Mewtwo Patch 1.1.3

[ILOVESMASH]

This update was insanely good for mewtwo. I think he went from being a bottom 15 character to a potential high tier.

The Speed increase is an insane buff to mewtwo's neutral and advantage in pretty much every way. Mewtwo now has an easier time camping slower characters with shadow ball since he can run away from them more efficiently. His faster run speed also makes it easier for him to get a grab, as he can catch up to the shadow ball around the time it hits the opponents shield. Doing things such as KOing, trapping landings, starting combos, etc. is also much easier thanks to M2's better mobility.

The buffs to M2's aerials significantly improve his juggle and SHAD game. The buffs to Uair and Bair make Mewtwo pretty good at juggling now as opposed to just being average. The landing lag decreases from all his aerials also make his SHAD insanely good, since he can do things such as being able to confirm a grab out nair or start FAir chains much easier.

I personally like the changes the devs made to his d-throw as well since it can setup into 50 / 50's with U Smash or fair. Still mad we can't truly combo stuff out of this throw due to its insane endlag.

 

[420quickscoper]

This update was insanely good for mewtwo. I think he went from being a bottom 15 character to a potential high tier.

The Speed increase is an insane buff to mewtwo's neutral and advantage in pretty much every way. Mewtwo now has an easier time camping slower characters with shadow ball since he can run away from them more efficiently. His faster run speed also makes it easier for him to get a grab, as he can catch up to the shadow ball around the time it hits the opponents shield. Doing things such as KOing, trapping landings, starting combos, etc. is also much easier thanks to M2's better mobility.

The buffs to M2's aerials significantly improve his juggle and SHAD game. The buffs to Uair and Bair make Mewtwo pretty good at juggling now as opposed to just being average. The landing lag decreases from all his aerials also make his SHAD insanely good, since he can do things such as being able to confirm a grab out nair or start FAir chains much easier.

I personally like the changes the devs made to his d-throw as well since it can setup into 50 / 50's with U Smash or fair. Still mad we can't truly combo stuff out of this throw due to its insane endlag.

I can't say he'll be high tier anytime soon, but with enough development... heh.
Dude, I love Mewtwo's mobility right now. So much. It just feels so fluid with his Top 5 air speed, 12th dash speed and just.. my freaking god. Is Mewtwo's air dodge the best in the game or what?

I think it kind of improves his spacing a bit too. I dunno.

I just fought someone and I feel great about it. He just feels so much more fun to play, and he was already hella fun before. I love Mewtwo so much.

 

[BlazGreen]

High tier is a bit of a stretch but I think he's escaped the dark depths of the tier list at least.

 

[420quickscoper]

High tier is a bit of a stretch but I think he's escaped the dark depths of the tier tier list at least.

He has. Trust me.

 

[3MP1R3]

I just tried d-throw to U-smash with Mewtwo at low %, and with DI away it works to about 60% on the majority of the cast. Also on training mode it says it true combos to about 90-100% on everyone.

Even if the buffs aren't the Ike treatment, I still feel this pulls him out of bottom 10.

 

[420quickscoper]

I just tried d-throw to U-smash with Mewtwo at low %, and with DI away it works to about 60% on the majority of the cast. Also on training mode it says it true combos to about 90-100% on everyone.

Even if the buffs aren't the Ike treatment, I still feel this pulls him out of bottom 10.

Really? I never thought he was Bottom 10. I feel he was Top 40 before this patch, but right now I can actually see him around Top 28.

 

[TropicalTaco]

I'm so hyped about the mobility buff

Let's lock 'n load boys, Mewtwo is finally good, dare I say tourney viable

"Good" is probably stretching it, but I like your enthusiasm. The added mobility and reduced landing lag should go a long way, in any case.

Love your avatar, btw.

 

[420quickscoper]

"Good" is probably stretching it, but I like your enthusiasm. The added mobility and reduced landing lag should go a long way, in any case.

Love your avatar, btw.

Pssh, Mewtwo was okay before. I think he's actually good now. Or confirmed decent.

 

[Y2Kay]

Love your avatar, btw.

My Super Complicated Process of Making Avatars:
1.) find a cool pic of mewtwo
2.) edit gold chains around his neck
3.) profit

 

[godogod]

Oh, yes, it's a great idea to keep on asking for weight buffs! It's a better idea to wait for buffs that he "deserves" than to work on his metagame!

