Mewtwo complaint thread

[Psyruby]

Just came by to see what everyone's opinions were. Surprised to see so many people just gripe on and on about his weight.

Does it suck that it's that low? Yes. Does that stop him from being competitively viable? Not really. Mewtwo is just a very polarized character, meaning he has a some glaring strengths and some glaring weaknesses.

On the plus side:
His range beats any non swordsman excluding DK
Good anti juggling options in teleport and confusion
...

On the down side:
Doesn't have a fast dash so his approach options are limited
...

I love Mewtwo, and I use him, but Teleport and Confusion are not anti juggle options as they take 9+ frames to come out. His Air Dodge is his only reliable anti juggle option as it comes out on frame 2. His Dash is actually fast, this is a huge misconception due to his size. He is as fast as Wii Fit Trainer(Number 19 in run speed) and only SLIGHTLY(and I mean SLIGHTLY) slower than DK. Finally, small nitpick, but Ganon has more range due to his 4 foot long legs.

 

[AmishTechnology]

That's 6 kill moves. SIX!

Quality over quantity. F/D-Smash aren't exactly reliable, and you'll land maybe one down-B at most in an entire set against a good player. Ike has tons of kill options too... but none of them are particularly good honestly because they're all so slow.

Mewtwo does have some great options. Throw is his most obvious one. However, his most powerful attack, Up-Smash, is disgustingly strong and is actually a lot more practical to land with short hop feint versus falling/aerial enemy -> bait enemy airdodge -> Up-Smash the airdodge lag, or the U-Tilt to U-Smash (not 100% sure if it's just bad DI or something, but I think jab -> U-Smash works on some characters too).

I honestly believe Mewtwo could be Rosalina-tier if they just made his jab as stupidly good as someone like Falcon and his nair as stupidly as good as Mario's dair or something. I'm thinking even faster jab with slightly longer range and nair that always autocancels but also has that "oomph" at the end like Mario's dair or Mewtwo's melee nair. Making nair that "brainless" safe overall option would make him so much more powerful in the neutral. I would ask for a grab range increase but what I've already written is probably pushing it already lol. It's like they want him to be the Akuma of this game, but other characters still have better offense and pressure than him via stupidly good/1-frame animations and frame data and whatnot.

He's "evasive" with the sneaky airdodge, side-B aerial momentum shift, and Teleport... but Teleport's landing lag is atrocious. But that may just be us being too used to Melee Mewtwo, seems you should have your feed planted on the ground by the end of the teleport rather than floating above since it doesn't cancel out like in Melee but instead INCREASES the landing lag. Time to test that out more. Oh, and still learning how to ledge cancel teleports... stuff is really hard! Just learned today that holding down after Teleport doesn't send you straight down... you go slightly forward, woops so many SDs.

Oh well. I think Mewtwo has a particular weakness against Meta Knight and Pikachu, not too sure about Kirby yet. However, I think Mewtwo is the absolute best character against Jigglypuff, I swear that MU is like 70:30 lol. His strong points (range, raw power, aerial maneuverability/recovery) REALLY shine in that match up and, because he's ungimpable and Puff isn't exactly a combo character against other floaties, Mewtwo is rather durable in this matchup. Yeah you get rested if you whiff the U-Smash, but that beast KO's at like 80% without rage lol. Your fair is nearly as safe as Sheik's fair but with much more reward in that matchup. Do blind fairs when you expect the Puff to short hop, you'll beat him... If not, just move backwards in the air to space yourself and hopefully you can shield by the time you land.

Falcon is tough for Mewtwo, but I actually don't think he's even in Mewtwo's bottom 3 MUs. I think MK, Pika, and Fox take that crown. Actually, Mewtwo truly does dish out the pain once he gains initiative, especially on the edge. Falcon's jab does beat literally everything though lol.

I repeat myself, Puff is almost certainly his easiest MU. After that, I'm not too sure because I haven't grinded him enough to eventually meet good players for each character.

 

[Demon-oni]

I love Mewtwo, and I use him, but Teleport and Confusion are not anti juggle options as they take 9+ frames to come out. His Air Dodge is his only reliable anti juggle option as it comes out on frame 2. His Dash is actually fast, this is a huge misconception due to his size. He is as fast as Wii Fit Trainer(Number 19 in run speed) and only SLIGHTLY(and I mean SLIGHTLY) slower than DK. Finally, small nitpick, but Ganon has more range due to his 4 foot long legs.

Not all anti-juggle options need to be instantaneous or even relatively quick. Anti Juggle =/= anti combo. Samus down b is garbage for everything except anti juggle, and I'd argue it's relatively slow. True, faster could always be better, but that's why it's an option rather than a "he's an unkillable god screw this move" tool. Anti juggle tools merely just need to be able to throw the opponent off you when they're trying to track your air movement so they can't continue to get free hits. And D tilt outranges Ganon's legs if spaced properly. It beats most rolls for god's sake. Didn't really pay much attention to his dash I'll admit. I have Mewtwo as a sub myself.

And Amish, a tip for teleport cancelling, the closer you are to the ground when holding directly down, the more you'll end up moving forward and jetting yourself off stage.

 

[meleebrawler]

Quality over quantity. F/D-Smash aren't exactly reliable, and you'll land maybe one down-B at most in an entire set against a good player. Ike has tons of kill options too... but none of them are particularly good honestly because they're all so slow.

Mewtwo does have some great options. Throw is his most obvious one. However, his most powerful attack, Up-Smash, is disgustingly strong and is actually a lot more practical to land with short hop feint versus falling/aerial enemy -> bait enemy airdodge -> Up-Smash the airdodge lag, or the U-Tilt to U-Smash (not 100% sure if it's just bad DI or something, but I think jab -> U-Smash works on some characters too).

