Midnight Ops Mafia: Game Thread. Game Over!

[UtopianPoyzin]

Vote Count 1.03

[2] Chaco: BoomFrog, LaserGuy
[2] BoomFrog: Raxxel, Chaco
[2] LaserGuy: Xivii, NonSpecificGuy
[1] Trisscar: Jackrito
[1] Xivii: Somitomi

Not voting: 3DSNinja, Trisscar, Fontisian, #HBC | FrozenFlame, Darkpit54

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to hammer.

Day 1 ends on July 4th at 8 PM EST.​

 

[BoomFrog]

]QUOTE="Darkpit54, post: 23993073, member: 350184"]Could you explain why you feel this way? Who would you say are the other top 2 dangerous players atm?[/QUOTE]
I was adding to Xivii's original list. The other dangerous players are myself and fontisian. I'm not personally sure Fontisian deserves to be in that list, but I trust Xivii's assessment of last game. So it's this little self referential circle of respect/suspicion.

 

[BoomFrog]

Can you provide an example of town!Laser picking at similar points? Because to the contrary. LaserGuy has shown to be cognizant of newbie behaviors and their tendency to be lynched for things such as what he is pushing NSG for

No, new BoomFrog doesn't look up references to old games, that takes too much time. Besides it'd be in xkcd. Yes I did consider last game as you quoted, but I've seen him go the other way too.

There are many features of my play here which would be difficult to fake as scum.

As there were last game, so difficult, yes, but provably within your capabilities. Which you know, so you have no justification to claim I'm being unreasonable. You snowed everyone last game and as mafia got a perfect win. The reward is a very high bar to prove towniness in the future. You know that.

That is a wall of text that is not capable of coming from scum this early in the game. Why on earth would scum put so much effort?

This was cute when it was just Xivii antics, but all these self-town reads are nonsense. But you seem to be sincere and are using them to strengthen a scum read of me? Something doesn't compute. My most generous read is you are trying to get a reaction from me. I'll have to think about the "confront BoomFrog D1" dilemma. If you are scum again you are definitely sweating bullets.

 

[BoomFrog]

Chaco You've been paying a lot and I don't have time today to keep up. I'm going to bed. I feel like you contradicted yourself early on, but I'll reread tomorrow and lay out the details and we can hash it out.

P.S. please proofread more when posting. Your typos are making you hard to follow sometimes.

 

[BoomFrog]

Trisscar What do you think of Chaco's reaction to my vote on him? Or on Xivii's case against Laser and me?

 

[BoomFrog]

@Everyone: 3ds has played twice, lynched n1 once and shot N1 by town once. So his attitude is understandable and frankly probably coming from town.

3 3DS not posting is going to get you near the bottom of everyone's lists. Participating should increase your chances of living.

 

[BoomFrog]

3DSNinja ---^

 

[fontisian]

Boomfrog is right 3DSNinja . You weren't the intended shot from the scumteam last game, so trying to avoid the spotlight to not get shot isn't necessary.

Boom, Laser, can we talk about why you two are voting for Chaco? Does the original reasoning about him looking at things from a mafiaish perspective still apply, or has the read changed?

 

[fontisian]

Jackrito Can you link me to your most recent scum game?

 

[fontisian]

I can read Xivii, I just have to give him zero credit for emotional outbursts.

Vote Chaco

Overly defensive about lurking, and votes the one guy who is participating most, which is maximizing the jokeness of the vote and minimizing the chance to start scum hunting.

Ah, I was thinking about the NSG vote reasoning, not the Chaco one, sorry.

LaserGuy I'm guessing you agree with all this, but what did you think of Chaco's response in #48?

 

[LaserGuy]

LaserGuy

Fact: LaserGuy is a player that thinks deeply about motivations and intent. He also is cognizant of certain newbie behaviors that cause them to be incorrectly scum read, and has voiced being against pushing them for such behaviors.

LaserGuy is one of the strongest town players and thinks layers deep.

While I'm kind of flattered by your compliments of my play, I also don't think this is a particularly accurate characterization. The only features of my Town play that I think are particularly noteworthy is that I can usually draw the NK if I want to, and I can usually avoid getting mislynched and get deep into a game. But my read accuracy is typically fairly middling, if not poor and I don't have the charisma of someone like Ran to completely dominate a game and force scum to actively work around me. Sumting Sumting mafia was a rare exception where I actually had a good Town game overall.

The nature of his push here, however, is surface-level. It is similar in nature to his push on Sabrar in Oasis here.

