Mewtwos underlooked advantage

[Tongji]

Hey all, im just going to be writing this because it suddenly dawned on me. While some of this is common knowledge (well all it is) I just wanted to bring it up in a public forum to see if I actually have a point, or if I am deranged. Ok well when I started playing smash competativly me and my friend who mains fox would play every day. We practed long and hard before we decided to go to our first tourny. I would say that we have the same skill level (roughly) and we were both nervous about the tourny (because we thought that at that time) anyone who went to a tourny was serious business and we would get 4stocked all of the time Anyway when we arrived and finally started playing something interesting happened. I did better in the tourny than my friend, and got wins against really good people. While my friend with fox was just getting destroyed.

Basically what I am trying to say with that little story is this. Mewtwo's greatest asset is the unknown. Nobody knows what mewtwo can do, how to approach, defend edgeguard, get on the edge ext. while some people are more familliar than others, knowbody knows m2 as well as fox or falco. That in my oppinion is such an overlooked asset that he has. Fox/falco on the other hand, once you play one fox you have played them all. EVERYONE know's fox, his combos, his fall speed his attacks ext. I think that if fox has a weakness that is it. It's his familliarity. And mewtwo's greatest is his unknown. Anyway I have never heard of this brought up before of the boards and I just wanted to see waht all of you guys think.

 

[Wilhelmsan]

This has been brought up before. Usually when Taj talks M2, he introduces the "if your opponent knows how to fight M2" aspect. It's still a really cool thing that M2 can own people.

 

[Deleted member]

that's just perspective, though, which is the problem. I can give you an excellent example of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjs6mS2NyxU

This match features a solidly good mewtwo player vs ken's marth. Now, one might argue that the mewtwo was really good to take 2 stock in this match, since mewtwo vs marth isn't a fun match to begin with.

On the other hand, you can tell ken is being sloppy intentionally, he's not really trying (no offense to the mewtwo player) but he's basically just going for semi-decent combos, and it's pretty obvious if you look at marth more than mewtwo, but since mewtwo is much less commonly played, that's who most people will focus attention to.

Once you get into higher levels of play, you can't rely on your opponents to be ignorant to your character, so that utility fades really fast. Whereas knowledge being power holds true for the top tiers too. Everyone knows fox's everything like you listed. A fine example, peach has no answer for fox's laser spamming. She's a great character, and she just can't do anything. Therefore, at a higher level of play, fox's laser spamming holds much more utility than mewtwo's unknown factor. The same could be said for falco's laser spamming, fox/marth dashdance camping, sheik's edgeguarding, etc. "Don't get hit" doesn't apply here. These characters have a nearly infallible strategy of some kind.

 

[Tongji]

I will definalty agree with you mow, if a fox or falcon really wanted to beat m2, bowser, dk ext all they would have to do is laser camp. While there is nothing i can do about this infalable teck. I sometimes find it annoying when Im up two stock agains a falcon and then he resorts to laser camping witch = death for m2. sigh, your right tho all "pro" players know every mover from every character, nothing suprizes them. However for the mast majority of Smash players mewtwo is still somewhat of an inigma. dik I just think in that respect mewtwo has a significant advantage aginst some of the high tiers.

 

[dguy6789]

Agreed Mow. One cannot rely on an enemy's lack of experience. Now that I have mained as Mewtwo for quite a long time, a ton of people that I play against regularly now know how to play against him. As a result, I have to rely on my own skills rather than the enemy's lack there of.

Tongi, if laser camping is so difficult for you, I recommend learning some tactics for dealing with it. In all of my long time playing, I have not met a single person that can just resort to one thing to win every time. This includes Fox's up throw to up air and various grab to knee combos with Falcon. Some of these tactics may be unable to be dodged when they are successfully started, but that just means you must not allow them to be started.

 

[Tongji]

Dguy, I find it hard against a SHL camping falco yes, what m2 doesn't. MewTwo has nothing to counter with. when falcon is doing that consistantly you have to approach, with is never good for mew two. do you have a viable way to break that defense? Other than rushing the whole match and going all out offense which would not allow the falco to get that space, what type of strat do you suggest? MewTwo doesn't do well when he decides to go all out offence.
idk Overall playing mewtwo and hopeing that all of your opponents will not know how to play you is asking for too much, yes I agree. Im just saying that for the majority m2 is still quite unknown. I will also agree that eventually your luck is going to run out, and you will need to rely on 'skill' not the enemys stupidity. Trust me I have found out first hand that a player that does understand mewtwo is inevitable. Just ask my friend n00k who plays me almost every day. his fox destroyes my m2, im lucky if i win 25% of the games we play. Those matches definatly put mewtwo in his place, and definatly shows that tier lists do exist. there is no denying it. Me and N00k are about the same skill level and he destroyes me. All because he knows how to play aginst mewtwo. While I have played countless games against his fox and other foxes, no matter what I seem to do he will always have one up on me. anyway sorry for the long post.