I honestly believe Mewtwo could be Rosalina-tier if they just made his jab as stupidly good as someone like Falcon and his nair as stupidly as good as Mario's dair or something. I'm thinking even faster jab with slightly longer range and nair that always autocancels but also has that "oomph" at the end like Mario's dair or Mewtwo's melee nair. Making nair that "brainless" safe overall option would make him so much more powerful in the neutral. I would ask for a grab range increase but what I've already written is probably pushing it already lol. It's like they want him to be the Akuma of this game, but other characters still have better offense and pressure than him via stupidly good/1-frame animations and frame data and whatnot.

He's "evasive" with the sneaky airdodge, side-B aerial momentum shift, and Teleport... but Teleport's landing lag is atrocious. But that may just be us being too used to Melee Mewtwo, seems you should have your feed planted on the ground by the end of the teleport rather than floating above since it doesn't cancel out like in Melee but instead INCREASES the landing lag. Time to test that out more. Oh, and still learning how to ledge cancel teleports... stuff is really hard! Just learned today that holding down after Teleport doesn't send you straight down... you go slightly forward, woops so many SDs.

Oh well. I think Mewtwo has a particular weakness against Meta Knight and Pikachu, not too sure about Kirby yet. However, I think Mewtwo is the absolute best character against Jigglypuff, I swear that MU is like 70:30 lol. His strong points (range, raw power, aerial maneuverability/recovery) REALLY shine in that match up and, because he's ungimpable and Puff isn't exactly a combo character against other floaties, Mewtwo is rather durable in this matchup. Yeah you get rested if you whiff the U-Smash, but that beast KO's at like 80% without rage lol. Your fair is nearly as safe as Sheik's fair but with much more reward in that matchup. Do blind fairs when you expect the Puff to short hop, you'll beat him... If not, just move backwards in the air to space yourself and hopefully you can shield by the time you land.

Falcon is tough for Mewtwo, but I actually don't think he's even in Mewtwo's bottom 3 MUs. I think MK, Pika, and Fox take that crown. Actually, Mewtwo truly does dish out the pain once he gains initiative, especially on the edge. Falcon's jab does beat literally everything though lol.

I repeat myself, Puff is almost certainly his easiest MU. After that, I'm not too sure because I haven't grinded him enough to eventually meet good players for each character.

Disable is deceptively useful. @ Chiroz has determined that it actually outranges dtilt, and it starts up faster than
both fsmash and dsmash, on top of being able to start it in the air letting you move while using it.

Saying Mewtwo is ungimpable against Jiggly is a bit of a stretch, yes a smart player can usually avoid Jiggly's
gimp attempts, but if she smacks you during your second jump it's most likely game over. Otherwise Jiggly's
air speed lends itself well to baiting so you can't be reckless with power moves, but nair can keep her at bay for a
bit since she doesn't really have the range to beat or trade consistently with it.

Haven't played a good Meta Knight with Mewtwo, but it honestly can't be that bad when Mewtwo outranges, like...
everything MK has. Yeah, he can combo you badly if you mess up and kill Mewtwo fairly easily with Shuttle Loop,
but his main game is just basically trying to dance just outside your effective range and punish mistakes with dash
attack/grab, which would normally be very frustrating, but luckily Mewtwo has a projectile so he doesn't need to commit too
much. And if coming back against Jigglypuff is easy, Meta Knight is a cakewalk. Just watch for that fsmash at the edge.

 

[MagiusNecros]

His wonky jump physics on that 2nd jump and a couple hitboxes not matching the animation are all that irritate me. As well as his grab having to be where his hand is and not the purple thing which means I missed grabbing thing because I thought I was in range.

Being hit before and out of teleport during the purple warp phase is also ridiculous. When Mewtwo's body becomes intangible he shouldn't be able to be hit.

GRUMP GRUMP

However we all have to work around these shortcomings and see what works and see what doesn't. Mewtwo can kill early but he can die at much less. Meaning he can't make use of Rage too much. Which means his kill options are limited and mainly requires a read to actually land one in the first place. Mewtwo does have some good attacks but landing them against a seasoned opponent can be quite the challenge.

Best playstyle is probably passive aggressive. Capitalize on any mistakes an opponent makes and get a hit or two in and then back off.

We can't afford to play like Bowser or Charizard and have high damage so any move can kill an opponent.

 

[420quickscoper]

Quality over quantity. F/D-Smash aren't exactly reliable, and you'll land maybe one down-B at most in an entire set against a good player. Ike has tons of kill options too... but none of them are particularly good honestly because they're all so slow.

Mewtwo does have some great options. Throw is his most obvious one. However, his most powerful attack, Up-Smash, is disgustingly strong and is actually a lot more practical to land with short hop feint versus falling/aerial enemy -> bait enemy airdodge -> Up-Smash the airdodge lag, or the U-Tilt to U-Smash (not 100% sure if it's just bad DI or something, but I think jab -> U-Smash works on some characters too).

I honestly believe Mewtwo could be Rosalina-tier if they just made his jab as stupidly good as someone like Falcon and his nair as stupidly as good as Mario's dair or something. I'm thinking even faster jab with slightly longer range and nair that always autocancels but also has that "oomph" at the end like Mario's dair or Mewtwo's melee nair. Making nair that "brainless" safe overall option would make him so much more powerful in the neutral. I would ask for a grab range increase but what I've already written is probably pushing it already lol. It's like they want him to be the Akuma of this game, but other characters still have better offense and pressure than him via stupidly good/1-frame animations and frame data and whatnot.

