Mewtwo's Unreliable Moveset

[Karsticles]

I was reflecting on this yesterday. Mewtwo might have the most unreliable and shoddy set of hitboxes in the game right now. I feel this deserves its own thread on the off chance that a Treehouse member is perusing the forums and spots the thread title, and because drawing attention to this issue will help the Mewtwo community admit there is a problem.

Jab - misses at point blank range against some small characters, like Pikachu. Also, Mewtwo might jab the worst jab to multijab transition in the game - the gap between the two moves is enormous.

Ftilt - consistent, no issues except for being too slow in many situations.

Dtilt - pretty much perfect.

Utilt - inconsistent in how it props up various characters. Some can be Utilt combos into Usmash, but not all, even at point blank range. Animation does not represent the hitbox well, especially in the second half of the move.

Grab - whiffs at point blank range sometimes, and whiffs against crouching characters.

Fsmash - whiffs at point blank range.

Usmash - opponents pop out on the first hit sometimes.

Dsmash - sometimes the animation comes out during a trade, but doesn't actually have a hitbox.

Fair - animation does not represent the hitbox at all. Short hop air dodge into fair produces many situations where an opponent is entirely inside the hitbox, but doesn't get hit.

Bair - animation does not represent the hitbox well, most notably when you are near the ground before using it. Tail goes through opponent, opponent is okay with that and hits you.

Dair - perfectly consistent, as far as I can tell, though it's hitbox is bigger than the animation. It needs a graphical change rather than a hitbox change like his other moves.

Nair - random in how it ejects opponents after it finishes. Is in desperate need of having a larger bottom hitbox so it doesn't 100% whiff of shield against small characters.

Confusion - the reflection glyph is bigger horizontally than the hitbox, but smaller vertically. The active frames are not represented well.

Shadow Ball - seems consistent.

Disable - seems consistent.

Teleport - ricochets off of some flat walls when recovering straight up against them, like Boxing Ring. Possibly an issue with Boxing Ring, though.

Is any other character this wonky and unfinished feeling? Like QA was rushed.

 

[U-Throw]

Mewtwo's Jab 1 is actually very useful. I very rarely transition into Jab 2 because there are actually better follow-ups for Jab 1. For example, if you hit an opponent with Jab 1 and then use Disable, then they get hit as soon as they land. I've also used Mewtwo's Tilts, F-Smash, and D-Smash as follow-ups to Jab 1. Of course, they can jump out of Mewtwo's Jab 1 and escape before I use any of the aforementioned follow-ups, so none of these are true combos, but it does work if the opponent doesn't know what they're doing. So, I don't use Jab 2 on very many characters, but I have to edge-guard in the past. However, I digress.

As for missing Jab 1 at point-blank, I've rarely had that happen to me. That's really a matter of spacing. I do agree that it should be fixed, though. Also, I've never had an issue with whiffing Jab 2, assuming I use it. Once the opponent gets hit by Jab 1, they've always gotten caught up in Jab 2, regardless of if they move away or air-dodge or the like. While I would agree what Mewtwo's "Jab 1 > Jab 2" transition is certainly awkward, it's not really an issue so much as it is a matter of getting used to it.

Mewtwo's F-Tilt is faster than his F-Smash, but it doesn't come out quite as fast as his D-Tilt, I don't believe. For that reason, I do agree that his F-Tilt a little slow in certain situations, but it has it's uses. It's actually a surprisingly powerful move, and I've even gotten KO's with it on occasion. Also, his F-Tilt can actually hit opponents that are hanging onto a ledge if you angle it downward, something neither Mewtwo's D-Tilt or D-Smash can do.

I can't really speak on Mewtwo's U-Tilt, since I don't use it as much as I probably should, so I'll take your word for it, at least for now. However, I've had it used on me and have used it a few times myself, and it works fine for me. I could definitely be missing something, however, as I lack experience with his U-Tilt.

Mewtwo's short grab-range is a little annoying. I haven't seen it miss a crouching character, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if that happens. However, I've never really seen it miss at point-blank. Now, I've had his grab/dash-grab miss because of its short range, but I've never seen it miss when it truly looked like it should've connected.

Mewtwo's F-Smash's blind spot is a little annoying, as well. However, I rarely miss his F-Smash because of the blind spot. Like Mewtwo's Jab 1, it's a matter of spacing properly. Once again, however, I do agree that it should be fixed.

Mewtwo's U-Smash popping opponents out almost never happens to me, and, when it does occur, it looks like I deserved it. The only time that sort of thing has happened to me is when I just barely graze the opponent with Mewtwo's U-Smash's edge, so I don't have a problem with this at all. Otherwise, this move works fine for me.

Can't speak about Mewtwo D-Smash because I've never "traded" blows with it before. Therefore, I would assume that it's lack of a hitbox is a bug that either removes the hitbox entirely or somehow misplaces it. Either way, that issue is a probably a coding oversight that applies specifically to the "trade-offs" you mentioned, because Mewtwo's D-Smash has always worked perfectly for me in normal situations. That said, this should definitely be fixed.

Just to conclude, I would say that most of your points are valid, and that most of the issues you've mentioned should be fixed up. Going by what you're saying, I would say that the D-Smash and U-Tilt problems should be fixed first, with the Mewtwo's Jab 1, F-Smash, and grab blind spots taking second priority. I don't think his U-Smash, F-Tilt, or "Jab 1 > Jab 2" transition need any fixing, though. Other than that, while I don't think his grab-range has any actual issues aside from the aforementioned blind spot, I certainly wouldn't mind if it's range was buffed up a bit, especially since Mewtwo's throws are so powerful.