 

[dguy6789]

Tongji, short hop laser can be a pain, but it is not anywhere near as bad as it would seem at first glance.

The first thing you must be sure not to do is to instantly decide that it is impossible to counter some tactic. If you lock your way of thinking into the idea that something cannot be overcome, it will instantly become that much harder to beat. Mental blocks can be a complete pain, do not fall under them.

I have said it once, I shall say it again, I have not encountered anything to date that is so overwhelmingly difficult that it could not be overcome. I do not feel that anything exists that is impossible to beat either. If I cannot beat someone, I do not pass the blame onto the character. I lost because I was not as good as that guy. If I want to beat that guy next time, I have to improve.

To beat short hop laser, you must first understand the very point of it. Short hop laser is a tactic designed to give control of the battle to the Falco player. If the Falco player feels that he does not have control over you, then things will go much better for you.

Mewtwo has a few options to beat short hop laser.

First of all, you can simply shield it. This tactic works against it just fine and it works with every character. If you can power shield even decently, all the better. If you can shield off his lasers effectively, the Falco player will eventually realize that SHL will not work against you, and probably rush you. Some Falcos will short hop laser while approaching you. Sometimes, you will be able to shield grab him when he gets closer. Problem is, a good Falco will see you shielding and will grab you himself. Use your best judgement on how to react to what he does. The one problem with this tactic is that you are not moving. By not moving, the enemy can better prepare for whatever it is that he is going to do next.

Secondly, you can play edge games. Get on the edge where lasers do nothing and mess around with him there. This can be risky as his dair spike is dangerous. I would not recommend this tactic as your primary counter to SHL as it is far too risky and you have to be darn good with ledge games to make the risk worth it.

Third, you can rush him. This sounds obvious, but Mewtwo can do it incredibly well. When he is doing his SHL, you can jump way up in the air and approach him from heights that his laser cannot reach. Combine this aerial movement with a well placed teleport and you can get on top of him without being hit. If you do it very predictably and direct, you will get hit. When approaching him from the air, you can either teleport, attack, or air dodge. Use your best judgment here. If you are constantly on top of him and attacking him successfully, he will not have much opportunity to use SHL. There exists two problems with this tactic though. Number one is that the entire reason the Falco is doing SHL is to get you to approach him. With him expecting it, he will have the upper hand strategically when you get to him. Number two is that the Falco could have better close combat fighting skills than you do. Despite these short comings, I do feel that this option is the best of the three for fighting against short hop laser.

In my case, I usually do strategy one when fighting a Falco, if they are persistent and continue to do SHL, I will then do strategy three. As I am right now, I have no real problem playing against short hop laser simply due to me encountering it so many times.

Your comments on Fox vs Mewtwo with you and your friend are stated with too absolute of a mind set.. Fox can be a much more all out character as he has no truly obnoxious weaknesses.(He has some, just not on the scale that Mewtwo does.) If you run straight at the guy, you have less to worry about with Fox than you do with Mewtwo. This is not to say that Mewtwo is bad for offensive fighting; he is quite awesome at it. However, with Mewtwo, you have to attack with a certain degree of finesse. You have to have flawless timing and downright awesome spacing. If you mess up on either of those, you will be punished. The problem is, the punishment is quite severe in Mewtwo's case. If you mess up, you will probably receive a large amount of damage, and with Mewtwo, you do not need too much damage to be killed.

All in all, the best advice I can give you is to keep playing and do not give up. I have been playing Mewtwo for a very long time. I have been to countless tournaments and have played against the best that Florida has to offer. I was in the same boat as you at one point. I felt that I could not get any better than I was. I felt that nothing would change. However, it eventually all started coming together. Getting all of your tactics down and increasing your proficiency with the advanced techniques takes time. Play as much as you can with as many people as you can. Mewtwo can have terrible consequences for when you make a mistake, but he can have unbelievable rewards for when you battle with precision. A double edged sword.

Peace.

