Mewtwo complaint thread

[Karsticles]

I would love that Confusion is more of a Ganon SideB, that you can only tech the landing but you cant jump/attack before reaching the ground. a miss tech will lead to a jablock

I like this. Upgrade our command grab to Ganondorf levels.

Then upgrade Dorf's to be untechable.

Everyone is happy!

Also, this may be placebo, but does anyone else feel like characters fall out of Nair more often after this patch?

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

Ever since Day 1, I said that this character will have no chance at being viable the way he is. A character this light and this big of a target will NEVER be a viable threat in a Smash Bros. game. Let alone a character with such a horrendous grab range on top of being light and a huge target. And I'm glad some of you are seeing this as well.

This should have been a character where you say "yes, he is so much better than he was in Melee". Instead, we have a character where you say "uh, yeah, I guess he's better". Looking at how Roy was treated compared to Mewtwo pisses me off even more. He got practically only buffs, where as with Mewtwo, they made his most crippling flaw even more crippling. Oh, he has more KO power? Well who gives a **** if you are going to be dying, especially with the stupid rage mechanic, way before your opponent does? Oh, he will be able to handle the bad characters and/or the characters with poor mobility? *clap clap clap clap clap*

As far as I'm concerned, the only way you be really good with this character is to be gimmicky with the teleport and be all defensive and lame. But for me, being a more aggressive player, when it gets to that point, then who cares. I care about being Mewtwo, and the character that is in the game right now is not Mewtwo, it is just a pathetic, glass cannon piece of ****. If you make him heavier, give him a better grab range, and fix a few of minor things, he is not going to be an unbalanced character in the slightest. Besides, Samus is floaty, and is one of the game's heaviest characters. So why couldn't this have been done? Oh that's right, because it is Sakurai.

Since I am mostly a Melee player, all I really was looking forward to in this game was Mewtwo. Unless they actually fix his major flaws (weight, grab range) in the future patches, then I really no interest left as far as Smash 4 goes because this character will only be low to mid tier at best the way he is. And the fact that Mewtwo, of all characters, isn't a threat in a fighting game, is just disgraceful.

 

[Chiroz]

Ever since Day 1, I said that this character will have no chance at being viable the way he is. A character this light and this big of a target will NEVER be a viable threat in a Smash Bros. game. Let alone a character with such a horrendous grab range on top of being light and a huge target. And I'm glad some of you are seeing this as well.

Rosalina would like a word with you

 

[Xzsmmc]

Rosalina would like a word with you

Mewtwo can't say '**** you' to basic game mechanics.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

Look, you guys wanted Mewtwo. Now that we have him, you start complaining. It's either this or that. This community needs to make up their mind. ALL characters have weaknesses, not every character can be perfect. Turn those weaknesses into possibilities. Not every character is going to be as perfect as you want them to be. I don't know when this community will realize that this is Smash 4, not Melee.

Instead of complaining, get good. How do you think a character like Pikachu (who was said to SUCK during the 3DS days) managed to become top tier? Because people actually used him and learned techniques. Get real people. Your character has been granted back to you, and you should be happy about it. Remember the phrase "Ya get what cha' pay for?"

Ungrateful people...

I know this is a late reply, but ok genius, let's look back at Melee. Pikachu was considered a bad character at the start of that game's existence, just like he was at the start of the 3DS days like you said. But let's see, who else was considered a bad character at the start of Melee's existence. Hmm....who was that again?......hmm......OH THAT'S RIGHT, MEWTWO WAS! Well what do you know?! And how have both of those characters turned out in Melee? Pikachu is now high tier, and Mewtwo is STILL near the bottom of tier list, still not viable, and still never will be viable. And the same thing is going to happen with Mewtwo in Smash 4 as well if the way he is right now.

So yeah, you can probably trick someone else with your BS argument of "oh, well Pikachu was considered bad but now he's good, so just wait for the metagame to develop and he'll be fine", but that's not going to work on me. Yes, all characters have weaknesses, but you have to understand that most characters do not have the kind of crippling weaknesses that Mewtwo has, and those that do are not going to be viable characters either. It's not that easy to just say "well all characters have weaknesses, just turn those into possibilities". It doesn't matter if it is Melee or Smash 4, that just not always going to happen.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

Rosalina would like a word with you

Rosalina has Luma with her. Mewtwo has nothing. Now what was your point again?

 

[Chiroz]

Rosalina has Luma with her. Mewtwo has nothing. Now what was your point again?