He's "evasive" with the sneaky airdodge, side-B aerial momentum shift, and Teleport... but Teleport's landing lag is atrocious. But that may just be us being too used to Melee Mewtwo, seems you should have your feed planted on the ground by the end of the teleport rather than floating above since it doesn't cancel out like in Melee but instead INCREASES the landing lag. Time to test that out more. Oh, and still learning how to ledge cancel teleports... stuff is really hard! Just learned today that holding down after Teleport doesn't send you straight down... you go slightly forward, woops so many SDs.

Oh well. I think Mewtwo has a particular weakness against Meta Knight and Pikachu, not too sure about Kirby yet. However, I think Mewtwo is the absolute best character against Jigglypuff, I swear that MU is like 70:30 lol. His strong points (range, raw power, aerial maneuverability/recovery) REALLY shine in that match up and, because he's ungimpable and Puff isn't exactly a combo character against other floaties, Mewtwo is rather durable in this matchup. Yeah you get rested if you whiff the U-Smash, but that beast KO's at like 80% without rage lol. Your fair is nearly as safe as Sheik's fair but with much more reward in that matchup. Do blind fairs when you expect the Puff to short hop, you'll beat him... If not, just move backwards in the air to space yourself and hopefully you can shield by the time you land.

Falcon is tough for Mewtwo, but I actually don't think he's even in Mewtwo's bottom 3 MUs. I think MK, Pika, and Fox take that crown. Actually, Mewtwo truly does dish out the pain once he gains initiative, especially on the edge. Falcon's jab does beat literally everything though lol.

I repeat myself, Puff is almost certainly his easiest MU. After that, I'm not too sure because I haven't grinded him enough to eventually meet good players for each character.

M2's Up-Smash is terrifying, indeed, especially since it can sometimes combo into Utilt. Y'know, the Akuma thing was what I was thinking before - He can dish out the pain but he can't take it.

 

[meleebrawler]

His wonky jump physics on that 2nd jump and a couple hitboxes not matching the animation are all that irritate me. As well as his grab having to be where his hand is and not the purple thing which means I missed grabbing thing because I thought I was in range.

Being hit before and out of teleport during the purple warp phase is also ridiculous. When Mewtwo's body becomes intangible he shouldn't be able to be hit.

GRUMP GRUMP

However we all have to work around these shortcomings and see what works and see what doesn't. Mewtwo can kill early but he can die at much less. Meaning he can't make use of Rage too much. Which means his kill options are limited and mainly requires a read to actually land one in the first place. Mewtwo does have some good attacks but landing them against a seasoned opponent can be quite the challenge.

Best playstyle is probably passive aggressive. Capitalize on any mistakes an opponent makes and get a hit or two in and then back off.

We can't afford to play like Bowser or Charizard and have high damage so any move can kill an opponent.

Mewtwo's second jump is hardly unique, if you dislike his you probably also dislike Ness's (and Lucas) and maybe even
Yoshi if it weren't for the armour and Yoshi handling in the air like a dream in general. Maybe disable could have another
use as an aerial brake?

And continuing the Akuma comparisons, his fireball game is pretty good too.

 

[Tito Maas]

Mewtwo is just not strong enough to justify that light a weight class.

 

[Psyruby]

Mewtwo is just not strong enough to justify that light a weight class.

I'd rather say his attacks aren't fast enough. His power is great and not stupidly OP(ie ZSS's Up B), however his attack speed is quite slow in some areas that matter. Mainly Smash attacks(not Usmash), Ftilt, specials, and aerials. His Utilt and Dtilt are fine speed wise, however the inconsistent hitboxes are small issues. If Mewtwo's attacks were cleaned up, I"m sure his performance overall would be much better even with the same weight and power.

 

[Kyzael]

I'd rather say his attacks aren't fast enough. His power is great and not stupidly OP(ie ZSS's Up B), however his attack speed is quite slow in some areas that matter. Mainly Smash attacks(not Usmash), Ftilt, specials, and aerials. His Utilt and Dtilt are fine speed wise, however the inconsistent hitboxes are small issues. If Mewtwo's attacks were cleaned up, I"m sure his performance overall would be much better even with the same weight and power.

Not to be any off topic but they could do as they do with Dota 2 characters when they are released. After time, they fix all the things "wrong" with them. Whether they are too OP or too UP. That's how it'd be normally anyway

From how I'm seeing things, the character that gets played the most will get nerfed the most on each update.
Which in the case of Mewtwo's release, Diddy Kong.

 

[godogod]

Mewtwo's dash speed is speedier than most^^

 

[meleebrawler]

Mewtwo is just not strong enough to justify that light a weight class.

Jigglypuff and G&W aren't that strong either (rests, judge 9s and oil panics aside), but they do have mobility
(and mad disjoints in G&W's case). Mewtwo trades that (but not too much) for all-round power.

I'd rather say his attacks aren't fast enough. His power is great and not stupidly OP(ie ZSS's Up B), however his attack speed is quite slow in some areas that matter. Mainly Smash attacks(not Usmash), Ftilt, specials, and aerials. His Utilt and Dtilt are fine speed wise, however the inconsistent hitboxes are small issues. If Mewtwo's attacks were cleaned up, I"m sure his performance overall would be much better even with the same weight and power.

Ftilt is slower to be sure, but it's still relatively safe if spaced well and has more power to boot.
There's nothing inconsistent about dtilt other than the knockback changing depending on where it hits and DI.

 

[Tito Maas]

I'd rather say his attacks aren't fast enough. His power is great and not stupidly OP(ie ZSS's Up B), however his attack speed is quite slow in some areas that matter. Mainly Smash attacks(not Usmash), Ftilt, specials, and aerials. His Utilt and Dtilt are fine speed wise, however the inconsistent hitboxes are small issues. If Mewtwo's attacks were cleaned up, I"m sure his performance overall would be much better even with the same weight and power.