I hate to say it, but I really despise your negative mindset.

Negative mindset? I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm happy he got the buffs he did yesterday. I'm just saying it would be awesome if he got his melee weight back(as well as fixing his hitbox with his grab specifically against smaller characters), and teleport sding. Also, it would be great if he got his hitbox when charging shadowball back. This would make him great in my eyes. This is a completely different issue than from working on his current metagame.

So much of the buffs we got today was based off the top concerns we(smash bros community on smashboards and all over the world, specifically mewtwo fans) had of Mewtwo. Hitbox issues(especially aerials), slow landing lags for aerials, I asked for shadowball recoil to get reduced for a while for months, and it happened by coincidence. Most people didn't believ that smash characters would get attribute changes(speed, weight,e tc) because we didn't get them before, and here we got Mewtwo faster than before in dash and walk speed. Anything is possible now.

Well it took longer than any of the other "bad" characters, but Mewtwo finally got the update he deserves. Looking at the kind of changes he got, this pretty much confirms that there is no way in hell that Mewtwo will ever get a weight buff. So it's time for everyone that is still yelling for a weight change to kiss their fantasies goodbye, once and for all. There is also no way that they will add in a hitbox to the charging animation for shadow ball. There aren't adding in a completely new hitbox. Deal with it.

I'm not gonna claim anything about how these changes will affect Mewtwo's combo game or defensive game, because it'll take time and a lot of experimenting to find out how drastic the changes were. I'll let you guys do that. All I can tell is that down throw still sucks, but I like the reduced landing lag on aerials and increased speed.

All the whining I did this year paid off, so I'm satisfied. This was the kind of patch I was hoping for.

Regarding any more balance patches.. We don't know that. There's still February.

No new hitboxes? Ganondorf got his hitboxes remade entirely for his neutral air, according to the 1.1.3 patch.
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes.425921/

If fall into the trap of not speaking up and thinking its okay, then Sakurai won't think its a problem and we'll hav eto stick with what we got.. I'm happy and grateful of what we got, although it doesn't fix one of Mewtwo's most glaring weakness(tall and second lightest weight), and its going to still hinder him competitively. I still think his weight nerf wasn't justified with the added kill power and options he got in smash 4. I'm not asking for something incredibly unrealstic. Just his melee weight back and hopefully shadowball to have a hitbox while charging, I don't care about him being top tier, he's been my main like he was in melee since i first downloaded him. I just want some of his good attributes from Melee combined with Smash 4, and have him being a decent viable competitor in smash.

 

[420quickscoper]

Negative mindset? I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm happy he got the buffs he did yesterday. I'm just saying he would be awesome if he got his charged shadowball and melee weight back. This would make him great. This is a completely different issue than from working on his current metagame.

So much of the buffs we got today was based off the top concerns we(smash bros community, specifically mewtwo fans) had of Mewtwo. Hitbox issues(especially aerials), slow landing lags for aerials, Hell, even I asked for shadowball recoil to get reduced for a while, and it happened by coincidence. Also, nobody believed that smash characters would get attribute changes(speed, weight,e tc) because we didn't get them before, and here we got Mewtwo faster than before in dash speed. Anything is possible.

That's true. I want charged shadow ball back, but weight is fine for me.
I'm sorry, it's just that your post seemed a little pessimistic to me.

 

[Chiroz]

I just tried d-throw to U-smash with Mewtwo at low %, and with DI away it works to about 60% on the majority of the cast. Also on training mode it says it true combos to about 90-100% on everyone.

Even if the buffs aren't the Ike treatment, I still feel this pulls him out of bottom 10.

D-throw into U-Smash true combos? Are you sure? You're getting 27% on training?

 

[420quickscoper]

D-throw into U-Smash true combos? Are you sure? You're getting 27% on training?

The combo meter is pretty silly, so we don't really know if it true combos or not.

I highly doubt it because of the end lag. It's just not really possible to get anything out of it.

 

[Chiroz]

The combo meter is pretty silly, so we don't really know if it true combos or not.

I highly doubt it because of the end lag. It's just not really possible to get anything out of it.

The combo meter just doesn't handle Multi-Hit Link Hitboxes or Grabs. It does handle throws though (and by multi-hit I mean things like jabs or N-Air). If you get a true combo out of a throw that is not a multi-hit (I don't think any throw is a multi-hit, some do 2 hits and such but are not multi-hits) then it is a true combo (At least in terms of hitstun, you could still DI it).


