Mii Brawler Mini Rebalance/Redesign Thread

Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
558
#1
Mini-Redesign/Rebalance Threads

:ultmario: Mario

:ultdk: Donkey Kong

:ultkirby: Kirby

:ultbrawler: Mii Brawler
This is a topic I've been wanting to do for a while involving the forever underappreciated Mii Fighters. Ever since their rework in Ultimate as well as their absolutely awesome visual updates (seriously, I was in awe at how pleasing to the eye all of them were in the E3 "Everyone is Here" trailer when I first saw them), I've been enamored by them in ways. It's mostly their special moves that interest me, though I would personally like to look through some Mii based games to get some extra references in there, so I might come back to this when I look into that. For now, I wish to share a small idea I've had for them, as well as some changes to their specials. Starting with Mii Brawler!

-----------------------------------------------------------

:GCRT::GCB: Shield-B:

  • New move: Change Style: Holding down Shield-B will allow the player to dynamically change their special moves on the fly via a small menu above their character. Can cancel by shielding or dodging. After choice is made, will briefly be in endlag
    • Menu is navigated by pressing the corresponding button combo (B, side-B, up-B, or down-B) and then either A or B afterwards for the other two selections of corresponding special move
      • Menu UI in character select screen would allow for player to choose which special moves will be default at the beginning of the match
  • Below average endlag

-----------------------------------------------------------

I doubt I'm the first to come up with this idea, but allow for all 12 special moves to be accessed during battle. It would give all three Mii's a unique function and mechanic they can work with. And unlike something like Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon Change or Shulk's Arts, you have quite a bit of endlag after selecting your new move, meaning you have to be deliberate in seeing when you should switch. Do you want a combo oriented special like Thrust Uppercut because you think you can rushdown the opponent? Or do you want Soaring Axe Kick for recovery? Do you want the heavy read potential of Exploding Side Kick or the more general purpose Shot Put for mid range zoning? Heck, switching to certain specials could potentially change the playstyle of the opponent, giving you some say in the flow of battle, if only a little.

This mechanic would make the Miis more dynamic overall I feel, but let's go through some special moves. They will have to be both more general purpose and less so, strangely, in order to gel with this mechanic and encourage all 12 to be potentially used by Brawler players rather than just sticking to one set.

-----------------------------------------------------------

:GCB: Neutral-B 1: Shot Put:

  • Shot Put: Throws out a shot put diagonally that quickly drops downward and bounces off the stage once. Throw can be charged for higher height and higher bounce height. Can also be reversed on startup
    • Max charge duration is 1 second
      • Max height gained is up to highest Battlefield platform's height
    • Shot Put cannot be destroyed by projectile destruction
  • High startup
  • Average endlag
  • High shield damage
  • Average shieldstun
  • Knockback is upwards at 75 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Throw: 13.0%
    • Bounce: 7.5%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Throw: 195%
    • Bounce: 230%
-----------------------------------------------------------

You might quickly see what I meant about the specials having general purpose while also being more specialized. Shot Put now has a charge function that increases the height of the throw immensely, making it a great anti-air and potential kill move off the top of the screen. It also deals immense shield damage and can be reversed, making it a great shield punish option. However, it doesn't go as far horizontally, as it only bounces once and deals less damage.

I do this because this will most likely be the default Mii Brawler neutral-B solely due to the projectile, so the projectile itself is far weaker while also performing a potential function the Brawler doesn't have, that being a long range anti-air, which makes it more specialized. But at the same time, it's a projectile, so that alone makes it liable to be used generally.

