Data Mewtwo Moveset/Data Discussion

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Please keep all findings, changes, and questions to this thread. Will update the OP as time goes on.

 

[againiam]

In the tips it mentions that confusion causes longer spin times the higher % your opponent is. When does it true combo into buffered short hop forward air?

 

[@whoknowsforwhat]

2nd hit of nair fast falled props them up like first hit of nair did in sm4sh but not as good. maybe you can get an upsmash, but idk if u can airdodge because i have no way of testing that reliably right now and training mode still doesnt work in this game.

as for the rest of nair it seems to work similarly but not nearly as busted as sm4sh

 

[Proverbs]

What are people's thoughts on Mewtwo's specials? I haven't really found a use for confusion or disable. I always feel like I need to be super close (and therefore vulnerable to a punish) to use them and that there's pretty much always a better option. Shadow Ball is a little more obvious, but I'm having a hard time finding any uses for it not charged. Any thoughts? Definitely trying to mix up my approaches as much as possible!

 

[Ginsai]

What are people's thoughts on Mewtwo's specials? I haven't really found a use for confusion or disable. I always feel like I need to be super close (and therefore vulnerable to a punish) to use them and that there's pretty much always a better option. Shadow Ball is a little more obvious, but I'm having a hard time finding any uses for it not charged. Any thoughts? Definitely trying to mix up my approaches as much as possible!

Take advantage of the dash cancelling that is in Ultimate, you don’t need specials that our only use for situations. Honestly down b is something I never use, just cause you have to be staring them in the eye to land it. I’m sure I’ll get it down, but for now I keep building on Mewtwo. Uncharged is good off stage to bait the opponent to make the option to recover low which usually leads to a spike or fair if they recover high. I usually tend to use uncharged shadow ball to bait either a jump or shield option. But yeah pretty much doing shadow ball most of the game. His other specials are situational and aren’t nearly reliable around his play like shadow ball. I’m sure I can find some odd uses for down and side special. I just need more practice time.

 

[Ajani]

Hi there,

I am analyzing M2s frame data in detail. Would you lovely folks be able to confirm with me what are his guranteed kill options outside of smash attack?

 

[Downshift]

So I never found much of a use for Disable in Smash4. Given its limited range, start up, end lag, general high-risk/low reward natuare, and my inability to perform the footstool-Disable glitch/exploit, I never used it in serious matches.

However, I just discovered something in Training with Invincibility frames set to Display...

Frame 9:

Frame 10:

Frame 16:

Frame 17:

Mewtwo has invincibility during Disable.


Not just a quick two frame window either, a full 7 frames. If I'm counting frames correctly, Disable's projectile comes out on frame 16, and Mewtwo has invincibility from frames 10 to 16, so a total of 7 frames. The move seems to have a FAF of 53 frames though, so a lot of endlag that's not invincible.
Still, this means if you time it, you can tank an incoming hit and immediately punish with Disable only a couple frames later.

Was messing around in training with the Mewtwo CPU charging side smash and while the timing needs to be right, the invincibility does protect me from the side smash as Disable stuns the CPU an instant later while I'm still surrounded by inert dark energy from the smash.
Also did some run up-Disables while it was firing off uncharged shadow balls and they phased right through. No luck with a fully charged shadow ball since it's hitbox overlaps our hurtbox for more than the 6 frames of invincibility, same reason it hits spot dodges.

I don't know if this was the case in Smash4 but I literally never heard anything about it, even with so many pro players labbing him out after all the patches, so I doubt it.
Hopefully this buff can turn this move into a more viable approach option or even a defensive option rather than just a situational hype KO gimmick. I really don't like having Down-B more or less wasted on this character.

 

[Browny]

That's definitely useful as a counter to landing aerials. Things like marth/chrom fair/nair shorthop. They time it so that the hitbox comes out like, no more than 3 frames before hitting the ground so you can tank the hit and disable as a punish to predictable approaches and even better, it counters the 'tomahawk' approach at the same time.

That's definitely something worth trying to implement in gameplay. Remember, sometimes the goal isn't to necessarily hit enemies with attacks, but to make them change their preferred playstyle because they now fear an option. It's just like when a Samus has a full charge shot. The enemy completely alters their playstyle and is extremely careful whereas they might have been throwing out aerials to space all day without a care in the world.

If an enemy is shown that their usual unga bunga playstle has now moved from low risk high reward, to medium risk high reward, they may be pressured to use less oppressive options.

 

[Krysco]

In the tips it mentions that confusion causes longer spin times the higher % your opponent is. When does it true combo into buffered short hop forward air?