I also doubt it's a true combo tbh. Specially until much higher than kill %.

 

[420quickscoper]

The combo meter just doesn't handle Multi-Hit Link Hitboxes or Grabs. It does handle throws though. If you get a true combo out of a throw that is not a multi-hit then it is a true combo (At least in terms of hitstun, you could still DI it).


I also doubt it's a true combo tbh. Specially until much higher than kill %.

Yeah. Down throw just doesn't really do much. At least it's a little bit better cause it kind of has 50/50s, but that's it.

 

[RayNoire]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. We still have a horrible grab, bad hitboxes, huge hurtbox, light weight, glitchy ledge options, a terrible tech roll, bad frame data, etc. For all that we did get, none of this has changed.

If anything, this update shows what an absolute cesspool Mewtwo was before.

We may have crawled out of bottom 5, but we're still not too far from it.

It's a nice patch. Let's hope February brings some more fixes.

 

[420quickscoper]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. We still have a horrible grab, bad hitboxes, huge hurtbox, light weight, glitchy ledge options, a terrible tech roll, bad frame data, etc. For all that we did get, none of this has changed.

If anything, this update shows what an absolute cesspool Mewtwo was before.

We may have crawled out of bottom 5, but we're still not too far from it.

It's a nice patch. Let's hope February brings some more fixes.

Actually, I think you're the one getting ahead of yourself. I will agree that Mewtwo has some very noticeable flaws, but...

You're actually making it look a bigger deal than it seems. Ha.

 

[godogod]

I think Mewtwo is underrated.

That's true. I want charged shadow ball back, but weight is fine for me.
I'm sorry, it's just that your post seemed a little pessimistic to me.

My apologies. I can see that I sounded ungreatful. I'm not too deep into the metagame lore of advanced combo strings. I'm happy he got the buffs he got, which were totally unexpected(specifically reduced recoil on shadowball, f air, up air connecting much better and a decent kill move now, and faster movement speed), and I got exciited and think we don't have to stop there to voice our concerns about addressing all of his issues. Sakurai did fix the majority of his issues in this patch though.

 

[420quickscoper]

I think Mewtwo is underrated.

My apologies. I can see that I sounded ungreatful. I'm not too deep into the metagame lore of combo strings. I'm happy he got the buffs he got, which were totally unexpected, and I got exciited and think we don't have to stop there to voice our concerns about making him better.

Thank you, godogod. I appreciate your enthusiasm and your apology.

 

[Chiroz]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. We still have a horrible grab, bad hitboxes, huge hurtbox, light weight, glitchy ledge options, a terrible tech roll, bad frame data, etc. For all that we did get, none of this has changed.

If anything, this update shows what an absolute cesspool Mewtwo was before.

We may have crawled out of bottom 5, but we're still not too far from it.

It's a nice patch. Let's hope February brings some more fixes.

While I agree that Mewtwo is not just jumping from Bottom 5 to high tier as some people are claiming I think you underestimate the power that N-Air comboing into our grounded attacks might actually bring to Mewtwo's options.


I have no idea where Mewtwo would be on a tier list or how to correctly measure that, specially since almost all low tiers got buffed. But Mewtwo is honestly much, much better than he was before.

 

[420quickscoper]

While I agree that Mewtwo is not just jumping from Bottom 5 to high tier as some people are claiming I think you underestimate the power that N-Air comboing into our grounded attacks might actually bring to Mewtwo's options.


I have no idea where Mewtwo would be on a tier list or how to correctly measure that, specially since almost all low tiers got buffed. But Mewtwo is honestly much, much better than he was before.

I think he's undoubtedly a mid low right now. He just doesn't feel low tier anymore.

That reminds me, I think the game is getting to a point where there's not going to be a Bottom part of the tier. I hope that'll happen one day.

 

[RayNoire]

While I agree that Mewtwo is not just jumping from Bottom 5 to high tier as some people are claiming I think you underestimate the power that N-Air comboing into our grounded attacks might actually bring to Mewtwo's options.


I have no idea where Mewtwo would be on a tier list or how to correctly measure that, specially since almost all low tiers got buffed. But Mewtwo is honestly much, much better than he was before.