-----------------------------------------------------------

:GCB: Neutral-B 2: Flashing Mach Punch:

  • Flashing Mach Punch: Brawler will pause and briefly punch in front of him 5 times in very quick succession. If an enemy is hit by these few punches, Mii Brawler will transition to a very quick 22 hit combo, finishing with a launching punch. Will ignore shields and counters. Brawler can control the direction of the enemy as he is punching them, thus launching them in the corresponding direction. When successfully hitting an enemy in the air, can also do the same for directions below Mii Brawler. Has far less knockback when in the air
    • Will stop all momentum when used in the air the first time
    • First 5 hits are long enough to catch spotdodges
    • Has full invincibility when successfully hit
  • Very high startup
  • High endlag
  • Very low priority
  • Knockback is variable depending on where enemy is in relation to Mii Brawler during final hit
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Total: 22.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Final hit (grounded): 125%
    • Final hit (aerial): 175%
-----------------------------------------------------------

So this is Brawler's counter to shields and counters in the most brute force way possible, essentially working as a very laggy and risky KO Punch. However, it's ability to catch spotdodges as well as go through shields and counters means the enemy will always be wary of your approaches and may respond in ways that are offensive in nature. This move works mostly as a threat against defensive measures and is terrible against offensive measures in general, as well as jumping. However, an extra power with this move is when successful in hitting the opponent, you get to choose which angle to launch them from. While the aerial one is weaker in knockback, you could potentially meteor smash someone with this. The stationary nature of it also makes it work wonders against airdodges.

Overall, this move's purpose is to destroy overly defensive and dodgy opponents while a general purpose trait is in its aerial stalling and airdodge read prowess and dynamic launch angle.

-----------------------------------------------------------

:GCB: Neutral-B 3: Exploding Side Kick:

  • Exploding Side Kick: Reels back with one leg on fire, and releases a kick forward. Can be reversed on startup. Can also shuffle left and right on startup using dodge buttons. Has super armor throughout the move. When the enemy is hit, will have damage over time put on them, dealing continuous damage and buffing Mii Brawler's attack damage on them temporarily
    • Shuffle can only take place before reversing the kick
    • Damage amplification is 30%
    • Damage over time lasts 8 seconds
  • Average startup
  • Average endlag
  • Transcendent priority
  • Very high DI deviation
  • Below average shield damage
  • Unsafe on shield
  • Knockback is at the Sakurai angle
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Kick: 18.0%
    • Damage over time: 0.5% per 0.5 seconds
    • Total: 26.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Kick: 185%
-----------------------------------------------------------

This move has been repurposed as an armoring move, as well as a read based move. It is much faster, about as fast as Mii Brawler's FSmash if a bit slower. However, it not only has armor, but can be "shuffled" before the kick, giving it fake out opportunity. Where it really shines however is when you get that read off. Not only does it still do great damage, but for a whopping 8 seconds, Brawler's damage will be buffed on the enemy immensely, giving him temporary boosted kill potential off one read, giving Brawler a lot of presence on the field. As a result of this repurpose, the kick itself is far worse at killing and has very high DI deviation meaning anyone paying even slight attention should not get killed easily. It's also unsafe on shields as to not meddle with Flashing Mach Punch's new purpose as a shield piercer. Even so, this move is faster, has more effective range, and bolsters a high amount of potential damage should you hit it. Not to mention the armor throughout the move rather than just the kick makes this move far safer overall.

-----------------------------------------------------------

:GCL::GCB::GCR: Side B 1: Onslaught

  • Onslaught: Dashes forward a fair distance knee first, destroying all projectiles along the way. If hitting an opponent, will do a quick barrage of punches and kicks before sending them flying with a backflip kick. Will weaken in damage when used before refreshing, even if it misses. If damage is taken, the next refreshed Onslaught use will be given higher damage and knockback. Can power up Onslaught up to ten times damage is taken. If used in the air, will be put into helpless fall after dash
    • Helpless fall will not occur if move hits while in the air
    • Dash forward is 2/3 the length of Final Destination
    • Being stale will reduce the speed of the dash by 35%
    • Refresh duration is 12 seconds
    • If using Change Style, damage taken buff will be retained
      • Damage taken buff will also be actively added while Onslaught is not the active Side-B move
  • Average startup
  • Very high endlag if dash forward misses
  • Extremely high priority
  • No shield damage
  • Very unsafe on shield
  • Knockback is upwards at 85 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Fresh: 15.8%
    • Stale: 10.0%
    • Damage taken buff: 2.5%
    • Maximum potential damage: 40.8%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Fresh: 170%
    • Stale: 250%
    • Maximum potential: 70%

-----------------------------------------------------------

This move has become the main sideways recovery move for Mii Brawler, and it has a few key changes to make it a very interest trump card of a move in Brawler's arsenal.