I should have been more clear, but when I said "strongest", I meant in terms of offensive capability.

Jigglypuff and G&W aren't that strong either (rests, judge 9s and oil panics aside), but they do have mobility
(and mad disjoints in G&W's case). Mewtwo trades that (but not too much) for all-round power.

Which sucks because that mobility in the air is a defensive option for Jiggs and G&W. Mewtwo doesn't have those defensive options--he's actually easier to kill than Jigglypuff because of his size and his lack of mobility.

This is the thing--I'm tired of hearing this "glass cannon" BS. Him hitting hard does not justify him being the second lightest character in the game. First of all, he's not the strongest or second strongest character in the game. And the people who are aren't the first and third lightest characters in the game. Besides being tossed around at 60% like nothing, he already has weird hitboxes, a slow dash attack, bad grab range, unsafe kill options, a down smash that goes in only one direction, etc.

I mean, if you want to talk about pure strength, only one of his smash attacks kills at 90 or whatever.

There is no way you can justify him being that light when you have dudes like Captain Falcon out here, a dude who's above average in weight who has the third fastest food speed in the game, a grab range that so far outclasses even the next highest grab range that it should be in a "SSS" tier all by itself, 8 reliable kill moves (FSmash, DSmash, USmash, DownB, OverB, DAir, FAir, DTilt), two with supreme range, moves that combo into themselves very easily, etc.

And Captain Falcon isn't the lightest character in the game, but if weight classes are based on offensive potential, he'd be K.O'd at 50. But instead, Mewtwo, a guy who needed a weight buff in Melee instead of a nerf like he got in SSB4, is gonna set the standard for this new "weight is determined by how hard your character hits" BS, they're setting a bad precedent.

Mewtwo can hardly even compete with the other villains in the game--whom also happen to share his size--because of his weight. It's absolutely insane. It's horrible judgement of balancing imo.

Like they really are giving him the Little Mac treatment. You know how he is the absolute best in the game on the ground, but at the expense of absurdly bad recovery and aerial ability? Well Mewtwo isn't even the strongest or most offensively capable character in the game, but he gets absurdly bad weight anyway.

Sakurai really must've thought Mewtwo was going to shoot straight to S-tier in their testing if they really thought the way to make him "fair" and "balanced" is to make him so extremely vulnerable. And that was a mistake on their part.

 

[Tito Maas]

They really made him lighter than he was in Melee. That's absolutely insane. Especially when you look at how they balance other characters throughout the Smash series, specifically the original 12.

At the bare minimum he should be where he was in Melee in terms of weight, but he really needs to be as heavy as Ness or Mario. Or Captain Falcon.

 

[Psyruby]

Jigglypuff and G&W aren't that strong either (rests, judge 9s and oil panics aside), but they do have mobility
(and mad disjoints in G&W's case). Mewtwo trades that (but not too much) for all-round power.



Ftilt is slower to be sure, but it's still relatively safe if spaced well and has more power to boot.
There's nothing inconsistent about dtilt other than the knockback changing depending on where it hits and DI.

That's what I'm talking about for Dtilt and Utilt. The fact that Dtilt's longest hitbox can't be followed up and Utilt has like 20 different trajectories and the animation not matching the hitbox causes more headaches than necessary. I can live with Dtilt overall as it is an excellent follow up attack, but Utilt really needs to be cleaned up.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Pikachu can run as fast as Mewtwo despite being heavier despite logic saying that shouldn't be possible. Can probably attack much faster too.

 

[Psyruby]

I should have been more clear, but when I said "strongest", I meant in terms of offensive capability.


Which sucks because that mobility in the air is a defensive option for Jiggs and G&W. Mewtwo doesn't have those defensive options--he's actually easier to kill than Jigglypuff because of his size and his lack of mobility.

This is the thing--I'm tired of hearing this "glass cannon" BS. Him hitting hard does not justify him being the second lightest character in the game. First of all, he's not the strongest or second strongest character in the game. And the people who are aren't the first and third lightest characters in the game. Besides being tossed around at 60% like nothing, he already has weird hitboxes, a slow dash attack, bad grab range, unsafe kill options, a down smash that goes in only one direction, etc.

I mean, if you want to talk about pure strength, only one of his smash attacks kills at 90 or whatever.

There is no way you can justify him being that light when you have dudes like Captain Falcon out here, a dude who's above average in weight who has the third fastest food speed in the game, a grab range that so far outclasses even the next highest grab range that it should be in a "SSS" tier all by itself, 8 reliable kill moves (FSmash, DSmash, USmash, DownB, OverB, DAir, FAir, DTilt), two with supreme range, moves that combo into themselves very easily, etc.

And Captain Falcon isn't the lightest character in the game, but if weight classes are based on offensive potential, he'd be K.O'd at 50. But instead, Mewtwo, a guy who needed a weight buff in Melee instead of a nerf like he got in SSB4, is gonna set the standard for this new "weight is determined by how hard your character hits" BS, they're setting a bad precedent.

1) Mewtwo doesn't lack mobility, he lacks jump acceleration(ie his second jump is slow). His aerial and ground mobility is quite high actually.

2) His dash attack is the same attack speed as Captain Falcon's, has the same combo ability, same damage, and is disjointed(and anything with Mewtwo's Dark Energy has high priority).

3) Mewtwo's kill options aren't unsafe, they are slow. There is a significant difference. Dsmash is safe on dodge, Fsmash is safe on shield, Shadow Ball is very safe kill move, and grabs... you can't really say it is any less unsafe than others.

