner's best weight that has a vote on the best size for gunner. Most people think that Mii Gunner's best sizes are either 0/0 or 25/0, and just about everyone agrees that Mii Gunner is better and more mobile when he/she is as light as possible.

 

[DJBor]

OK, so I started messing around with Mii Gunner again. This time, instead of 3111 Wide I tried out Default. I found out about fair dashing, and tried it out and... We might have something here. Mii Gunner, using the Fair Dash, grants Mii Gunner the highest air speed in the game (above Yoshi). And though this can't be used to follow up with an aerial (due to high endlag), its wavedash-like glide property makes it into a ground approach option. Out of the wavedash part, you can freely pivot into literally any ground attack placed in either direction depending on input timing. This advanced tech might just be the metagame that Default Mii Gunner has been looking for to survive.

Should I make this topic its own thread?

 

[GS3K]

^ Gundashing is an already known thing amongst gunners...

 

[AEMehr]

OK, so I started messing around with Mii Gunner again. This time, instead of 3111 Wide I tried out Default. I found out about fair dashing, and tried it out and... We might have something here. Mii Gunner, using the Fair Dash, grants Mii Gunner the highest air speed in the game (above Yoshi). And though this can't be used to follow up with an aerial (due to high endlag), its wavedash-like glide property makes it into a ground approach option. Out of the wavedash part, you can freely pivot into literally any ground attack placed in either direction depending on input timing. This advanced tech might just be the metagame that Default Mii Gunner has been looking for to survive.

Should I make this topic its own thread?

Evidently, it has it's own thread deep in the board (which is not saying much since we only have three pages lol).

Gun-Dashing / Fair-Canceling is a pretty pivotal tool for Mii Gunner. At the end of the day it hasn't really drawn people to the character since she still has little to no publicly known representation, but it's what makes this character very unique in my eyes. Gun-Dashing is a great way to mix-up recovery and catch opponents with sneak attacks in dire situations. A cross-up fair to up / down tilt is my favorite way of ending sets.

 

[DJBor]

Yeah, I know that Gundashing is a known thing, but then how come nobody uses Mii Gunner if he/she can attain the highest air speed in the game? The word should get out there somehow.

 

[GS3K]

Because that alone isn't really much of a good reason to pick up gunner?

 

[Djmarcus44]

Yeah, I know that Gundashing is a known thing, but then how come nobody uses Mii Gunner if he/she can attain the highest air speed in the game? The word should get out there somehow.

Most people know that Gunner gets the fastest airspeed in the game when gundashing. There are several reasons why Mii Gunner isn't used very often in any level of play.

1. Miis are not very popular in general because their rulesets aren't universal. A lot of people like Miis because of their customization, and the rules of most tournaments restricts customization.

2. The fact that Miis are banned from For Glory makes it harder to practice them.

3. The fact that Miis can be customized to a greater extent than the rest of the cast leads some people to feel that Miis aren't real characters.

4. Mii Gunner is a zoning character, and most people don't like to play as zoners.

5. Mii Gunner's substandard combo game also keeps people from playing the character.

6. Although Gunner does pretty well against most top tiers, Mii Gunner isn't really the best counterpick to most top tiers in the game.

7. There is some misinformation that has been spread about Mii Gunner that makes the character look weak.

All of these things combine to make Mii Gunner a character that isn't worth playing for most people.

 

[SR-71]

Those are all good points.

While gundashing looks cool and opens up some excellent defensive options, it can be pretty bad offensively because:

1.) you can't usually perform an aerial while moving at high speed through the air, due to Fair's huge amount of cooldown lag. You have to either double jump first, which allows a second aerial before landing, or you must land and jump again, or perform a grounded attack instead.

2.) you must be facing backwards if you want to approach with gundashing. This makes you an easy target because you either have to slide directly into the opponent with your butt, or fly right over his head and land behind him. This is excellent as a surprise kill option, because you can gundash behind and Fsmash or Dsmash someone and it tends to surprise them into dropping shield the first couple of times. Or grab them. But after that, a good opponent (or one familiar with Gunner) will not fall for this trick, they'll shield properly or just intercept you with an attack when you fly over/past them. I have occasionally found it useful to gundash towards the opponent and land in front of him, and immediately turn around and grab or dtilt, as a surprise, but it's usually safer to remain at a distance and zone.