Firstly, recovery. The dash distance is MUCH longer, being in line with something like Quick Draw from Ike. This will make Mii Brawler helpless as usual in the air, but you now can get some distance to actually recover. In addition, it destroys all projectiles, making it great at closing distance on the ground and across platforms too.

Where the fun begins is the fact that the falsely advertised power buff from getting damaged for Onslaught is actually in this. Taking ten instances of damage will fill it, which isn't too difficult, especially against multihit moves and combo oriented characters who prey on Brawler's high fall speed. While the fresh move without damage taken is FAR weaker, at maximum damage taken it is far stronger in both kill power and damage.

And here in lies the crux of the issue. By being so deadly a move and no longer causing helplessness when hitting off stage, it heavily discourages people from challenging the recovery, giving Mii Brawler a nigh uncontestable recovery. At the same time, you will waste all damage taken buffs for that recovery and have to wait a hefty amount of time before getting an Onslaught that is able to get bonus damage from getting hurt, and thus Onslaught becomes far more contestable with the stale version's far lower speed.

In short, this is either a killer damage and kill option you always have in your pocket (doubled by the fact damage taken is counted even when Burning Dropkick or Suplex is in play) or an amazing horizontal recovery, but it can only be one or the other.

-----------------------------------------------------------

:GCL::GCB::GCR: Side B 2: Burning Dropkick:

  • Burning Dropkick: Brawler will do a full body dropkick engulfed in flames. If hitting an opponent or wall, will jump backwards similar to wall jump, regaining both first and second jumps. Has high hitstun on hit and briefly gives damage over time to enemy on hit. Can cancel any normal move into Burning Dropkick on hit in either direction. Can angle dropkick slightly on startup
    • Dropkick angle can be aimed up and down at a deviation of about 45 degrees in both directions
    • Damage over time lasts 2.5 seconds
    • Dropkick's aerial movement is about 3/4 on a Battlefield platform
    • Dropkick's hitbox lingers while losing altitude
  • Below average startup
  • High endlag on miss
  • Average landing lag
  • Very low priority
  • Extremely high hitstun
  • Extremely high DI deviation
  • Below average shield damage
  • Barely unsafe on shield
  • Knockback is upwards at 45 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Dropkick: 10.0%
    • Damage over time: 0.5% per 0.5 seconds
    • Total: 12.5%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Dropkick: 165%

-----------------------------------------------------------

So this one, like Flashing Mach Punch, is definitely out there in concept. It is the first special move where cancelling from normal moves is a feature specifically for it, rather than the character as a whole cancelling into specials like Ryu and Ken. The dropkick itself is rather short range and can be easily contested in the air and drops for quite some time, making it the worst of the three Side-B moves for recovery.

However, it can be angled by quite a wide margin, making its use as a combo extender valuable for many moves at lower percents. This is because when hit, the hitstun is immense, and both jumps are restored for Mii Brawler, making it an easy prospect to reach the flying enemy before they can react. At low enough percents, this high amount of hitstun can be used to set up a tech chase, while at higher percents where this move will no longer just combo into its cancelled moves quite as easily, it can be used to kill should you get the DI read on your hit right.

The big weakness is that when hitting shields, you aren't totally safe as the enemy will be active before you by just a small amount, allowing them to easily catch your jump attempt. And on miss, well it just sucks. A cool thing to do on cancel is to Dropkick away from an enemy either to increase distance for a chance to Change Style safely, or to quickly recover back to stage after an edgeguard attempt.