4) Mewtwo's grab range is fine. While not huge horizontally, he isn't Robin or WFT. And Mewtwo's grab is very good at grabbing people vertically above him, but not below. He also has an amazing jab grab, probably the best jab grab in the game.

5) Captain Falcon's Smash attacks aren't reliable kill moves. They are slow, in fact, the only reason why Fsmash is seen as good is cause it has large range. Side B is also really slow, that requires a hard read. Fair requires hard reads and great spacing. Dtilt is nice, but it really doesn't kill that early. This is the difference between what a glass cannon and captain falcon should be. A Glass Cannon should have semi powerful FAST kill moves with somewhat low punish(A la ZSS).

ZSS is a perfect example of how a glass cannon should function, in fact, she is the only functional glass cannon in Smash 4.

 

[warionumbah2]

Didn't expect MK to get mentioned on this page, MK seems to bop Mewtwo really hard but people forget he's on the roster.

 

[meleebrawler]

1) Mewtwo doesn't lack mobility, he lacks jump acceleration(ie his second jump is slow). His aerial and ground mobility is quite high actually.

2) His dash attack is the same attack speed as Captain Falcon's, has the same combo ability, same damage, and is disjointed(and anything with Mewtwo's Dark Energy has high priority).

3) Mewtwo's kill options aren't unsafe, they are slow. There is a significant difference. Dsmash is safe on dodge, Fsmash is safe on shield, Shadow Ball is very safe kill move, and grabs... you can't really say it is any less unsafe than others.

4) Mewtwo's grab range is fine. While not huge horizontally, he isn't Robin or WFT. And Mewtwo's grab is very good at grabbing people vertically above him, but not below. He also has an amazing jab grab, probably the best jab grab in the game.

5) Captain Falcon's Smash attacks aren't reliable kill moves. They are slow, in fact, the only reason why Fsmash is seen as good is cause it has large range. Side B is also really slow, that requires a hard read. Fair requires hard reads and great spacing. Dtilt is nice, but it really doesn't kill that early. This is the difference between what a glass cannon and captain falcon should be. A Glass Cannon should have semi powerful FAST kill moves with somewhat low punish(A la ZSS).

ZSS is a perfect example of how a glass cannon should function, in fact, she is the only functional glass cannon in Smash 4.

Hard to see ZSS as a glass cannon when she can just flip jump out of a jam... she also doesn't do that
great at just getting into the opponent's face and pressuring, more like she jumps around being evasive and annoying
until she gets an opening. Boost kick is strong, but very risky, and her safest kill move is bair. Her other kill moves are risky too, even her grab is. She's a fragile speedster if anything. Falcon is closer to a cannon since his uair is fast and relatively good at killing and a lot of his moves have good specs, but his weight and fall speed make him combo fodder and his recovery is quite poor.

Shadow claw fits the description of a fast and not too punishable kill move pretty well, disable too if you know how to use it.
Oh, and his jab grab is only really rivaled by Palutena.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Bowser can jab into anything he wants with ease. Including a grab. Because +7 frame advantage.

 

[Psyruby]

Hard to see ZSS as a glass cannon when she can just flip jump out of a jam... she also doesn't do that
great at just getting into the opponent's face and pressuring, more like she jumps around being evasive and annoying
until she gets an opening. Boost kick is strong, but very risky, and her safest kill move is bair. Her other kill moves are risky too, even her grab is. She's a fragile speedster if anything. Falcon is closer to a cannon since his uair is fast and relatively good at killing and a lot of his moves have good specs, but his weight and fall speed make him combo fodder and his recovery is quite poor.

Shadow claw fits the description of a fast and not too punishable kill move pretty well, disable too if you know how to use it.
Oh, and his jab grab is only really rivaled by Palutena.

ZSS is a glass cannon and fragile speedster. It's impossible to ignore the fact that her Up B is the best finisher overall in the game. It is fast, extremely powerful, easy to combo into, and isn't that risky when you have the advantage. Honestly, glass cannons need to be fast in Smash. If you look at Zelda and G&W, they have never been "good" in any smash game cause they lack too much mobility and attack speed. Also, Mewtwo is posed as a fragile speedster/glass cannon anyway. He is fast, he is strong, and he is vulnerable.

 

[Chiroz]

Didn't expect MK to get mentioned on this page, MK seems to bop Mewtwo really hard but people forget he's on the roster.

Who's MK, is that a Brawl cut?

 

[meleebrawler]

ZSS is a glass cannon and fragile speedster. It's impossible to ignore the fact that her Up B is the best finisher overall in the game. It is fast, extremely powerful, easy to combo into, and isn't that risky when you have the advantage. Honestly, glass cannons need to be fast in Smash. If you look at Zelda and G&W, they have never been "good" in any smash game cause they lack too much mobility and attack speed. Also, Mewtwo is posed as a fragile speedster/glass cannon anyway. He is fast, he is strong, and he is vulnerable.

I just don't see ZSS as very fragile when she can easily flip jump out of disadvantage and has good recovery.
Sure, she's light, but not incredibly so. Boost Kick setups are relatively easily avoided with proper DI, and if she
can't land it, how else is she really going to get a kill? Mewtwo can threaten with kills from just about anywhere, but
against ZSS as long as you're not above her you're golden if you play safe, and even above her she only
gets one shot to land that big hit, which might not even land properly on a hit. Sure, in that scenario a floaty
might not get a punish, but he's still relieved of pressure.

tl,dr: Boost Kick may be a great finisher, but you're not really going to land it unless you're punishing
something, whether it's OOS, an airdodge or bad DI. And without that move, you see just how hard it
really is for ZSS to seal a stock.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Haven't played a good Meta Knight with Mewtwo, but it honestly can't be that bad when Mewtwo outranges, like...
everything MK has. Yeah, he can combo you badly if you mess up and kill Mewtwo fairly easily with Shuttle Loop,
but his main game is just basically trying to dance just outside your effective range and punish mistakes with dash
attack/grab, which would normally be very frustrating, but luckily Mewtwo has a projectile so he doesn't need to commit too
much. And if coming back against Jigglypuff is easy, Meta Knight is a cakewalk. Just watch for that fsmash at the edge.