Still, gundashing is hella fun and useful for moving around the stage, and it's the main reason I picked up Gunner. I think Puff and Yoshi have the fastest airspeed after Gunner. I wish there was a mod which could eliminate Fair's endlag and we could rapid-fire thru the air xD

 

[C0rvus]

Forgive me if this is a bad place to field this question, but is 1111 Gunner worth pursuing? I find Gun Dashing really fun and interesting, and the character is cool. The only issue is my local events only allow 1111 Guest size Miis. Now, I'm going to try and get all Mii specials unrestricted but for now, I'm not sure. Noone I know plays the character, I can hardly find footage of it, too.

 

[GS3K]

Most of the vanilla gunner stuff is in the gunner videos thread.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mii-gunner-videos.380854/

This is one example, but there's some other ones by Flama in the thread.

 

[SR-71]

Type "Flama gunner" in Youtube for good examples of 1111 gunner. I would argue 1111 is one of the best sets for Gunner, with the only question being whether you prefer Bomb Drop or Reflector for the down special. You just need to learn how to combo into Charge shot, and cancel charge into jump, and aerial reverse charge shot for mixups. Then learn how to edge guard with Flame Pillar. Reflector is also a good frame-3 combo breaker, and it can be used to turn around in midair offstage and fair for the gundash recovery. There are frequently at least 1 or 2 highly ranked Gunners on Anthers Ladder, where 1111 is the only legal set. Last I checked a few days ago, someone was ranked in the top 20 on the ladder using about 46% Gunner. Flama and Hoodoo (sp?) also get to Platinum and above sometimes with only 1111 Gunner. So yeah, don't worry about 1111 being viable because it is very good.

 

[C0rvus]

So I've watched a bunch of matches now, and from what I've seen, 1111 Gunner looks pretty solid. Is there any kind of consensus on the character's matchup spread? Does Gunner do well against, Diddy, for example? That's what really matters, since I'm maybe looking to secondary Gunner.

 

[Routa]

So I've watched a bunch of matches now, and from what I've seen, 1111 Gunner looks pretty solid. Is there any kind of consensus on the character's matchup spread? Does Gunner do well against, Diddy, for example? That's what really matters, since I'm maybe looking to secondary Gunner.

Didn't expect to see you here hehe.

And no... Gunner does not do well against Diddy. Our cqc is way too poor to deal with his pressure. He does do rather well against Cloud and Bayonetta according to theorycrafting, but there is next to no proof from that due to there being very little data of Gunner vs Character X. I do think you need specific set for thous MUs to turn from 45:55/50:50 into 50:50/55:45, but then again I'm just a Swordspider player.

 

[C0rvus]

Ah, okay. Why do all the fun characters have to lose to the dumb monkey?! I figure I'll give the character a try and maybe try to annoy my TOs into allowing Mii specials. Thanks for the replies, folks. And hi, Routa. I didn't expect to find myself here, either lol

 

[Djmarcus44]

Didn't expect to see you here hehe.

And no... Gunner does not do well against Diddy. Our cqc is way too poor to deal with his pressure. He does do rather well against Cloud and Bayonetta according to theorycrafting, but there is next to no proof from that due to there being very little data of Gunner vs Character X. I do think you need specific set for thous MUs to turn from 45:55/50:50 into 50:50/55:45, but then again I'm just a Swordspider player.

To my knowledge Gunner is 2-2 in sets against Diddy Kong. At Genesis 3, ROM was able to use his Gunner to beat Sean's Diddy 2-0 to get out of the first pool after losing 2-0 against him in the first round (Since both of them tied for 9th in Wombo Wednesday at Smash@SCU, it is safe to assume that they are about even in skill level). While Diddy Kong wins CQC with his dtilt, Gunner controls mid to long range with fair and charge blast. In addition, Diddy Kong's dtilt confirms are harder to get on Gunner due to Gunner's low fall speed. Gunner can also get some really good damage from grabs since Diddy Kong is a fastfaller (Dthrow to nair and up throw to up tilt are true combos at low percents on him). Gunner's flame pillar also gives Gunner the advantage in edgeguarding. The matchup is pretty even because Gunner has an easier time in neutral and disadvantage than Diddy Kong, and it makes up for Diddy Kong's superior combo game.

C0rvus , Mii Gunner is a decent choice for a secondary since the character doesn't have any unwinnable matchups. Gunner also does well against Sheik, Ryu, ZSS and Sonic.