I feel that there's some context here that you're ignoring. You're looking at this game's post #22 where there is virtually no content. Of course it is surface level. The push you're comparing it to was 60+ pages deep into a game where I was trying to emulate being in a lynch scramble faced with two wagons that I thought were both probably bad, but I didn't have the time or energy to actually be able to motivate it properly.

Fact: LaserGuy is pushing a newbie player for a statement that is very likely to come from a newbie. It is also a statement that would be absurd for scum to state in public even if they did believe it.

This is IMHO where the main problem in your whole argument lies. I don't consider a POV slip to be a newbie behaviour. It's one of the few/only reliable slips that I have ever seen strong mafia players, including you (see post 150/152) make on occasion and Town players very, very, rarely do. This early in the game with a newish player is probably one of the few situations where it is not particularly reliable, but it's good enough for a scum lean on page 1.

Fact: LaserGuy has not asked any questions from anyone else with regard to NSG.

If you mean questions like "Hey BoomFrog, what do you think of my point on NSG?", I'm really struggling to think of a situation where I would actually do this. It just isn't how I tend to approach getting information from people. I prefer to see what people choose to react to voluntarily and what they choose to ignore.

I don't know if there's really any point in me addressing the associative reads since your main premise is flawed. There are a few observations in there that I'm going to file away as potentially useful, though.

I do now believe you're likely Town though.

fontisian : I see your question but I'll have to get to it tomorrow.

 

[Trisscar]

Is the past tense of flow the same as the past tense of fly?

Flowed, is I believe the past tense of the flow of a river or what have you.

Trisscar What do you think of Chaco's reaction to my vote on him? Or on Xivii's case against Laser and me?

Mmmm.... Reactionary frustration. Not sure how genuine or for what reason.
Xivii's nonsense is amusing me. Interested to see where it leads.

 

[somitomi]

Before I forget:
Unvote
I have to say, Xivii's explicit "look at me, I'm so town" remarks are mildly concerning. I'm not sure what mafia would hope to achieve with this, but good wine needs no bush.

Town Core
Xivii
Trisscar
Fontisian
Jackrito
Somitomi

Not that I object to it, but why did you put me in your town core?

Assertion: BoomFrog has all of the experiences and capability necessary to have come to the same conclusion that I have on LaserGuy. Therefore, if BoomFrog was town, he would have the same suspicions of LaserGuy as I do.

I disagree with the notion, that two experienced people should necessarily come to the same conclusions or have the same suspicions or that the only explanation for this alleged discrepancy is that one of them is not town. It is entirely possible even for experienced town to be wrong.

I understand your argument for LaserGuy and it makes a ton of sense, but I'm confused by the part about NSG. Wouldn't LaserGuy have more incentive to push NSG if he were townie, to cause a mislynch? Please let me know if I'm missing something though.

I could see mafia pushing each other a little as a smokescreen tactic and whoever survives longer might gain some town-cred after a flip. It's a risky strategy though, as you need to pull off a case that isn't convincing enough to get everyone on the wagon, but not so weak that you get scumread for it.

 

[Chaco]

Chaco You've been paying a lot and I don't have time today to keep up. I'm going to bed. I feel like you contradicted yourself early on, but I'll reread tomorrow and lay out the details and we can hash it out.

P.S. please proofread more when posting. Your typos are making you hard to follow sometimes.

By all means, cause I’m interested to see the thought process.

And yeah I’m using my phone so it’s hard to catch em all, sorry. Especially when I get to typing fast.

 

[Chaco]

Flowed, is I believe the past tense of the flow of a river or what have you.



Mmmm.... Reactionary frustration. Not sure how genuine or for what reason.
Xivii's nonsense is amusing me. Interested to see where it leads.

I can tell you because it was in reaction to my vote on Xiivi, and then he later came back and distanced from him, and now He is on Xivii’s scum list for a reason I wouldn’t have pinged him for either.

You have to look at it how I do, I know my alignment, I’m playing with players I have NO IDEA how they play. When I see something that is remotely odd, I’m going to attack it, because I have no priors for basis.

Same with Xivii, culture now might be joke around and do stuff like that. But when I was playing a lot, we didn’t do that. Only select people did and it was very well known of them. Which is why I initially targeted Xivii.

Trisscar give me a scum team of 3 and why?

 

[Chaco]

I could see mafia pushing each other a little as a smokescreen tactic and whoever survives longer might gain some town-cred after a flip. It's a risky strategy though, as you need to pull off a case that isn't convincing enough to get everyone on the wagon, but not so weak that you get scumread for it.

You mean kindve like Xivii’s WoT with little actual reasoning?

If BoomFrog is scum, then so is Xivii.