-----------------------------------------------------------

:GCL::GCB::GCR: Side B 3: Suplex

  • Suplex: Dashes forward a short distance with a command grab. If successful, will grab the opponent and jump upwards slightly and suplex them downward, dealing damage. Can control angle of short dash as well as direction of Suplex. Will grab through intangibility
    • Angle of dash can be done up and down at a max angle of 35 degrees in both directions
    • Suplexing off stage will kill the Mii Brawler first
    • Dash distance is about a Battlefield platform length
    • (Will not be helpless afterwards)
  • Above average startup
  • Average endlag if dash grab misses
  • Knockback is upwards at 75 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers: 19.8%
  • Approximate kill time: 400%

-----------------------------------------------------------

So a couple of key changes to this move to make it more applicable as a very special command grab to differ it from its Side-B counterparts. First big change is that the dash forward can be done at an angle, allowing for Suplex to be used for jump reads as well as a niche landing option when done downwards. Second is that missing the grab doesn't cause helpless, giving it some brief ascent for recovery. Thirdly, the Suplex direction can be chosen, making it better at Brawlercide (though it still is against Mii Brawler's favor on last stocks). Lastly, and most importantly, it ignores intangibility.

This solidifies a sort of bizarro CQC role with Brawler as Flashing Mach Punch, Burning Dropkick, and this defy the general rules of Smash Bros defense and offense. Suplex can catch techs at any time, making the best answer against it to simply attack through it since attacks beat grabs. Not much else changes when the grab is gotten though. Just a small damage buff.

-----------------------------------------------------------

:GCU::GCB::GCB:Up-B 1: Soaring Axe Kick:

  • Soaring Axe Kick: Brawler ascends with a backflip, hitting opponents slightly. Pressing again sends the Brawler downward with an axe kick, causing a meteor smash. Will go into helplessness if second kick is not activated. Can slightly angle the kicks sideways
    • Deviation on sideways angle is about 10 degrees in both directions
  • Average startup
  • Above average endlag on second kick landing
  • Average landing lag
  • Low priority
  • Average shield damage
  • Unsafe on shield for both hits
  • Pushes back shielded opponents slightly on landing
  • Knockback for first hit is upwards at 85 degrees
    • Knockback for second hit is a meteor smash at 270 degrees
    • Knockback for landing hit is sideways at 40 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • First kick: 4.0%
    • Second kick: 4.0%
    • Landing: 3.0%
    • Total: 11.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Second kick: 180%
    • Landing: 200%

-----------------------------------------------------------

Something about the Up-B moves is that can kinda work in the same ways as is, but they are all recoveries, so I don't wish to change them too much. Soaring Axe Kick is definitely the least changed. It's still the best recovery move in terms of height and still is generally just as good at shield pressure and killing in that it is only marginally good at both. It does however push back shielded enemies, making a bit safer if you land, but worse if the enemy whiff punishes instead. And the meteor smash is great against ledge trapper opponents as well as ledge trapping to boot similar to Chrom's Up-B.

The downsides compared to its alternatives mostly stems from it having the highest startup with the lowest priority, making it the least safe of the recovery moves in terms of being challenged in the air as well as the worst OOS option of the three. It also deals the least damage. This relegates it more to utility and cheeky edge guarding attempts and Brawlercides as well as stopping ledge trapping. And of course, the first kick alone gives little landing lag, making it an actual fake out purpose for landing on platforms.

-----------------------------------------------------------

:GCU::GCB: Up-B 2: Helicopter Kick:

  • Helicopter Kick: Brawler will spin kick repeatedly while ascending diagonally, catching any enemies and doing high damage and knockback on the finally kick. Will enter helpless afterwards. Can be slightly controlled during ascent
    • Has slightly more height when used from the ground
  • Very long lingering hitbox
  • Below average startup
  • High landing lag
  • High priority
  • Average shield damage
  • Barely unsafe on shield
  • Knockback on final hit is sideways at 30 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Multihit: 1.9% * 7
    • Final hit: 6.0%
    • Total: 19.3%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Final hit: 120%

-----------------------------------------------------------

So not really much change to this move in general. However, it would definitely have a longer hitbox in order to give it a niche of platform harasser out of the three Up-B moves. It also has the most standard kill potential, but of course Soaring Axe Kick can always gimp due to its meteor smash, so it's less of an upside. The main thing is that you can control the diagonal ascent a little better, again letting the use of the lingering hitbox be the main part of having this over its two alternatives.