I hope so, but I'm still skeptical. Nair could technically link into grounded moves before with FF Nair; it was just hard to land right. It still isn't that easy (too much momentum and you'll be too far away to follow up), but I'm excited to test it out. It being safer is definitely good regardless.

 

[Y2Kay]

Our boys are workin' hard in the lab right now, let's see what they find first.

I'm all in all pretty happy. Mewtwo is a little cleaned up, and pretty decent. Now there are some neat stuff being found out. The mewtwo community has finally regrouped after a looong drought of inactivity. I'm glad to see everyone back in action.

 

[godogod]

So nobody*knows exactly his confusion got changed huh.. Also, are there any legit confirmations on the size of his shadowball and dash attack animation changing?

 

[Chiroz]

So nobody how exactly his confusion got changed huh.. Also, are there any legit confirmations on the size of his shadowball and dash attack animation changing?

From a balance/programmer stand point. If I was balancing the game according to what I saw online I would make Confusion's behavior while under a platform consistent throughout the characters. Basically change the way the hitboxes work so no character goes higher than another while being tumbled by Confusion.

So how about someone test Battlefield and check if we can still Side-B->U-Smash ZSS under a platform.

 

[Darklink401]

Can we talk about dtilt upair being a true kill combo?

It's tricky since there's 3 (?) different hitboxes on upair, but it can kill Fox from around 115% - 125%

 

[Chiroz]

Can we talk about dtilt upair being a true kill combo?

It's tricky since there's 3 (?) different hitboxes on upair, but it can kill Fox from around 115% - 125%

I am just not very thrilled by it because before you could get the exact same result out of D-Tilt->U-Air->F-Air and it killed around that same exact %.

As I said I haven't seen anything exciting about the new U-Air, but I also haven't seen anything that's bad about it. It's just different combos that achieve basically the same thing our old combos did.

 

[Darklink401]

I am just not very thrilled by it because before you could get the exact same result out of D-Tilt->U-Air->F-Air and it killed around that same exact %.

As I said I haven't seen anything exciting about the new U-Air, but I also haven't seen anything that's bad about it. It's just different combos that achieve basically the same thing our old combos did.

But did dtilt > upair > fair work to kill from 99-130%? XD

 

[Chiroz]

But did dtilt > upair > fair work to kill from 99-130%? XD

It did, yes. In fact it killed earlier if F-Air was fresh.

It worked from 50-110% and would kill around 90%. You just had to switch the hitbox depending on the %. At 50% you had to hit with the strongest hitbox, at 110% you had to hit with the weakest. Mid hitbox was around 70-90%.

 

[Darklink401]

It did, yes. In fact it killed earlier if F-Air was fresh.

It worked from 50-110% and would kill around 90%. You just had to switch the hitbox depending on the %. At 50% you had to hit with the strongest hitbox, at 110% you had to hit with the weakest. Mid hitbox was around 70-90%.

No, but I mean, now at least it has a wider range to kill

 

[Ryusuta]

So, do we have confirmation on any visual changes yet?

 

[Karsticles]

Very happy about the changes.

Issues he still has:
1) Confusion is still really unreliable.
2) Nair ender random.
3) Grab rangelol.
4) Utilt is garbage.
5) Time between Jab1 and Jab2 is too much; DI-able as well.
6) USmash is DI-able, probably still pops people sometimes.
7) Fthrow probably still escapable.
8) Uncharged Shadow Ball still unsafe on hit.
9) Teleport wallbounce SD potential.
10) Opponents can DI out of Nair.

From a balance/programmer stand point. If I was balancing the game according to what I saw online I would make Confusion's behavior while under a platform consistent throughout the characters. Basically change the way the hitboxes work so no character goes higher than another while being tumbled by Confusion.

So how about someone test Battlefield and check if we can still Side-B->U-Smash ZSS under a platform.

Confusion -> Usmash works on Cloud on Battlefield.

 

[Browny]

1) Confusion is still really unreliable.

No it's not, it does the same thing every time. It reflects, it grabs, it gives a third jump. Nothing about it is unreliable. If you want an unreliable move, look at bowsers nair. Confusion is still one of the best moves in the game that if given to any other character without a reflector, would make them leap in the tier list.

4) Utilt is garbage.

Get out. utilt combos into usmash guaranteed. The trick is getting the right spacing. jab 1 can lead into it. If you react fast enough you get a free usmash for landing a jab. That isnt what I call garbage.