And I agree his I’m so town look at me is borderline AtE or just more antics. But I think it’s funny how quickly NSG voted BoomFrog after Xivii’s case, and BoomFrog and Xivii are on “opposite” ends now.

 

[LaserGuy]

Is anyone else having a lot of trouble connecting to the site today? I keep having the page drop or getting bad gateway errors.

Boomfrog is right 3DSNinja . You weren't the intended shot from the scumteam last game, so trying to avoid the spotlight to not get shot isn't necessary.

Boom, Laser, can we talk about why you two are voting for Chaco? Does the original reasoning about him looking at things from a mafiaish perspective still apply, or has the read changed?

Looking back, I like a lot of Chaco's more recent content. There's a sort of wildness about their posting that I find hard to evaluate tonally, but their process looks genuine to me. I think I'll probably move them up to a Town lean right now.

Chaco , do you prefer male or female pronouns.

Unvote

And I agree his I’m so town look at me is borderline AtE or just more antics. But I think it’s funny how quickly NSG voted BoomFrog after Xivii’s case, and BoomFrog and Xivii are on “opposite” ends now.

NSG actually voted for me, not BoomFrog.

Xivii's nonsense is amusing me. Interested to see where it leads.

Why does Xivii's case come across as nonsense to you? Do you think he isn't being genuine?

I'm not posting much becasue I want more time and I don't want to die D1/N1.

Intentionally avoiding contributing is the kind of thing that ends up with you getting policy lynched. Even if you survive D1/N1 in this manner, it's not going to make subsequent days any easier because people will still have no read on you and your behaviour will have looked very suspicious.


Leaning Town on fonti and somitomi.

 

[Chaco]

LaserGuy My fault. It’s hard to keep up with names when you don’t know anyone. Especially when trying to multi page from an IPhone.

And male pronouns, Im a dude.

No trouble connecting btw.

 

[Trisscar]

You have to look at it how I do, I know my alignment, I’m playing with players I have NO IDEA how they play. When I see something that is remotely odd, I’m going to attack it, because I have no priors for basis.

Same with Xivii, culture now might be joke around and do stuff like that. But when I was playing a lot, we didn’t do that. Only select people did and it was very well known of them. Which is why I initially targeted Xivii.

Trisscar give me a scum team of 3 and why?

Mmm, disagree on your method for the first bit. Being aggro is just going to get people to not like your methods and scum read you more.

I'd prefer if people joked around a bit more at the very beginning personally, it sets a tone of lightheartedness and fun that is harder to subvert throughout the game and makes it less likely to turn toxic or otherwise awful.

Not enough data or interactions, ask me again later please.

Is anyone else having a lot of trouble connecting to the site today? I keep having the page drop or getting bad gateway errors.

Why does Xivii's case come across as nonsense to you? Do you think he isn't being genuine?

Intentionally avoiding contributing is the kind of thing that ends up with you getting policy lynched. Even if you survive D1/N1 in this manner, it's not going to make subsequent days any easier because people will still have no read on you and your behaviour will have looked very suspicious.

Yep. Hope the server is okay.

Not sure. Xivii had some interesting plays when I went up against them as scum previously. Need more data.

To some degree this. Also it makes it look like you're a Power Role attempting to hide potentially. Would suggest at least some participation as a general rule, since hiding in obscurity works better than being completely AWOL in my experience. However it is your slot and your plans, you do you mate.

 

[fontisian]

Looking back, I like a lot of Chaco's more recent content. There's a sort of wildness about their posting that I find hard to evaluate tonally, but their process looks genuine to me. I think I'll probably move them up to a Town lean right now.

Chaco , do you prefer male or female pronouns.

Unvote

Cool, I agree, and would place Chaco as a strong townlean with Xivii. I was a bit concerned about you still voting there earlier. Worth noting that I think that concern would have been fairly obvious to scum!you, so you while you backing off here is good, it's not that compelling of a reason to townread you.

Why are you townreading me and somi?

Trisscar Could you elaborate more on what you mean by interesting plays from Xivii and how that meta knowledge of them applies here?

 

[Chaco]

Mmm, disagree on your method for the first bit. Being aggro is just going to get people to not like your methods and scum read you more.

I'd prefer if people joked around a bit more at the very beginning personally, it sets a tone of lightheartedness and fun that is harder to subvert throughout the game and makes it less likely to turn toxic or otherwise awful.

Not enough data or interactions, ask me again later please.



Yep. Hope the server is okay.

Not sure. Xivii had some interesting plays when I went up against them as scum previously. Need more data.