Doesn't seem to ever guarantee into sh fair. I tested it in Training against Isabelle with her buffering jump and Mewtwo buffering shield after connecting a Confusion. Assuming I understand visual ques properly, the first frame on a double jump shows the double jump 'ring' below the jumper and the second frame of shield is when the shield bubble appears. At 999% the frame advantage was only +7 for Mewtwo. Not sure on the frame data for fair but it was frame 6 in Sm4sh and jumpsquat is 3 frames. Doesn't even seem utilt or usmash would connect either since they appear to come out on frames 8 and 9 respectively. Jab comes out frame 6 so it can connect but it's characters dependent. Isabelle and Ridley get put too high after Confusion to be hit by jab but Bowser can be hit. I tested it on Bowser at 130% and I actually managed to hit him on the same frame he double jumped.

Decided to test against Diddy to see how fast Mewtwo's item toss is and it's too slow (frame 9 for item toss forward) BUT I decided to test aerial Confusion since that lets Mewtwo do fair right after without having to go through jumpsquat and it did connect at 130% even with Diddy being able to double jump first. Tested it at 140% on Diddy and he wasn't even able to double jump before the fair connected. Aerial Confusion also has the benefit of leaving the victim lower in comparison to grounded Confusion.

 

[SUBJECT:10008_NOT_FOUND]

ftilt angle?

 

[Iremia]

I got impatient waiting on Kurogane Hammer for Mewtwo frame data. Below are some findings.

Mewtwo Frame Data



The first number listed is the first active hit box.


Normals

Jab 1 - 5, completes 21, FAF 22

Down Tilt - 6, completes 23, FAF 24 (IASA)

Forward Tilt - 10, completes 35, FAF 36

Up Tilt - 8 in front, 12 behind, completes 29, FAF 30

Down Smash - 21, completes 58, FAF 59

Forward Smash - 19, completes 66, FAF 67

Up Smash - 10, completes 97, FAF 98



Aerials

Nair - 7, completes 49, FAF 50; Landing Lag 10

Fair - 7, completes 39, FAF 40; Landing Lag 8

Bair - 13-17, completes 39, FAF 40; Landing Lag 10 (Extra testing, I couldn't get a hit box on 18)

Uair - 10, completes 39, FAF 40; Landing Lag 8

Dair - 15, completes 47, FAF 48; Landing Lag 11



Specials

Shadow Ball - N/A

Confusion - 12, completes 40, FAF 41

Teleport - Invincible 9-20 ?

Disable - Invincible 9-15, 16 hit box active, completes 52, FAF 53



Misc

Shield Drop- 11, head invincible 1-5

Grab - 7

Dash Grab - 10

Dash - can change directions 1-6, completes 14, FAF 15

Roll Dodge Forward - 29 frames to complete, invincible 4-15

Roll Dodge Back - 36 to complete, invincible 5-16

Spot Dodge - 25 to complete, invincible 3-17, Interruptible with attack at frame 19, attack starts frame 20

Ledge Roll - Invincible 1-27

Neutral Air Dodge - Completes on 51, Invincible 3-22?

Direction Air Dodge (Horizontal) - Completes on 85?, Invincible 3-22?

I would have to test the dodges with items as Mewtwo shrinks and enlarges when performing an air dodge. It's difficult to tell when the invulnerability start/ends.


Universal Misc.

Shield - 2

Shield Drop- 11

Ledge Release (Hold Back) - release ledge on 20

Ledge Trumped - Starts on second frame of 2 frame ledge grab, trump completes 28, FAF 29 from the trump

Mewtwo and Ledge Trumping

As the final ledge trump position is weight dependent, ledge trumps are character specific. I believe the slowest air dodges in the game are ~5 frame startup, but correct me if I’m wrong.

Ledge Trumping can be weird and convuluted, especially with Mewtwo. It is heavily dependent on how you grab ledge and when the invincibility starts. You have to wait ~20 frames from grabbing ledge to releasing ledge before you can act with a double jump aerial. Mewtwo’s Bair is generally slow-mid speed and starts below him. Because of those 20 frames, Bair will not always connect especially if the opponent’s air dodge is fresh and they buffer air dodge. However, if you time the trump so it happens within ~8 frames after the opponent grabs ledge, you can start your trump and burn up some the ledge invincibility time simultaneously.

The math is fuzzy because when you and the opponent grab ledge is almost always different. I also measured different amounts of frames for the trump to actually start which is weird Anywhere from 14-19 frames after both players are on ledge with invincibility.

It can give you as many as 14 frames of leeway to get your double jump Bair to connect. The trump already makes you +7 when performed as late as possible. With another 14 frames (assuming it’s frame perfect) you have ~21 frames to get your double jump Bair to connect which will take anywhere from 15-17 frames based on enemy final trumped position.

Ledge Trump TL;DR: The earlier you grab ledge, the easier it will be to double jump Bair and have it connect. Doing it too late will grant the opponent the ability to air dodge out.


EDIT: 3/22/19, I was wrong about down b, it’s first active hit box is frame 16.
EDIT: 3.0.0 - Jab is better by 1 frame and included new ledge roll data.