The thing is that Meta Knight is basically like the Captain Falcon matchup except he's shorter and doesn't have an ass for a recovery. Unlike Puff, Meta Knight is really fast on the ground, which is what really gives him good "range" much like how Fox in Melee can be considered to have good "range" because he can instantly position himself to a point where he can land an attack. Zoning and spacing isn't just about how long the sword is... it's also about the footwork in it. That's why even if Melee Link's sword is longer than Fox's fists and legs, Fox still effectively controls more space and "range" than Link because Fox can decide to start an attack from a longer distance due to his speed. Apply the same concept to Meta Knight. Puff's modus operandi is also aerials, where she places herself ever so conveniently to your fair (outranges and beats her stuff) or tail attacks (disjointed and beats a lot of her stuff either through speed, range, or priority: bair, uair, ftilt, dtilt). She's not exactly fast, so Mewtwo can be very calculated with how he approaches or defends against Puff. MK doesn't give such luxuries when he's Captain Falcon dash attack/dash grabbing your face constantly.

Like Falcon, MK combos Mewtwo to hell and back and I wouldn't even be surprised if his 0-death footstool worked on M2 (dash attack -> jump and footstool Mewtwo -> fast fall land -> 3 d-tilts jablock -> dash attack during forced getup -> up-air x 5 with proper fast falling control and aerial chase -> shuttle loop). On the other hand, Meta Knight is slightly harder to ez-combo himself because of his smaller stature and his recovery is very difficult to play against unlike Falcon. His tiny frame makes aerials in the neutral that much harder to land, and we know how Mewtwo's grabs can be against shorter characters...

Didn't expect MK to get mentioned on this page, MK seems to bop Mewtwo really hard but people forget he's on the roster.

d00d I am from the MK boards lol, I want to main switch to Mewtwo but I still bring up the MK when I'm down to my
last game and feel the set is salvageable in Smashladder (if I honestly think the opponent is better than me, I just stick to my guns with Mewtwo and try to learn from the inevitable loss rather than switch to MK for a better chance to win while missing out on valuable MU knowledge for M2).

 

[warionumbah2]

"Mewtwo out ranges MK so it cant be bad"

Have you actually played a MK? I guess over half the cast stomps him cuz muh range.

Edit: He outright said "I haven't played a good MK" so everything you written up is a load of baloney.

@ meleebrawler

 

[Psyruby]

I just don't see ZSS as very fragile when she can easily flip jump out of disadvantage and has good recovery.
Sure, she's light, but not incredibly so. Boost Kick setups are relatively easily avoided with proper DI, and if she
can't land it, how else is she really going to get a kill? Mewtwo can threaten with kills from just about anywhere, but
against ZSS as long as you're not above her you're golden if you play safe, and even above her she only
gets one shot to land that big hit, which might not even land properly on a hit. Sure, in that scenario a floaty
might not get a punish, but he's still relieved of pressure.

tl,dr: Boost Kick may be a great finisher, but you're not really going to land it unless you're punishing
something, whether it's OOS, an airdodge or bad DI. And without that move, you see just how hard it
really is for ZSS to seal a stock.

ZSS is the 8th lightest character, even lighter than Sheik. That's really god damn light. She's only a tiny bit heavier than Pikachu, Fox, and Olimar who are the 6th lightest characters in the game. Also, Boost Kick isn't just bad DI. You can get Boost Kick out of Up Air and Down Throw even with good DI. Up Air is guaranteed when spaced, Down Throw is a frame trap(even with Good DI), cause if you jump, she can just do it immediately, and if you air dodge, she can wait. It's very easy to get Boost Kick due to ZSS's aerial mobility and jump height.

EDIT: Jesus, I forgot something important. You can actually true combo Boost Kick from Paralyzer and Flip Kick. Flip Kick requires the grounded hit and they have to be over 80%. The Paralyzer just works when semi charged.

EDIT: EDIT: I also forgot Down Smash, tho this is the least easy way to get Boost Kick due to Down Smash requiring 20 frames of start up, but it still is a valid way to get Boost Kick. And this is sort of the point, ZSS has so many ways to reliably set up Boost Kick that it isn't even funny. Despite only having one extremely powerful move, her entire moveset is based around finishing with it.

 

[Diddy Kong]

ZSS is a glass cannon and fragile speedster. It's impossible to ignore the fact that her Up B is the best finisher overall in the game. It is fast, extremely powerful, easy to combo into, and isn't that risky when you have the advantage. Honestly, glass cannons need to be fast in Smash. If you look at Zelda and G&W, they have never been "good" in any smash game cause they lack too much mobility and attack speed. Also, Mewtwo is posed as a fragile speedster/glass cannon anyway. He is fast, he is strong, and he is vulnerable.

Mr.Game and Watch was good in Brawl, and he was stronger than Mewtwo is now. Those Smashes really could kill early, and he actually had working hitboxes and the like. Zelda in Melee was also better than Mewtwo in Melee, so my conclusion: both characters are still more workable than Mewtwo.