To some degree this. Also it makes it look like you're a Power Role attempting to hide potentially. Would suggest at least some participation as a general rule, since hiding in obscurity works better than being completely AWOL in my experience. However it is your slot and your plans, you do you mate.

Yeah I can be a bit abrasive, but hey, it worked for me. You’ll have to form your own opinions of how I play til after this game though lol, cause I don’t wanna out how I scumhunt with people that don’t know. That’s my biggest weapon.

 

[fontisian]

I’ve played a couple games. I know there’s always specific town roles people want to find out first too. Like the “cop” or investigator for example.

Going back a bit, I think this is the kind of thing newbie!NonSpecificGuy says if he isn't scum, because as scum he would be painfully aware that he's supposed to be looking for the investigator roles and aware that he shouldn't let town know he's trying to do it. Basically, it's the kind of he posts as town because he in the moment he doesn't get how bad it looks.

So, yeah, I'm not fond of how Laser responded to this either (by asking about NSG's experience, and then voting), though I don't think it's particularly damning as an initial reaction versus this read being something I've been mulling over for a day.

 

[fontisian]

Yeah I can be a bit abrasive, but hey, it worked for me. You’ll have to form your own opinions of how I play til after this game though lol, cause I don’t wanna out how I scumhunt with people that don’t know. That’s my biggest weapon.

Lol.

Aight, I'll just mark you down as the towniest town to ever town.

 

[fontisian]

I don't think making an argument for Xivii being town would beneficial at this point in time (mainly because if he is scum, I don't want him to have insight into how I'm reading him just yet), but I do have one if anyone feels like it would help them solve later.

 

[Trisscar]

Trisscar Could you elaborate more on what you mean by interesting plays from Xivii and how that meta knowledge of them applies here?

Mmmm...
Some of their logic is nonsense, they're drawing a lot of info for early D1, and they're experienced as a scum player. These do not match. Makes me think a plan is involved.

 

[Chaco]

Lol.

Aight, I'll just mark you down as the towniest town to ever town.

I dig it.

 

[Chaco]

Trisscar so basically you’re saying Xivii is saying a lot without saying anything?

 

[Trisscar]

Not exactly, no.

 

[fontisian]

Not exactly, no.

Is there a reason your language is more truncated than usual? You seem to be holding back.

 

[LaserGuy]

Why are you townreading me and somi?

Your play feels very natural and logical. You're obviously spending a lot of time thinking about and analysing the thread. I don't have any specific towntells on you, but you tick the boxes of all the things that I look for in good Town. I'm aware that everything you've done so far is probably within your scum range based on what I saw in Sumting Sumting, so I can't give you more than a Town lean without more information. On the other hand, I also don't want to put too much stock in using that game for meta on you due to other issues I had with your slot unrelated to your play.

somitomi is mostly a meta read. I've played with him a fair bit on xkcd before. As Town he's usually very cautious in making reads and evaluations of people, but this shouldn't be taken as a sign of scumminess, especially not this early in the game. It takes him some time to figure things out. He tends to struggle a lot more as mafia and is usually quite transparent.

Not sure. Xivii had some interesting plays when I went up against them as scum previously. Need more data.

Okay, I'm going to need you to be more specific here. In reply to BoomFrog's #125, you said Xivii's case was "nonsense". Can you explain what you meant by this?

 

[Chaco]

Not exactly, no.

Elaborate?

 

[Trisscar]

Is there a reason your language is more truncated than usual? You seem to be holding back.

Elaborate?

Okay, I'm going to need you to be more specific here. In reply to BoomFrog's #125, you said Xivii's case was "nonsense". Can you explain what you meant by this?

I dislike potentially spoiling a plan in progress when I am not sure where it leads.

Significant amounts of reads on a few posts is what is nonsense to me, especially since half of said posts were very much early D1 jokes or answering what people thought of previous games of each other. Sudden reads lists is not what I remember from a previous encounter with Xivii, and in that same encounter they did indeed manage to power wolf the town without most people noticing.
Xivii is marked in my mind as experienced and knowing what they are doing, which means I'm reluctant to treat this seemingly overeager play as maf inclined, assuming that isn't just how they want me to react.
Excuse me while I go get a ladder to climb out of this rabbit hole.

 

[Trisscar]

Xivii
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMOGaugKpzs

 

[Jackrito]

Jackrito Can you link me to your most recent scum game?

https://smashboards.com/threads/oasis-mafia-over.503643/

 

[Jackrito]

Before I forget:
Unvote
I have to say, Xivii's explicit "look at me, I'm so town" remarks are mildly concerning. I'm not sure what mafia would hope to achieve with this, but good wine needs no bush.

Not that I object to it, but why did you put me in your town core?