My point is that you said: "No char with that weight, grab range and size can be good in Smash ever". Rosa has all of the above and she's still good, undoubtedly top 5 and arguably top 3. So yea, there are ways to be good while having all of Mewtwo's attributes, Mewtwo just doesn't have them.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

My point is that you said: "No char with that weight, grab range and size can be good in Smash ever". Rosa has all of the above and she's still good, undoubtedly top 5 and arguably top 3. So yea, there are ways to be good while having all of Mewtwo's attributes, Mewtwo just doesn't have them.

Rosalina sucks when she is by herself though, right?

 

[Mightyno.M]

Rosalina sucks when she is by herself though, right?

Not really she suffers a lot more than some people are willing to agree but even without lumw she is still threatening and/or annoying enough to last until luma returns but it is character dependent

 

[MagiusNecros]

Rosalina cheats with her dumb tofu pillow. Her dumb invisible rolls. And unchallengable aerials. And suck you up gravity field.

Unlike Bowser we can't just punch her face to win.

 

[Chiroz]

Rosalina sucks when she is by herself though, right?

She doesn't suck, but she was balanced around having Luma as a mechanic.

If you think there can't be a character that's light, huge and has a horrible grab range that isn't good then I invite you to try this. Imagine if Jab true comboed into Disable and Confusion gave us frame advantage, even in the air. There are different ways to make a character more powerful or less powerful, certain properties are better than others but they don't by themselves make a character OP or garbage, it's a conglomeration of things.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

She doesn't suck, but she was balanced around having Luma as a mechanic.

If you think there can't be a character that's light, huge and has a horrible grab range that isn't good then I invite you to try this. Imagine if Jab true comboed into Disable and Confusion gave us frame advantage, even in the air. There are different ways to make a character more powerful or less powerful, certain properties are better than others but they don't by themselves make a character OP or garbage, it's a conglomeration of things.

That's true, but it is fair to say though that Rosalina by herself wouldn't be as good if not for having Luma as a part of her character. So what I said still is kind of true, because those traits sure haven't worked for Zelda and Mewtwo. But yes you are right that a conglomeration of things make a character good or bad, and not the traits by themselves, so I should have clarified that a little more.

 

[Karsticles]

I love that this is the most active thread on this board outside of the Social Thread.

 

[Chiroz]

I love that this is the most active thread on this board outside of the Social Thread.

There's a reason for that, lol.

I am hoping Mewtwo gets some buff in the next patch but while else I am just practicing other stuff and chars.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

I love that this is the most active thread on this board outside of the Social Thread.

Yeah, and rightfully so. This character sucks right now. Give him some buffs, and I'll be back. Meanwhile I'll be practicing my Melee Marth.

 

[LRodC]

Well let's be constructive about Mewtwo's flaws then instead of just complaining. That does nothing. Aside from just Mewtwo's weight, what would you buff about Mewtwo to make him more viable? I'm sure we would all like him to be good, so how would you improve him besides the obvious "give him more weight"? Like it or not, it seems like Sakurai intended for Mewtwo to be a lightweight and even references it in his trophy.

Personally, I'd buff his weight to be 80 (still light but not balloon weight), speed up his air speed, make his back air and up air faster and give them more accurate hitboxes, make his up and back throws more powerful (kill 20% earlier for both) so that people fear grabs more (and to give a reason for his short grab) and I'd make down throw combo more reliably into his aerials. Perhaps Confusion could be buffed to give Mewtwo a frame advantage, but that may make him one of the best characters in the game due to his follow up potential. Everything else I don't have huge issues with.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

Personally, I'd buff his weight to be 80 (still light but not balloon weight), speed up his air speed, make his back air and up air faster and give them more accurate hitboxes, make his up and back throws more powerful (kill 20% earlier for both) so that people fear grabs more (and to give a reason for his short grab) and I'd make down throw combo more reliably into his aerials. Perhaps Confusion could be buffed to give Mewtwo a frame advantage, but that may make him one of the best characters in the game due to his follow up potential.

Sounds good to me, you're the boss.