The downsides are the same in that it has a high amount of landing lag and the lowest height of all three. However, due to its lingering nature, it is good at damaging shields and if you happen to get the height just right to land right after your shield hits, the high landing lag doesn't matter too much due to the immense shieldstun, solidifying this as the Up-B to use for platforms.

-----------------------------------------------------------

:GCU::GCB: Up-B 3: Thrust Uppercut:

  • Thrust Uppercut: Quickly does a forceful uppercut diagonally upwards, ascending to maximum height almost immediately. If hitting the opponent, will do a multihit combo while ascending. Can slightly angle the trajectory more diagonally at the cost of vertical height. If used on the ground, if successfully hit, does not cause helplessness. Will cause helplessness in the air regardless of hit or not
    • Has invincibility on startup
    • Hitting shield does not count as a successful hit
  • Very low startup
  • Above average landing lag
  • High priority
  • Low shield damage
  • Very unsafe on shield
  • Knockback is upwards at 75 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Multihit: 2.0% * 4
    • Final hit: 5.0%
    • Total: 13.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Final hit: 300%

-----------------------------------------------------------

Welcome to the newest Up-B in the arsenal. I wanted to change it up slightly to make it more combo oriented, so now if it hits and you are on the ground, you will not helpless fall, making it great to start aerial combos. In addition, it also has invincibility on startup, making it the DP of Brawler's arsenal, which is great for retaliation purposes and OOS. But like most DPs, it is trash against shields, so avoid those if you can.

Some extra changes are that it immediately reaches max height and has high priority, making it less risky a recovery option compared to Soaring Axe Kick should the enemy be actively gimping you. The height is still only average compared to the three Up-B's, so take it for what it can get.

-----------------------------------------------------------

:GCD::GCB: Down-B 1: Head-On Assault:

  • Head-On Assault: Quickly flip kicks and does a headfirst straight dive downward. When used in the air, flipkick portion is skipped. Brawler will drag any enemies caught down with them, and bury the opponent and nearby opponents on landing with the shockwave. Can very slightly control trajectory during dive
    • Suicide kills opponent first
    • Trajectory on dive is about 10 degrees in both directions
    • Landing shockwave hits three times
    • Landing shockwave is about 2 Brawler widths in diameter
    • Bury duration is minimum 2 seconds and maximum 4 seconds
      • Bury increases the more percent the opponent has
    • Bury causes 50% less knockback
  • Extremely low startup on flipkick
    • High startup on dive
  • High landing lag
  • High priority
  • Very high shield damage
  • Safe on shield
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Flipkick: 2.5%
    • Dive: 0.6% per 0.2 seconds
    • Landing: 2.0% * 3
-----------------------------------------------------------

So this is more a combination of both the Ultimate and Smash 4 versions of the move. It both drags down during the dive and buries opponents, meaning it is the only burial move that can technically bury aerial opponents, giving it a great niche. Plus, the bury is pretty long, making it easy to follow. The bury gives half knockback though, making it better for comboing or damage racking rather than killing. However, you can still Brawlercide like in Ultimate and you will win that exchange, so there's that.

The main downsides are still here, mainly being the horrendous lag on landing. However, it is augmented by heavy shield damage and being safe on shield should your opponent not choose to dodge. In addition, you can slightly control your descent. The last big thing is the flipkick on the ground is a great OOS option, so using it for that is great too.