Sakurai's idea: 'Let's add the most powerful Pokémon into Smash! I need to make him -> "unique" <- though. Hmm what shall I do? Ranged grabs? Awesome telekinesis command grabs? Nah... Oh here I have it! Floatiness plus extreme awkward statistical weaknesses! Yeah that will do! [laughs]'

 

[meleebrawler]

Mr.Game and Watch was good in Brawl, and he was stronger than Mewtwo is now. Those Smashes really could kill early, and he actually had working hitboxes and the like. Zelda in Melee was also better than Mewtwo in Melee, so my conclusion: both characters are still more workable than Mewtwo.

Sakurai's idea: 'Let's add the most powerful Pokémon into Smash! I need to make him -> "unique" <- though. Hmm what shall I do? Ranged grabs? Awesome telekinesis command grabs? Nah... Oh here I have it! Floatiness plus extreme awkward statistical weaknesses! Yeah that will do! [laughs]'

Brawl G&W's kill power compared to 4 is honestly not that different (mainly fair and dsmash sourspot), it's just that
his smashes were a lot more abusable, plus bucket braking helped mask his light weight.

Zelda is better than Mewtwo in Melee... by a measly two spots, and even then only because kicks were kind of
beastly. Nowadays, you're gonna to try really hard to convince me that a character with next to no safe aerials,
unreliable projectiles and poor mobility outclasses Mewtwo.

Mewtwo does have telekinetic command grabs, but nooooo. Confusion just isn't awesome unless it kills or
gets guaranteed followups, doesn't it? Enjoy the scrubs who constantly spam it and subsequently complain when
it's used against them, resulting in a swift nerf. He has strong killing throws normally anyway, and if he had a ranged grab it would be punishable.

 

[Psyruby]

[

Brawl G&W's kill power compared to 4 is honestly not that different (mainly fair and dsmash sourspot), it's just that
his smashes were a lot more abusable, plus bucket braking helped mask his light weight.

Zelda is better than Mewtwo in Melee... by a measly two spots, and even then only because kicks were kind of
beastly. Nowadays, you're gonna to try really hard to convince me that a character with next to no safe aerials,
unreliable projectiles and poor mobility outclasses Mewtwo.

Mewtwo does have telekinetic command grabs, but nooooo. Confusion just isn't awesome unless it kills or
gets guaranteed followups, doesn't it? Enjoy the scrubs who constantly spam it and subsequently complain when
it's used against them, resulting in a swift nerf. He has strong killing throws normally anyway, and if he had a ranged grab it would be punishable.

Pretty much, G&W's issue is more of him staying the same except without bucket braking while everyone else got powered up. Zelda.... omg.... why... all she has is the elevator and that is irrelevant on disjointed characters. Also, Mewtwo's confusion is great in power level. Being a 3rd jump, momentum changer, reflector, and command grab is awesome.

 

[sparkaura]

"Mewtwo out ranges MK so it cant be bad"

Have you actually played a MK? I guess over half the cast stomps him cuz muh range.

Edit: He outright said "I haven't played a good MK" so everything you written up is a load of baloney.

@ meleebrawler

I could try to get a set in VS Katakiri in the future and get his opinion.

 

[godogod]

if Mewtwo's weight was increased back to melee weight, how much better would he be?

also how do you guys get a free down smash hit after confusion. Ot doesn't last long enough for that to happen for me at least.

 

[Psyruby]

if Mewtwo's weight was increased back to melee weight, how much better would he be?

also how do you guys get a free down smash hit after confusion. Ot doesn't last long enough for that to happen for me at least.

he'd be like... marginally better. His frame data and wonky hitboxes are more of an issue. Also, you can't get a free down smash, the opponent has to mess up. I'll list what you should do for Confusion based on the opponent's taste.

Confusion options:
Opponent Attacks: You Shield Punish
Opponent Techs: tech chase grab
Opponent forgets to Tech or is too slow when teching: Forward Smash/Down Smash(Fsmash is preferable as sometimes you can hit attacking opponent's due to Mewtwo's hurtbox retracting)
Opponent jumps: well... you sort are out of luck, chase at your own risk, but I'd rather attempt to punish the landing.

EDIT: I suggest Fsmash or Shielding for your first confusion on the opponent as Fsmash is hard to punish, and you can't punish shield.

 

[pikazz]

the weight isnt an issue, its more of his lag of the moves that is the problem!

I recommend on a fail tech to either Ftilt or a small shadow ball to get a jab lock. that way you can get a free punishment with whatever you want! usually a Disable -> Charged Smash works great :3

 

[carlos11]

Weight is definitely the main issue. If there's one thing we should ask for, as Mewtwo players, it should be a weight buff.

 

[meleebrawler]

If you can't think of anything to complain about Mewtwo other than his weight, isn't that basically admitting he's a very solid
character otherwise?

Whenever people deliberate on a character's position, stamina is almost never a defining attribute of their position.
It's a factor, sure, but it can easily be rendered relatively moot if the character's options are good enough.

Making Mewtwo heavier might let him benefit from rage a bit more, but it wouldn't change the fact that he's still tall
and floaty making him a relatively easy target (though it's important to note that his frame is far less awkward than Melee).
The added weight might even make him more susceptible to combos that he would have escaped from before.
If you've been losing with Mewtwo before, simply adding weight isn't necessarily going to make games easier;
everything the opponent was able to exploit as you playing Mewtwo is still very much in place.

What seems to hold Mewtwo back is lacking truly dominating options in his moveset, which is the price he
pays for being relatively good AND powerful in most situations other than disadvantage (and even that can be mitigated
with smart play, though it's still difficult against fast characters). As it is, almost every move in his moveset has a flaw
that can be exploited, so you have to play very intelligently in order to not let the opponent punish reckless uses.