I disagree with the notion, that two experienced people should necessarily come to the same conclusions or have the same suspicions or that the only explanation for this alleged discrepancy is that one of them is not town. It is entirely possible even for experienced town to be wrong.

I could see mafia pushing each other a little as a smokescreen tactic and whoever survives longer might gain some town-cred after a flip. It's a risky strategy though, as you need to pull off a case that isn't convincing enough to get everyone on the wagon, but not so weak that you get scumread for it.

I mean is the first part not obv, to make people think he is town so he can pocket them, which he is very good at.

Your point on 2 exp town is pretty good though.

The last part of this is very true and a valid strat, me and Laser did that in the game that we just linked and it nearly worked. It was not done on purpose but still worked. Bussing is a risky strat that can pay off if the person doing it has the confidence to keep that momentum going and not fall back into POE

 

[Jackrito]

Not exactly, no.

why did you not comment on Fonti's big post about what to do today role wise, every other game I have played with you your focus has being on role mechs and how to use them. It was driving me mad last game yet Fonti does a big thing on that, and you choose to ignore it?

 

[Jackrito]

Laser can be scum here he does not feel as natural as he did in the last game where he was my top town. His play feels more stiff like it was in the game I just linked.

I'm not a fan of Xivii early either though and all the early town reads, come on people be a bit self aware of how bad last game was.

 

[Darkpit54]

I was reading back through and found something that I think we may be overlooking, but maybe it's nothing.

Earlier Xivii posted this list with no explanations. While some make sense, others seem somewhat unfounded, especially Jackrito.

Town Core
Xivii
Trisscar
Fontisian
Jackrito
Somitomi

Probably Town
Raxxel
BoomFrog
Darkpit54
Chaco
3DSNinja

Investigate
#HBC | FrozeηFlame

Scum
NSG
LaserGuy

Xivii then proceeded to state that posting this list proves that they're town, as they've done after many of their posts.

We doing another game where you are just going to throw random stuff together. I did one nothing post I should not be town to you.

Jackrito mentioned this but Xivii didn't respond.

This is the post being referred to, which was just a vote on someone who had been silent, with no explanation:

Vote Trisscar

The whole thing just feels kinda off, but maybe I'm way off the mark.

Xivii what was your reasoning for putting Jackrito as part of the core town? What about their post gave you such a strong townie impression? I'm somewhat confused about how you drew that conclusion

 

[Trisscar]

why did you not comment on Fonti's big post about what to do today role wise, every other game I have played with you your focus has being on role mechs and how to use them. It was driving me mad last game yet Fonti does a big thing on that, and you choose to ignore it?

Still pondering how mech heavy this game should be in terms of claiming things. Fonti's post was also addressed by others who gave their own opinion, which I then responded to as part of a conversation. Suspect I might be treating this like a discord thread too much in that regard if it's prickling at you though.

........mmm planning time it seems.

Ok we have three town power roles (not sure if visitor counts, but it does at least do things i suppose?) out of... 7-12 town members.
Three guaranteed mafia, and 0-1 traitors.
Not sure if the ninja is a solo NeutK or what, don't recognize the role. I'll treat it as such for this post though.
13 players. At least 3 are wolves. At least 3 are town power. That leaves 7 un-guaranteed slots.
If we have a Ninja, that means we have 6 slots, one of which could be traitor but the rest are unavoidably town.
That means maf has a 1 in 3 (?) shot of hitting a town power role at night, or so.
Goon is the only role with a kill at all on maf side as per https://www.mafiacolosseum.com/threads/mafia-colosseum-basic-roles.299/ :
"Mafia Goon (Vanilla) - No abilities other than Mafia chat and factional kill."
So maf theoretically has only one kill per night.
Ninja may have another, though I'm uncertain.

We have no protective roles anywhere, and the only roleblocking is on the maf side.
Therefore town power roles should not claim, because our greatest strength right now is a target rich environment. VT's should be doing their best to give maf no idea which role they actually are, or faking them out. VT's are the meat shields here.

I'm honestly not certain that we should have a claimfest D2. Or D3, if the two masons don't find anything overly useful.
I do think, that if someone claims one of the mason or Neo roles, that counterclaims should be immediate, and whoever claimed first is susp, at least for D2. The chances of finding anything overly useful here the first night are rather slim, it would seem to be better to hold onto that information despite possible tracking of behavior (at least till more information is obtained), and I would consider such a thing to be an attempt to fake claim.

 

[Trisscar]

Darkpit54 Pretty sure the vote on me from Jackrito was a joke. I could be wrong 'course, but Jack hasn't said anything about it since so.