 

[Tongji]

thank you very much dguy for your super in-depth post (i appreciate it greatly) however, I have a bone to pick with you. I will still say that when it comes to a fox who "knows" how m2 plays your going to have a lot of trouble beating him. I can do just fine against any space animal I encounter, it's just n00k who pawnz me. I don't think that I got my point across to well in my first discussion, so ill try and re-word it. Most space animals I have no problem with, it's almost a joke sometimes. However there a select few people in my area that can do well agianst my m2 with fox. These peepz (tink) and (N00k) and a few more can outright destroy my m2. all im saying is, if the fox player is good enough, and knows the adv. tecks ie. wave shine drill shine ext and can do them with extream proficiancy, you will have a tough fight on your hands. Mewtwo is outmatched. Now im not saying that it is not possible to win, however it's extreamly rare. perhaps you are right dguy, I may have not played m2 enough, or am hitting a "glass wall" if you will. But in my defencse I think that the win loss record can speak for itself. Against a knowlegable fox/falco m2 is totaly at a loss. anyway thanks for your time and I hope im just not repeating my self.

 

[dguy6789]

I agree that a Fox that knows how to beat a Mewtwo will be tough. But that can pretty much be said for any character. If your opponent is highly skilled and knows exactly how to beat your character, it will be a tough fight no matter what character you are. I have a friend who is awesome with Fox, even by Smash Board standards. He is incredibly tough to fight and I have yet to beat him, although our recent matches have been growing closer and closer. I can definitely see myself eventually being able to take him down.

The discussion is no waste of time. I love sharing my knowledge and also am still learning myself.

 

[Deleted member]

mewtwo's limitations are not mental, they're physical. lots of people say taj has exploited mewtwo's full potential, that he's not bottom tier. taj has exploited mewtwo, I agree. taj's recent videos look the same my matches did when I was at my best 15-18 months ago. I see why he does what he does, in each match I would have done no more. Last time I played mewtwo well I'd have last stock matches with PC chris and they'd go 50/50, but that's not the case anymore.

I also love taj's videos. all the sheiks seem to think doing things other than forward tilt will work. Doing a fair on mewtwo's nice big shield is doing him a favor (see: bloodofthefallen), which could be the same as said for falco's dair. I have yet to see a video of taj mewtwo vs a good fox, and he had the same success rate vs m2k fox as I did =/

mewtwo's only advantage is his ridiculous combo ability, so if you want to be a good mewtwo player, abuse that and don't do anything stupid.

 

[dguy6789]

I agree that there are definitely inherent physical limitations. However, there is a mental limitation that goes with it. Some people over exaggerate how bad of a character he is, and as a result, they do not play as well as they could because they think that whatever skill level they are at is the limit because the character is no good.

 

[Pdiz]

that's just perspective, though, which is the problem. I can give you an excellent example of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjs6mS2NyxU

This match features a solidly good mewtwo player vs ken's marth. Now, one might argue that the mewtwo was really good to take 2 stock in this match, since mewtwo vs marth isn't a fun match to begin with.

On the other hand, you can tell ken is being sloppy intentionally, he's not really trying (no offense to the mewtwo player) but he's basically just going for semi-decent combos, and it's pretty obvious if you look at marth more than mewtwo, but since mewtwo is much less commonly played, that's who most people will focus attention to.

Once you get into higher levels of play, you can't rely on your opponents to be ignorant to your character, so that utility fades really fast. Whereas knowledge being power holds true for the top tiers too. Everyone knows fox's everything like you listed. A fine example, peach has no answer for fox's laser spamming. She's a great character, and she just can't do anything. Therefore, at a higher level of play, fox's laser spamming holds much more utility than mewtwo's unknown factor. The same could be said for falco's laser spamming, fox/marth dashdance camping, sheik's edgeguarding, etc. "Don't get hit" doesn't apply here. These characters have a nearly infallible strategy of some kind.

I take no offense to your opinion on this Mow, haha. And you're right, I know Ken wasn't playing his best -- not even close. He's the best smasher in the world for God's Sake! And yeah, I also agree that fox and other high tier characters abilities FAR outweigh mewtwo's unknown.
With that being said, I will also whole heartedly agree with tongji: Mewtwo's element of the unknown does give mewtwo a big advantage. I've surprised many very good smash players with mewtwo. For example, I went to a Washington tournament this last Saturday and played against Blair and Sas. Against BOTH bliar and sas, I ONLY got 1 stocked on yoshi's story. Sure Blair, suicided twice, although Sas didn't -- but that's not the point. My point is if I would have played my fox (which is OK), then I would have gotten utterly destroyed. This wouldn't be because my fox is worse than my mewtwo, but because they know how to play against a FOX sooooooo **** well, as do all other pro's. Again like all of you have mentioned, I would like to point out that once someone catches onto mewtwo, your chances of winning gets cut in more that half.