 

[RayNoire]

Things I really want fixed:

All tail attacks hitting through the whole animation (especially Utilt and Upair; maybe Bair but I actually don't have too much problem with the move)

Dsmash having the hitbox it looks like it has/had in Melee

All grab hitboxes matching the animation

Fair hitbox duration matching the animation

Teleport-cide fixed
__________

Things that would be nice:

Jab and grab not whiffing on short characters (not really inconsistent with animations, but it's kind of a big disadvantage)

Uncharged Shadow Ball having slightly increased hitstun

Confusion frame advantage increasing to 0

Teleport reducing startup frames/fixing intangibility (I'm not actually sure what its problem is, but I get hit after the sound a lot)

Fsmash not whiffing up close (maybe add a windbox to the startup to push people out into the blast)
__________

Things I don't care about:

Weight
__________

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

Things I don't care about:

Weight
__________

Why do you not care about his weight? I'm intrigued as to why.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Why do you not care about his weight? I'm intrigued as to why.

Might make him not die as much.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

Might make him not die as much.

Being heavier will make him die more?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Being heavier will make him die more?

I have a knack for sarcasm.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

I have a knack for sarcasm.

Oh, ok. lol

 

[RayNoire]

Why do you not care about his weight? I'm intrigued as to why.

I'm fine with having weight as a weakness. Mewtwo's moves are pretty jacked as is to compensate--it's just that they're so buggy that a lot of really potent stuff that should work just doesn't.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

I'm fine with having weight as a weakness. Mewtwo's moves are pretty jacked as is to compensate--it's just that they're so buggy that a lot of really potent stuff that should work just doesn't.

I'm alright with him being in the lightweight category, it's just him being THAT light, AKA lighter than f'ing Kirby and Game & Watch, that I have a problem. Him being 80 like lightningrodc if fine with me, but being a giant balloon won't make anything else compensate for it as far as I'm concerned. That's not just a weakness, that's a HUGE, easily exploitable weakness.

 

[RayNoire]

I'm alright with him being in the lightweight category, it's just him being THAT light, AKA lighter than f'ing Kirby and Game & Watch, that I have a problem. Him being 80 like lightningrodc if fine with me, but being a giant balloon won't make anything else compensate for it as far as I'm concerned. That's not just a weakness, that's a HUGE, easily exploitable weakness.

I mean, I wouldn't mind a bit more weight, but not at the expense of basically any other change they could make.

We should raise awareness about the hitbox issues that basically no one knows about, because not only are the devs much more likely to make those changes, but those changes will help us way more than a little weight boost.

 

[LRodC]

I do agree that weight isn't as huge of an issue as people make and there are more pressing matters, but more would be pretty nice and I certainly wouldn't complain. If I were in charge of balancing I'd make him around Mario weight from the start, but I'm not, so we have lightweight Mewtwo.

Either way, I want Mewtwo to be a viable character in some form and weight is a fine weakness as long as he has combos, power, range, and mobility to make up for that. As he is right now, I don't think it's quite enough. Not bottom tier or anything (high-mid low IMO at the moment), but missing some important things to make him a true competitor. Hopefully some buffs come our way because Mewtwo deserves the best.

 

[Karsticles]

Maybe we should, as a group, come up with a changelog that we all agree on. Here is my list:

Tail: Has no hurtbox, ever.

Forward Dodge: Total active frames reduced.
Back Dodge: Total active frames reduced.

Jab: Jab1 transitions to Jab2 faster.
Jab1 no longer whiffs on short/crouching characters.

Grab: Grab range increased to better match the animation.
Grab no longer whiffs on short/crouching characters.

Up Throw: Knockback increased.
Forward Throw: Damage increased, characters can no longer evade the shadow balls.
Down Throw: Recovery significantly reduced.

Up Tilt: Startup and recovery reduced. Hitbox now matches the full tail animation.

Forward Tilt: Startup and recovery reduced.

Forward Smash: No longer has a blind spot directly in front of Mewtwo.

Down Smash: Lower vertical hitbox expanded.

Up Smash: Vacuum effect on hit increased; characters can no longer pop out.

Forward Air: Lower vertical hitbox expanded to match the animation.

Back Air: The animation and hitbox are now identical. Landing lag reduced.

Neutral Air: Lower vertical hitbox expanded to hit shorter characters. Landing lag significantly reduced.

Disable: Causes significant shield damage.

Confusion: Now results in enough frame advantage on hit to link Up Tilt. Startup reduced to 8 frames.

Shadow Ball: Charging animation now has a hitbox. Firing animation from neutral has decreased startup. Knockback and hitstun increased for all power levels.

Teleport: Post-teleport slide removed. Mewtwo is now completely invulnerable during his travel between departure and arrival. Recovery reduced slightly.