All in all, excellent points, for the most part! Thank you for bringing these issues to my attention.

 

[pikazz]

the Nair ejection isnt that random:
all the small hits are forces to be hit so the get closer to you, similiar to a black hole.
the final hit launching them AWAY from you. if they are on your left side, they will get launch to left side. same to the right! thanks to NAir Endlag in air, you can get guaranteed any Aerial except for DAir as a true combo at 0~50%

 

[Karsticles]

I would like the transition to Jab 2 to be smoother because Jab 2 is pretty fantastic, and it would be a nice additional tool in the neutral. Agreed that I have never had Jab 1 not transition to Jab 2, though.

Pikazz, not sure what "isn't that random" means. A move is either random, or not.

 

[U-Throw]

I would like the transition to Jab 2 to be smoother because Jab 2 is pretty fantastic, and it would be a nice additional tool in the neutral. Agreed that I have never had Jab 1 not transition to Jab 2, though.

Pikazz, not sure what "isn't that random" means. A move is either random, or not.

He's just saying that you can predict the trajectory of your opponent after hitting them with Mewtwo's N-Air by looking at where they were caught in the attack. Each hit from Mewtwo's N-Air knocks opponents towards Mewtwo, while the final hit knocks them away from Mewtwo. So, if an opponent is on Mewtwo's left when the final hit of his N-Air connects, they'll be launched to his left, and if they're on Mewtwo's right when the final hit connects, they'll be launched to his right, etc., etc. Also, you can apparently true-combo any aerial out of Mewtwo's N-Air except for his D-Air at ~0-50%. Basically, the whole point was that Mewtwo's N-Air's knockback trajectory is predictable, not random.

Also, in regard to Teleport's tendency to ricochet of certain walls when recovering, I totally think that should be fixed. It has something to do with the momentum boost at the end of Teleport, and it can happen on any stage with ledges like Boxing Ring's. It's really annoying, if minor, and I totally agree that it should be fixed up.

 

[Karsticles]

The vacuum on Nair also bounces them left and right. It doesn't seem possible to react to their final position until after they are ejected.

 

[U-Throw]

The vacuum on Nair also bounces them left and right. It doesn't seem possible to react to their final position until after they are ejected.

This is true, but, considering that @ pikazz apparently has little to no trouble true-comboing out of Mewtwo's N-Air, it's likely just a matter of getting better. Everything takes practice, I suppose, and this is no different.

 

[pikazz]

a thing with Nair is that thanks to its vacuum effect, it has a really good effect of dragging down the opponents and footstool them to death if you make them not get hit by the final hit and tracking where they will going. its a free kill since its so unpredicable

 

[Karsticles]

a thing with Nair is that thanks to its vacuum effect, it has a really good effect of dragging down the opponents and footstool them to death if you make them not get hit by the final hit and tracking where they will going. its a free kill since its so unpredicable

I would love a video of that. I am a very visual learner.

We just need more Mewtwo gameplay in general. I can only find Trela, Nature, and Logic out there on YouTube, and IMO Logic isn't that great, and only Trela is worth emulating.

 

[pikazz]

I would love a video of that. I am a very visual learner.

We just need more Mewtwo gameplay in general. I can only find Trela, Nature, and Logic out there on YouTube, and IMO Logic isn't that great, and only Trela is worth emulating.

I am doing a Mewtwo Combo/montage video (a serious one) there the NAir-Footstool is used 2-3 times

The NAir-Footstool are escapable BUT the Footstool has a priority against Jump, meaning if they jump and you footstool them, they losing their jump. Dodging and do an aerial attack doesnt help them cause they still will fall do their deaths. the only way to avoid it is to jump (if they still have it) +air dodge/Aerial or go directly to a special move that can recover.

you could do a NAir- DAir on your way back up, but I find the footstool more evil :3c

 

[mobilisq]

Pika, mind if I ask your native language?

 

[pikazz]

Pika, mind if I ask your native language?

you can see my location, so my native language is swedish.
yes, I dont have english as my main language and my english grammar is worse than mondays
now add that together with my dyslexic and you can understand my pain

 

[RayNoire]

I think I've had forward tilt ducked before, but I'm not sure.

Something to add though, and one of Mewtwo's biggest hitbox issues: inexplicably, down smash doesn't hit at all on the ledge.

 

[mobilisq]

you can see my location, so my native language is swedish.
yes, I dont have english as my main language and my english grammar is worse than mondays
now add that together with my dyslexic and you can understand my pain

Ah the mobile site makes you click on someone's profile to see any details about them. I found some of your word choices interesting and was just curious!

 

[godogod]

I think I've had forward tilt ducked before, but I'm not sure.

Something to add though, and one of Mewtwo's biggest hitbox issues: inexplicably, down smash doesn't hit at all on the ledge.

Try it on training. It does, but its incredibly hard to do it in an actual match, and you have to be at a perfect distance away from the ledge to do so. You can't be right at the edge.

 

[Karsticles]

Try it on training. It does, but its incredibly hard to do it in an actual match, and you have to be at a perfect distance away from the ledge to do so. You can't be right at the edge.

Yeah, I really want to see Mewtwo's hitboxes so we can figure that move out. It has a weird hitbox.