As for people jumping out of Confusion, you could always use the time to charge, or even throw balls to make their
landing more uncomfortable.

 

[carlos11]

That's because Mewtwo is a solid character. His weight is my only complaint because I don't feel there's anything else as significant to complain about. You don't think living for an extra 30-40 percent every stock would make difference? Mewtwo's #2 biggest problem is the endlag/startup on his moves, but fixing that wouldn't benefit him as much as making him heavier, which is why his weight is the biggest complaint.

 

[Psyruby]

That's because Mewtwo is a solid character. His weight is my only complaint because I don't feel there's anything else as significant to complain about. You don't think living for an extra 30-40 percent every stock would make difference? Mewtwo's #2 biggest problem is the endlag/startup on his moves, but fixing that wouldn't benefit him as much as making him heavier, which is why his weight is the biggest complaint.

I think really the issue here is rather how do we want to balance Mewtwo. Currently with his moveset, being a middleweight would probably stabilize him to the point he is B(or higher) tier, however we could also speed up his moves, clean his hitboxes, and improve his GOD AWFUL ROLLS to make him a true Fragile Speedster/Glass Cannon that would be B(or higher) tier. Personally, I'd like the latter as I want a good glass cannon in the game(not named ZSS).

 

[meleebrawler]

I think really the issue here is rather how do we want to balance Mewtwo. Currently with his moveset, being a middleweight would probably stabilize him to the point he is B(or higher) tier, however we could also speed up his moves, clean his hitboxes, and improve his GOD AWFUL ROLLS to make him a true Fragile Speedster/Glass Cannon that would be B(or higher) tier. Personally, I'd like the latter as I want a good glass cannon in the game(not named ZSS).

I don't find Mewtwo's rolls are that bad, yeah they recover slower than the average roll making them easier to punish
if used carelessly, but the distance they travel can make up for it, especially in rolling wars. Besides, they're not Samus
slow. Rolling is generally overrated due to the lag of For Glory, even normal rolls can be easily punished when overused.

Given the "fun for everyone" nature of the game, I don't think a true glass cannon, the kind that can faceroll anyone
on offence if played properly, will ever really appear in Smash 4. Sakurai made it very clear he didn't like the way Melee, the game where such cannons really did exist, turned out, and transitions from Brawl show that you don't have to be a top tier to have abusable traits taken away, even if they only worked at a low level. Stuff like Zelda's Din's Fire, usmash and lightning kicks, Falco's dair and blasters and chaingrabs in general. If Mewtwo was almost as safe as Sheik when attacking, yet had far greater
kill power and/or damage per hit, he'd be really controversial no matter how frail he may be. People already made a fuss about
Diddy when he got kills earlier than what was considered reasonable.

For me, Mewtwo is fine the way he is, and while he could obviously be better, I don't really want to become
so to the point where he is centralized in the meta and thus becomes controversial. He has answers for almost any situation and is quite rewarding when all of his options are used correctly and I like that.

One last note: dsmash easily hits those standing right on top of Mewtwo so I often end up punishing roll-spammers
with it anyway.

 

[Psyruby]

I don't find Mewtwo's rolls are that bad, yeah they recover slower than the average roll making them easier to punish
if used carelessly, but the distance they travel can make up for it, especially in rolling wars. Besides, they're not Samus
slow. Rolling is generally overrated due to the lag of For Glory, even normal rolls can be easily punished when overused.

Given the "fun for everyone" nature of the game, I don't think a true glass cannon, the kind that can faceroll anyone
on offence if played properly, will ever really appear in Smash 4. Sakurai made it very clear he didn't like the way Melee, the game where such cannons really did exist, turned out, and transitions from Brawl show that you don't have to be a top tier to have abusable traits taken away, even if they only worked at a low level. Stuff like Zelda's Din's Fire, usmash and lightning kicks, Falco's dair and blasters and chaingrabs in general. If Mewtwo was almost as safe as Sheik when attacking, yet had far greater
kill power and/or damage per hit, he'd be really controversial no matter how frail he may be. People already made a fuss about
Diddy when he got kills earlier than what was considered reasonable.

For me, Mewtwo is fine the way he is, and while he could obviously be better, I don't really want to become
so to the point where he is centralized in the meta and thus becomes controversial. He has answers for almost any situation and is quite rewarding when all of his options are used correctly and I like that.

One last note: dsmash easily hits those standing right on top of Mewtwo so I often end up punishing roll-spammers
with it anyway.

I do agree the distance is nice on the rolls, but I really don't think 14 frames of invulnerability out of 29 is that good. You don't even have to try when hitting Mewtwo out of roll. That being said, it is true that rolling isn't really that necessary in this game. Finally, I don't want him to be Sheik, ZSS, or Mac in speed. I stated many times I don't want Mewtwo to turn into ZSS. I just want his moves to be sped up SLIGHTLY(1 or 2 frames at most on the slower moves) and the tail hitboxes to be more uniform and clean. I honestly like how safe Mewtwo is on attack right now. Most his moves are safe, they are just slow to come out.

EDIT: And as a Ganondorf player, I know very well how to use safe but slow moves.

 

[godogod]

@ meleebrawler :

Is your reply directed towards me? No, this is not the only complaint. I've listed my issues with Mewtwo several times.

Besides the weight, I currently think some of his biggest issues are his up+ back aerials, and his up tilt hitboxes whiffing. Incredibly small and/or badly disjointed hit boxes. His forward air to an extent I have an issue also, as it to seems to be major problem with connecting if you're too close. but those other three need to be fixed especially.

This and some frame lenghs, but the frames are more tolerable.