Overall, this is far more improved in terms of things it can do, making it actually pretty good at landing, burying, OOS, shield breaking, and suiciding. Still a risky move due to lag, but its many utilities make up for it now I think.

-----------------------------------------------------------

:GCD::GCB: Down-B 2: Feint Jump:

  • Feint Jump: Brawler will do a flipping jump briefly which can be directed and have distance adjusted. If hitting the button again, Brawler will do a diagonal kick, dealing minor damage and knockback. This kick can be directed in four directions. Has invincibility throughout the flipping jump
    • Flipping jump lasts for about 1.2 seconds before followup kick cannot be done
    • Flipping jump max distance is about a Battlefield platform length
    • Kick distance is about Battlefield platform length
  • Extremely low startup on flip jump
    • Average startup on kick
  • Average endlag on kick
  • Low landing lag when not kicking
    • Low landing lag on kick
  • Below average priority on kick
  • Below average shield damage
  • Unsafe on shield
  • Knockback on kick is at the Sakurai angle
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Kick: 10.0%
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Kick: 200%

-----------------------------------------------------------

Like a lot of moves here, something gets removed to emphasize an already existing strength, but firstly, something new. Now the kick can be angled upwards in both diagonal directions, making it far better as the retaliatory strike it's supposed to be, as well as a bit better at recovering low. The general distance is lower though due to the newfound flipping jump.

Now to what is taken away. The meteor smash of the flip jump is gone in exchange for invincibility the whole way through. This allows Feint Jump to be used preemptively against many rushdown attempts due to both the high amount of invincibility for a long period of time, as well as the ability to end it any time with a kick that, while not super fast, goes quite a bit of distance and can lead into combos thanks to its lower landing lag and upwards angles.

The main problem is against shields. Do not kick if you do not read the enemy correctly, or do, but away from them. Sadly, they can follow you do to it not being the fast kick ever. It also is just unsafe on shield. Use this as a countering move and general movement option more often than not. However, if you read the shield and don't kick, the lower landing lag on the flip jump makes you less punishable, if only by a bit.

-----------------------------------------------------------

:GCD::GCB: Down-B 3: Counter Throw:

  • Counter Throw: Will attempt to counter. If successful, will proceed to throw the opponent in the designated direction of the control stick, dealing damage to the enemy. Cannot counter projectiles. Successful countering will damage Brawler for the same amount of damage as the countered move
    • If countered opponent is not within throw range, endlag heavily decreases
    • Throw choices:
      • Forward: A disarming style axe handle followed by a single punch chest blow
      • Back: Throws the enemy downward towards the floor behind Brawler
      • Up: Handles the enemy in one hand and uppercuts them
      • Down: Throws down the opponent and elbow slams them, knocking them away
  • Extremely low startup
  • Low counter frames
  • Low endlag
  • Extremely low endlag against disjoints
  • Knockback angles:
    • Forward: Sakurai angle
    • Back: 40 degrees
    • Up: 85 degrees
    • Down: 60 degrees
  • Approximate damage numbers:
    • Damage multiplier: 1x
    • Self damage: Same as reflected move
  • Approximate kill times:
    • Forward base: 120%
    • Back base: 140%
    • Up: 115%
    • Down: 180%

-----------------------------------------------------------

This counter move that becomes a throw is the first of its kind, and it intrigued me. I decided to make it like traditional throws and give some throw options when it hits, as well as being a counter to disjoints, giving Brawler some positive frames against them should he counter them successfully.

First thing to note is that because of the nature of countering moves, picking each of the four throws requires a lot of game sense to get the one you want. Do you want the back throw for stage control at the expense of killing, or the forward throw for some higher kill power, but less stage control in a sense? Up throw is the kill throw, but sometimes, depending on the damage of the countered move, as well as placement, it may be better to forward throw them. And of course you have the combo ability of down throw, though it doesn't last as long as traditional down throws. I think this dynamic of having different damage and thus different stats to think about for how useful these throws will be is a good idea to test Brawler players about situational awareness.