6) USmash is DI-able, probably still pops people sometimes.

No its not

7) Fthrow probably still escapable.

Not every character is Yoshi

8) Uncharged Shadow Ball still unsafe on hit.

Why are you firing uncharged shadow balls at point blank, thats your fault

9) Teleport wallbounce SD potential.

Dont teleport into the stage.

I can count on one hand the amount of times I have ever died by the teleport wall bounce and every instance was 100% my fault for trying to teleport into the stage and then snap to the ledge instead of aiming for the ledge.

 

[Karsticles]

I almost gave a serious response, and then I saw the username.

 

[Y2Kay]

I almost gave a serious response, and then I saw the username.

I don't condone callouts or anything, but that was really weak man. Just....respond somewhat seriously or don't post at all

 

[Sonicninja115]

I almost gave a serious response, and then I saw the username.

I made a Nair KB guide a while ago, it is not unreliable...

Confusion forces Cloud to land on BF platforms.

SDI maybe, but DI does not effect which way the opponent is thrown, it also shouldn't allow them to get out. I haven't labbed that part much, but I am 90% sure that he can't DI out of it.

Edit: there was a little controversy about this, but Fair's Landing Lag is 18-14, not 18-16. A person confirmed it in the patch thread.

How is your labbing coming along Chiroz ? I haven't been able to lab the past 6 hours, though I did play a couple of matches.

Edit: current analysis of Mewtwo's combo game.

General. It is more reliable and now counts as a true combo for more moves where it used not too. Multiple combo starters have been added and Uair now strings Ala Mario's Uair.

Uair: better for low percent combos, worse for kill combos. Can string into itself and is rather good for juggling. Falling Uair is easier to hit and the sweetspot is a good combo starter. The upper tip and front tip are yet to be labbed.

Falling Fair trues into Dtilt and Utilt, do I even need to explain?

Fair strings easier.

More Dair combos, thanks Metalex!

Anything new with Bair?

Nair is much easier to combo with, Raykz is probably coming up with a gigantic list.

Long combo strings are now open. Falling Fair-Dtilt-Fair-Falling Nair-Dtilt-Tipper Uair-Tipper Uair-Uair is one among others.

 

[Karsticles]

I made a Nair KB guide a while ago, it is not unreliable...

Confusion forces Cloud to land on BF platforms.

SDI maybe, but DI does not effect which way the opponent is thrown, it also shouldn't allow them to get out. I haven't labbed that part much, but I am 90% sure that he can't DI out of it.

Edit: there was a little controversy about this, but Fair's Landing Lag is 18-14, not 18-16. A person confirmed it in the patch thread.

How is your labbing coming along Chiroz ? I haven't been able to lab the past 6 hours, though I did play a couple of matches.

I don't know why you're telling me that about Cloud, since I just said that.

Full hop Nair is unreliable in which way it spits the opponent. You can control Nair only if you end it early.

I've had a Yoshi DI out of my Usmash and hit me with Nair halfway through the attack. It's only happened once, but it's there. The pop out has happened a lot.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I don't know why you're telling me that about Cloud, since I just said that.

Full hop Nair is unreliable in which way it spits the opponent. You can control Nair only if you end it early.

I've had a Yoshi DI out of my Usmash and hit me with Nair halfway through the attack. It's only happened once, but it's there. The pop out has happened a lot.

It is possible to predict FH, read the guide.

It might've been that Yoshi came out at the early point, there is a possibility of that happening if Mewtwo DI's wrong. I have never had that happen in all my time of testing Nair, input Chiroz ?

I didn't notice you saying anything about confusion on Cloud, woops.

BTW, FF Nair is coming soon.

 

[Karsticles]

It is possible to predict FH, read the guide.

It might've been that Yoshi came out at the early point, there is a possibility of that happening if Mewtwo DI's wrong. I have never had that happen in all my time of testing Nair, input Chiroz ?

I didn't notice you saying anything about confusion on Cloud, woops.

BTW, FF Nair is coming soon.

Yeah, I've read the guide, and it isn't reliable. Every once in a while the opponent will pop out the other end.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yeah, I've read the guide, and it isn't reliable. Every once in a while the opponent will pop out the other end.

Nair is a ridiculously random move. I got spiked by the move before...