 

[RayNoire]

^^We should narrow that down some though so that the most important changes are emphasized. For example Bair doesn't really need less landing lag when it already SHACs (Shaqs?)

Here's an interesting exercise. Suppose they were to buff Mewtwo so heavily that they got nervous and decided to give him another nerf as a trade-off. What (semi-substantial) nerf would we mind the least? I found this kind of tough because I use all of Mewtwo's moves.

 

[pikazz]

the only thing I really dont care about is the weight, but I do care about the speed. some of his attacks are too slow to be good

Yeah, and rightfully so. This character sucks right now. Give him some buffs, and I'll be back. Meanwhile I'll be practicing my Melee Marth.

 

[LRodC]

That's not a bad list but I don't think everything in it is necessary and are just "gravy" changes instead of necessary ones. For example, the dodge rolls having less active frames isn't entirely necessary since we're one of the few characters that can short hop air dodge with no lag. If I had to narrow it down:

His aerials, IMO, need no more landing lag changes. They're pretty good as is and they can all be autocanceled except for n-air (and that was just reduced).

His tail shouldn't have a hurtbox.

His attacks need to match the animations better. From grab, to forward air, to back air, to forward smash, to tilts, they should all be improved to match the animations. This is what I think the most necessary changes are.

Throws I think should be powered up (specifically up and back throw) and down throw should have a little bit more hitstun. Forward throw is fine as is.

Confusion having a frame advantage of zero would be appreciated but I'm not sure it will happen.

Up air and back air should be sped up slightly. More so up air.

Disable, in my opinion, is fine as is. I don't think the shield damage is necessary and it probably won't happen. It's already an excellent punish and was significantly buffed from Melee already. It wouldn't break the character but there are more important changes I feel.

Down smash having a bigger lower hitbox would be good. It would give it more of a reason to be used instead of forward smash (although I'm one of the few that actually uses down smash more).

Shadow Ball should have some increased hitstun on the lower charged version so that Mewtwo can follow up easier, similar to Luigi. Not necessary, but it would help.

That's pretty much what I would change aside from weight. If Sakurai insists on the weight being 72, these changes would compensate enough I feel.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

You damn right I am.

the only thing I really dont care about is the weight, but I do care about the speed. some of his attacks are too slow to be good

Well of course you don't care about weight, you're a Jigglypuff main. lol

 

[pikazz]

Well of course you don't care about weight, you're a Jigglypuff main. lol

and? being lightweight teach you more of dodging attacks and being more on the aggresive defensive which is wonderful for Jigglypuff and Mewtwo.

asking for more weight shows that you want to be hit instead for being the attacker 'D'

 

[MagiusNecros]

Unlike jigglypuff. Mewtwo can't crouch to save his life.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

asking for more weight shows that you want to be hit instead for being the attacker 'D'

No, asking for more weight means that I want to be able to go in and attack without the fear of being sent flying by any hit, not because I want to get hit. Because I'm a Marth and Fox player in Melee, and that's what I do, I'm aggressive on offense. But you can't do that with Mewtwo because they made him an f'ing balloon, and a nice strong attack would make that balloon pop if you try to go in. I wouldn't bother with this character if being a balloon was the character archetype already, like Jigglypuff is, but that is NOT what Mewtwo is, which is why I'm constantly complaining about this. And being overly defensive is boring to me.

and? being lightweight teach you more of dodging attacks and being more on the aggresive defensive which is wonderful for Jigglypuff and Mewtwo.

Yeah, well you see, that works well for Jigglypuff because she is so small so she can avoid attacks much easier, and all those jumps allow you space attacks easier. Mewtwo however is giant target that dies at Jigglypuff levels, and doesn't have as good of a spacing ability, so it's a lot harder to avoid attacks than you make it out to be. And because of the damn rage mechanic, it's harder for Mewtwo to end stocks because the blast zones are bigger, and every other character in the game will be able to end his stock before he could end yours because of his weight. And at least Puff has Rest, a quick and easy stock ender, whereas Mewtwo has no such attack. Again, no chance at viability with the way he is, because he will NOT succeed under these attributes. Mark my words.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Mewtwo wants to get an attack in and apply pressure till his foe is dead.

This would work if his attacks were faster and if opponents couldn't air dodge everything. Even a Bidoof can air dodge perfectly.