The one downside added is that there is no damage multiplier anymore, and it also damages Brawler for the same amount as the countered move should you successfully counter. This is to add some downside to being able to go positive on disjoints now, as well as to not try and be cheeky with this move unless you know which throws to go for.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Finally finished. Sorry about that, wanted to get ahead on other character ideas... plus college.
 
Last edited:

Shieldlesscap

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
139
#2
Er, the switching part doesn't really fix the fundamental issue with Mii Brawler.

That and I feel like it requires some things to be arbitrarily nerfed for the sake of giving things a reason to be used. Shot Put imo is fine as is and this idea just makes it worse (lowering the damage for the sake of added versatility would remove its niche as a read dependent move that can edgeguard and ledge trap, you made it easier to hit while removing most of the reason to hit it in the first place) for the sake of making other specials that I wasn't going to use anyway more useful.

That was just an example since you didn't touch any of the moves I actually use. I kinda like some of the ideas, and it certainly would make a character more dynamic, but what Mii Brawler needs to actually be balanced rn is better normals. Not a complete overhaul of the specials while also removing the entire point of them being customizable.

With that said, here's what I'd do:

1. Leave Shot Put as is, but make it reversible during the startup, and lower the endlag by a bit but not much. Just enough that Shot Put off ledge is possible to recover from.
2. Lower the endlag on Up Air so it's better for combos. This change alone makes Mii Brawler significantly better since he can build up damage more easily.
3. Make the first hit of Fair set knockback rather than just very little kbg.
4. Increase the knockback on FTilt a bit so it's slightly better at zoning.
5. Onslaught activates on shield.
6. Onslaught doesn't put you into free fall if it hits.
7. Feint Jump has less landing lag.
8. Lower KBG on DTilt so you can confirm into Fair for longer.

Idk how I'd change the other specials, and I think the rest of his normals are fine as is.
 
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
558
#3
Er, the switching part doesn't really fix the fundamental issue with Mii Brawler.

That and I feel like it requires some things to be arbitrarily nerfed for the sake of giving things a reason to be used. Shot Put imo is fine as is and this idea just makes it worse (lowering the damage for the sake of added versatility would remove its niche as a read dependent move that can edgeguard and ledge trap, you made it easier to hit while removing most of the reason to hit it in the first place) for the sake of making other specials that I wasn't going to use anyway more useful.

That was just an example since you didn't touch any of the moves I actually use. I kinda like some of the ideas, and it certainly would make a character more dynamic, but what Mii Brawler needs to actually be balanced rn is better normals. Not a complete overhaul of the specials while also removing the entire point of them being customizable.


While I do sometimes get into balance things with the characters I'm talking about, I rarely do it with these mini threads. This is mostly to share very isolated ideas for characters I have, rather than fully analyze the best stats for each character's moves to make them a fully complete concept/playstyle/feel like I do with the full rebalance threads.

That being said, yes, I do think Mii Brawler needs better normals in some places, but the concept of having 12 different special moves at any time, 8 more moves than most characters, can make for a very swiss army knife style of fighter that I think Mii Brawler can work with. I don't think it will fix the present issues plaguing the character, but I do think this concept can help with some.

And yes, some moves will be nerfed in some ways to compensate for being shared with others, but all will have a purpose of some kind, and the customization thing is not really a factor in this particular case. Plus, even with the custom move system, if one choice is better than the others, while the other choices aren't absolute trash, it should be nerfed to fit with the alternatives anyway.

The point I'm making here is that these mini rebalance threads are more for spitting out weird ideas rather than an analysis and "fix" of the character.

Let me go through your list real quick too, because why not?

With that said, here's what I'd do:

1. Leave Shot Put as is, but make it reversible during the startup, and lower the endlag by a bit but not much. Just enough that Shot Put off ledge is possible to recover from.
I know you just said to not nerf things, but I did in fact buff Shot Put to do just that AND charge up for a higher throw. The only real nerfs were in horizontal distance of bounces and damage output, which are not dealbreakers.