 

[Tongji]

I think mow said just what I was trying to say, some of the m2 players on the board, still playing mew two and those who did quit ie. mow, mooks ext. Have reached m2's potential limit. There is nothing more you can do, no more adv. tecks to work on just (i hate to asy this) "mindgames" I don't want to get into the whole mindgames disscussion but basically what everyone is saying is true. Mewtwo is definatly limited. he is a character that you can only take so far, because of his physical limitations you will eventually come to the point where there is nothing left to do. Not one person the boards can honestly tell me that "mew two can still keep growing" whenI mean growing I mean his potential meta game. There is just nothing. he is definatly outmatched. mostly because he has already grown to his full potential. idk. I really don't want to say that but it's reality. (or at least reality to me)

Ohh by the way Mow, I was playin/talking to crash man and he told me that your m2 destroyes shieks. He was telling me that you would do these sick 0-death combos on them. I was just wondering if you wouldn't mind sharing some of your shiek experience or overall strats? because I hate shieks, I hate thier tilts and I don't like how anyone that picks her up is good. lolz anyway thanks alot guys and I am interested in hearing some other oppions about m2.

 

[Deleted member]

I just combo them. I'm really good against sheik in general, so with mewtwo's combos it's not really a surprise.

I still pick mewtwo vs falco/sheik, falco/falco, or sheik/sheik teams lol.

For the record, azen's sheik still 1 stocks me =/

edit: oh yeah you actually wanted advice >_> umm when you recover vs sheik, teleport past her if she jumps off after you. if she sits at the edge, upair her through the stage on your way back and hope she doesn't crouch it ( or you get ****ed if she does).

another good trick vs sheik is to air dodge up exactly to the edge to grab it, much the same way sheik's up b grabs the edge before the poof. m2's air dodge grabs the edge immediately, abuse it.

 

[Tongji]

thank you Mow for the super indepth stratagy when playing shiek XD

 

[Taj278]

Not one person the boards can honestly tell me that "mew two can still keep growing" whenI mean growing I mean his potential meta game. There is just nothing. he is definatly outmatched. mostly because he has already grown to his full potential. idk. I really don't want to say that but it's reality. (or at least reality to me)

Mewtwo can still keep growing, he has not grown to his full potential.

 

[Wobbles]

Seriously guys; Mewtwo will level up until he evolves into Taj. Plain and simple ;P

 

[dguy6789]

I agree with you Taj. To assume that anyone is able to play any character in the game perfectly is ridiculous. There is no such thing as perfection. As a result of this, there will always be room to improve. Granted, the time it takes to improve versus how much one improves will begin to have diminishing returns, so growth will slow down, but it will never stop completely.

Do not think that because there are no new advanced techniques to master, that you are at the limit. Once you learn the techniques, you must apply them to your game. That application to the game is what takes time and finesse and can never be measured in absolute terms.

 

[wuthefwasthat]

Mewtwo can still keep growing, he has not grown to his full potential.

yeah. unless taj and mow are playing on action replay, mewtwo's not done yet.

 

[takieddine]

Mewtwo's aerials are awesome, and can outrange many characters, i think his down side is that he's a huge target (coupled with being light as hell).

I just started to pick up mewtwo, and I gotta say that his combos are pretty intutitive, his moves connect pretty well.

Even given that, like mow said, high level play is a whole different ball game, where if mewtwo has good qualities, its a waste when he cannot even use them against say an aggressive falco.

 

[Pdiz]

Yeah seriously... I don't think mewtwo has reached his limit either...

 

[Tongji]

Well, perhaps not his absolute limit. However his rate of growth compared to other characters is like comparing a 4 door mini van to a lambo in a race. Every other charcter is just so far ahead of M2 in there technical abilities. This is the case because no one plays m2. Our community is small, so we don't have as many people comeing up with good strats. We have based most of our m2 knowledge by mookie, mow, taj and a few others. If you look into the fox boards you will see HUNDREDS of people contributing new ideas/strats ext. That is why in my oppion m2 is going to be slow going, and there isn't going to be any new "game changing" strats. (but i still hope so)

About becoming the "perfect" player. Well everyone strives to have all of there spacing, speed and approch tecks. like this. Not making one mistake is immpossible. We are human, not machines so playing that "perfect" game is never going to be reality. Even getting close to that threashold is not possible. However dguy you are correct. you can ALWAYS work on your spacing and approaches. but there is still going to be error. this comment isn't really about m2 meta game as it is about the player that is controlling him. of course YOU can always grow by getting your spacings perfect ext. But im talking about the character. Which in my oppion has been hitting a glass wall for some time now.