 

[A-money2121]

I know this is a late reply, but ok genius, let's look back at Melee. Pikachu was considered a bad character at the start of that game's existence, just like he was at the start of the 3DS days like you said. But let's see, who else was considered a bad character at the start of Melee's existence. Hmm....who was that again?......hmm......OH THAT'S RIGHT, MEWTWO WAS! Well what do you know?! And how have both of those characters turned out in Melee? Pikachu is now high tier, and Mewtwo is STILL near the bottom of tier list, still not viable, and still never will be viable. And the same thing is going to happen with Mewtwo in Smash 4 as well if the way he is right now.

So yeah, you can probably trick someone else with your BS argument of "oh, well Pikachu was considered bad but now he's good, so just wait for the metagame to develop and he'll be fine", but that's not going to work on me. Yes, all characters have weaknesses, but you have to understand that most characters do not have the kind of crippling weaknesses that Mewtwo has, and those that do are not going to be viable characters either. It's not that easy to just say "well all characters have weaknesses, just turn those into possibilities". It doesn't matter if it is Melee or Smash 4, that just not always going to happen.

And "instead of complaining, get good"? YOU CAN'T! Not Pikachu level good, oh no. There is no way in hell that will ever happen with the way he is right now. I'm complaining, like maybe people are, so that maybe these inescapable flaws will be fixed in future patches, because that is the only way this character has a chance. Even if you fix these flaws, he is still going to be a character that you have to really work hard with to get good, but at least if his major flaws are patched in any way, your hard work can actually pay off, because right now, no matter how hard you work with him, Mewtwo will never be a viable threat.

And personally, with him being this light and this big of a target, he is just not fun to play as. So even if he has a ounce of viability in him the way he is right now, I'm not going to be wasting my time trying to get good with a character that I don't enjoy playing as. The character that I wanted back was Mewtwo, and this lame, glass cannon piece of **** is not Mewtwo. So I will never be happy about it, sorry pal

Jesus, take a chill pill, dude. If you seriously get PO'd that easily because of a post, then you really gotta learn how to grow up.

Alrighty, let us see what we have collected, shall we? FIRST of all, this was posted a LONG time ago. Nobody knew CRAP about Mewtwo because this thread and my post were literally posted the same day of Mewtwo's Club Nintendo release - give or take a few days. OF COURSE nobody knew Mewtwo's meta-game, he's only lived for half a day! But judging from what you've stated above, you think my opinion was primarily targeted to his metagame. The main objective of my post was to get people to shut about his flaws and figure out his advantages, because it was only his first day, after all; you couldn't figure out a decent tier spot or Mewtwo meta game by playing him only two hours. That's why I was comparing Pikachu to Mewtwo. Pikachu in the early days was considered trash, so I attempted to convince people not to give up on day one and see if Mewtwo received the "Pikachu treatment." As time grew and grew, Mewtwo's meta-game has reached its conclusion, and he wasn't as amazing as we hoped he would be. Look, I don't expect Mewtwo to be top-tier or anything, but one thing that ticks me off is when I see people jump to conclusions on the first day (it's true, deal with it). I've known for a WHILE now that Mewtwo is not "Pikachu level good," and I'm ok with that. I know that he's light as a thin slice of paper, and I learnt that AFTER I posted that post.

Secondly, you're acting as if that post was directly aimed at you. I couldn't give a single crap if you hate Mewtwo. Now that his meta-game is discovered, I can see why people dislike Mewtwo, and I'm totally OK with that. I myself ADMIT that there are A LOT of character who's skill surpasses that of Mewtwo's - but I love him too much to put him down. So in conclusion, my post was only to URGE people to find Mewtwo's attributes so that he can grow as a character (again, it was only his first days). I'm not telling people to "play Mewtwo and don't stop till your amazing with him" - because if you seriously got that out of my message, then buy new glasses or SOMETHING that'll let you read messages correctly.

And PLEASE get a prescription for a chill pill. I've never met a more butthurt scum on these boards in all my time here.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

And PLEASE get a prescription for a chill pill. I've never met a more butthurt scum on these boards in all my time here.

You haven't? Hell yeah! I'm breaking some records already in my short time here. Sorry for the rant, I come from YouTube and that kind of stuff is common. So um.....no hard feelings?

 

[A-money2121]

You haven't? Hell yeah! I'm breaking some records already in my short time here. Sorry for the rant, I come from YouTube and that kind of stuff is common. So um.....no hard feelings?

I suppose I could've been a little tense myself, so I apologize for that. And Youtube? Yup... I've been there, and I know how things work, lol. No hard feelings.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Enough of this foolishness.