2. Lower the endlag on Up Air so it's better for combos. This change alone makes Mii Brawler significantly better since he can build up damage more easily.
I can agree with that. Brawler should be a bit combo oriented. Can also work as a sharking tool. I've always seen Brawler as the all rounder similar to Mario in terms of close quarter combatants of the roster, so having it be multipurpose is a good idea.

3. Make the first hit of Fair set knockback rather than just very little kbg.
I honestly don't bring this sort of stuff up in my rebalance threads because this kinda goes without saying. If you have a multihit move, all hits should link with each other anyway.

4. Increase the knockback on FTilt a bit so it's slightly better at zoning.
I guess. Does Brawler really not have a quick get off me that sends the enemy back far enough? Does he want them to be sent far?

5. Onslaught activates on shield.
6. Onslaught doesn't put you into free fall if it hits.
Funny enough, these were two main changes I was gonna make to Onslaught. Still sketchy on the activation on shield though, since both Side-Bs are already alright on shield or just go through it, so I feel one Side-B without good shield pressure is fine. The helpless on hit in the air does need to go.

7. Feint Jump has less landing lag.
This was another change I was planning on doing lol.

8. Lower KBG on DTilt so you can confirm into Fair for longer.
Fair enough. DTilt definitely needs to be a good combo starter.
 

Shieldlesscap

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
139
#4
Fair enough, I just wasn't sure cuz you mentioned this being a rebalance thread, so I figured you were trying to do that. I actually think the concept is interesting, I just don't think it's worth overcomplicating the moveset and don't want to rework some things too much.

I feel like it'd be better to buff the other move to be even rather than nerf, personally.

As for Shot Put, the main problem that I had was just that if you're cutting the damage of Shot Put, you're taking away its main niche imo. Personally I use it to edgeguard and if it did less damage it wouldn't be able to do that nearly as well.

Thing about Fair 1 is that it still does link, it's just that since it isn't set knockback, if you land with it and don't do the second hit, you can't always combo it into DTilt.

Mii Brawler already has some stuff for it, but he doesn't have anything that works at midrange unless you want to zone with Shot Put.

Alright well at the very least, Onslaught shouldn't be as unsafe on shield as it is rn.
 

mrguy321

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 19, 2019
Messages
18
#5
i like your point. he needs less lag on his normals (and a bit more range on them as well). however, his specials force him into a specific moveset because of how linear his recovery is, so they also need a lot of changes. check out my rework thread and tell me what you think.
Er, the switching part doesn't really fix the fundamental issue with Mii Brawler.

That and I feel like it requires some things to be arbitrarily nerfed for the sake of giving things a reason to be used. Shot Put imo is fine as is and this idea just makes it worse (lowering the damage for the sake of added versatility would remove its niche as a read dependent move that can edgeguard and ledge trap, you made it easier to hit while removing most of the reason to hit it in the first place) for the sake of making other specials that I wasn't going to use anyway more useful.

That was just an example since you didn't touch any of the moves I actually use. I kinda like some of the ideas, and it certainly would make a character more dynamic, but what Mii Brawler needs to actually be balanced rn is better normals. Not a complete overhaul of the specials while also removing the entire point of them being customizable.

With that said, here's what I'd do:

1. Leave Shot Put as is, but make it reversible during the startup, and lower the endlag by a bit but not much. Just enough that Shot Put off ledge is possible to recover from.
2. Lower the endlag on Up Air so it's better for combos. This change alone makes Mii Brawler significantly better since he can build up damage more easily.
3. Make the first hit of Fair set knockback rather than just very little kbg.
4. Increase the knockback on FTilt a bit so it's slightly better at zoning.
5. Onslaught activates on shield.
6. Onslaught doesn't put you into free fall if it hits.
7. Feint Jump has less landing lag.
8. Lower KBG on DTilt so you can confirm into Fair for longer.

Idk how I'd change the other specials, and I think the rest of his normals are fine as is.
 
Top