If you think about it m2's first "greats" were Mooks and Mow. they developed him into the pre taj idea of what mew two could do and how he was better than people thought. after awhile Mooks left M2 main for marth, and Mow also doesn't play m2 main. However lucky for us there was a kid from arizona XD Who totally took m2 off the map!! He had fresh new ideas and brought a whole new game for mew two. Now however we are again in a creative slump. We need more people to shake up the m2 group, or we need old players to think of new strats. idk I think that it would be sweet to have a community effort. you know like posting your most insane hypothisis for combos and the like. Hopefully out of this malestorm of insanity we could discover somethin new. perhaps that last thoguth was being a bit hopefull but hey who cares

MewTwo till the end

 

[Deleted member]

the first good mewtwo was Mew2Matt aka Greta the Great, not me. I came shortly after him.

 

[Tongji]

I apologize mew2Matt aka greta im sorry that was before my time, and I had no idea. thanks for the clarification Mow

 

[Pdiz]

If there is still a great void of exploration that can done with mewtwo, then I would say it would be in his confusion and disable, and possibly even his teleport. I've started using a his disable a lot lately, and quite effectively. It's seriously a great move (it's even kind of hard to punish if used correctly). Even though I know a lot about the move right now, I know still know there are a lot of possibilities that I have yet to explore. Confusion has probably the greatest potential in my opinion. I'm still not exactly sure if it could be considered a good move or not, but it sounds like taj and forward have discovered a few very useful things about it, and I'm sure there are much more to come. I think it's potentially very useful because of it's insane priority, pretty much because it's considered a grab. And as for the teleport, I'm sure there are still some crazy combos to be found where teleport is necessary to cover some distance quickly in order to continue comboing or for some crazy mind games.

 

[takieddine]

If people think mew2 deserves a higher spot, people just have to start or keep playing him...thats really the best way to get the best out of him.

 

[quak]

nah, no he doesn't, he's the worst character in the game

 

[Tongji]

here is the problem.
1. Teleport: any player worth thier salt will be able to see you coming (all thanks to the camera change) the move is just not fast enough, comboing perhaps but then you have to rely on a missed teck, which isn't good odd's when playing a good player.

2. Confusion: yes confusion does have un matched priority, no move can out prioritze this sexy move however there are many many problems. First off the opponent recovers before you do, that is not good- the move has terrible start up and finish lag. If you miss you will be sitting there grunting and moving your arm, while you get Usmashed in the face. idk from my experience people don't know how to teck confusion so there is something going for it, I have gotten confusion to d-tilt combos off. It's just really situational and lucky. The only way to get in the d-tilt is if your opponent doesn't jump, or teck away. However people learn fast so don't expect this to work too often. Now on to taj's confusion teck. I have never seen it done on video so I cannot say exactly however, Uthrow to confusion doesn't have much of an effect. Everyone that I play just simply jumps away from me. Insted of coufusion i could have insted used massive shadow claw and racked up some damage. However i have never seen this move done so perhaps I am not performing if correctly. idk I just think that if you get a grab off at low % against some one you should definatly capitalize on it and rack up some % not confusion. Just my oppinion however.

Disable: Now with disable there are some interesting uses for it. I prefer to use it on recovering opponents because for some reason you cannot "roll" from the edge through this move. At higher % it's just sends them flying off of the edge. Now other than that disable is a risky manuver. The hit box is so tuchy with that move that sometimes it's more luck than anything. ie. When fox does his dash cancled grab, I have tried disabling him. However this doesn't work near the end of the grab because his head is pointing down and you do nothing. XD idk situational at best. However it like confusion has great priority (if you can hit) You can knock peepz out of the air and alot of the time right into a nice grab.

well that's just my 2 cents worth. Sorry to sound so Hopeless but that's just my experience. Perhaps anyone else has any ideas??? they would definatly be appriciated!
anyway take it easy guys!

 

[Silent Wolf]

nah, no he doesn't, he's the worst character in the game

Kirby's the worst in the game.

 

[quak]

that i may agree with you, kirby does suck pretty hard, i tried to pick him up, and he was pretty dissapointing

but then mewtwo is the second worst

 

[Airo]

perhaps, we should do an analytic permutation calculation to pair up all of mewtwos moves together..

then analyticly deduct each one of them slowly and carefully. that way, by the end of the analysis, we will know all of mewtwo's combo has been discovered.

but then theres also the rare position of the target only found in real matches to consider.

perhaps we should also list out all possible scenarios and analyse the potential usage of each of mewtwo's moves.

i would believe that the movement factor of mewtwo is already at full potential.

theres still the defensive mewtwo to consider.

oh... leave this to taj.