Mewtwo changes Patch 1.1.5

[Top Boss]

how much bigger are the nair hitboxes now? i know the numbers but how significant is the change?

 

[Aninymouse]

how much bigger are the nair hitboxes now? i know the numbers but how significant is the change?

Hitboxes in Smash are like circles. Think of a hitbox unit of 1 as a unit of diameter for that circle.

When a hitbox is increased or decreased by 1, it increases/decreases by a very noticeable amount. Less than 1 is not as noticeable.

What this basically did was it eliminated some of the "dead zones" in Nair so that Mewtwo's hurtbox is not as vulnerable during the attack, but it has not increased the range of the move very much.

Edit: for reference, here is Sheik's Fair reduction. Notice how the "bubble" at the tip is now smaller:

For those curious of the Sheik fair change:

Spoiler: Before

Spoiler: After

Sheik's Fair has its hitbox reduced by exactly 1 unit of diameter.

 

[Chiroz]

Hitboxes in Smash are like circles. Think of a hitbox unit of 1 as a unit of diameter for that circle.

When a hitbox is increased or decreased by 1, it increases/decreases by a very noticeable amount. Less than 1 is not as noticeable.

What this basically did was it eliminated some of the "dead zones" in Nair so that Mewtwo's hurtbox is not as vulnerable during the attack, but it has not increased the range of the move very much.

Edit: for reference, here is Sheik's Fair reduction. Notice how the "bubble" at the tip is now smaller:

Sheik's Fair has its hitbox reduced by exactly 1 unit of diameter.

Sheik's hurtbox was moved backwards, it the same diameter.


Guys try not to post the same thing twice.


N-Air basically stick out 0.35 more outside of Mewtwo which is almost nothing, but the good thing is it covers some of the deadzones inside Mewtwo and also makes it harder for the opponen to be hit extremely close to the center, 2 of the reasons people would randomly drop out.

Basically this range makes the move more consistent.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I was following links in the 1.1.5 thread, and I saw this reaction to Mewtwo's new running speed by 2GG| BAM The Loyal:

Mewtwo is as fast as Sheik and is now faster than Meta Knight. Source: https://twitter.com/SilentDo0m

His tail is wagging faster then my dogs at dinner time.

 

[Chiroz]

Also Mewtwo runs faster than Sheik, lol

 

[Aninymouse]

If I've gotten any 1.1.5 details wrong, I apologize. Things are still pretty loose and free right now with data flying around everywhere.

 

[C3CC]

Neutral aerial's multi-hits hitboxes are larger: 2.3u → 3u.

IS THIS CONFIRMED? If so...

YEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSS

 

[J2_]

I've heard that NAir comes out a tad earlier, like it's synced up with the lightning. Is this true as well or is it just the hitbox being bigger?

 

[gameplayzero]

This is so arbitrary. Who cares if it barely makes sense? It's Smash. Rosalina's a heavyweight in Mario Kart yet she's only 77 weight here. Olimar is the size of a penny, yet he's heavier than both of them. Logic may sometimes go out the window in favor of character balance and archetypes. It's what makes a fighting game a fighting game.

Also, is there a source on up smash having earlier FAF?

Edit: Saw the post. Awesome.

yeah but what character balance is being done here? Especially when even people in this thread are saying the weight buff is overall "eh" and only accept it because its better than nothing. I don't think Mario and Sonic guy was talking about "logical sense", but rather balance because he is right. M2 shouldn't be lighter than G&W still.

 

[TheRealSkid]

Interesting.....
The up smash changes are awesome. I hated how unreliable it was due to its lag from a whiff or a shield, but it is one of my primary kill moves. If I know it will hit I do admittedly somewhat overuse it. The nair changes are great, but will the larger hit boxes account for opponents that attempt to hit it with another attack?
I'm really happy about these changes even though they weren't a whole lot. (Remember what happened to OP Project M mewtwo, so the way I see it any buff is amazing)
EDIT: I used the word godsend too much. I don't think M2K had anything to do with these patches lol

 

[King*Krool]

This is a massive buff, and might be his last. His weight is now nearly the same as Rosa (Who by the way is a super top tier, nearly taking Zero down many times).

The U-Smash is Far more safe.

His movement speed is crazy now. Being faster than Sheik will allow Mewtwo to follow up anyway now.

His N-Air now won't whiff having a bigger hitbox being way more reliable.

Also most of the top tier characters were nerfed pretty damn hard. While having many low tiers (Zelda, Kirby, exc) get a massive boost to power.

This may be the last patch, but Mewtwo was already able to win tournaments or place top 5. Now he will have no problem doing it. (I know I won't

Don't know about the B-air changes, (Can someone make a video to confirm if it's faster?)

Any more changes to Mewtwo's weight in a patch and his super teliport dodge, (He has the best dodge and air dodge in the game) might be taken away. So hopefully he stays the same with no more changes.

 

[Philos-kun]

Gawd! More Giegue buffs!

So happy with Mewtwo at this point. It's super fast now and Usmash is one of the best in the game. The weight buff is something I guess but with good DI you can survive a little bit more than before. I couldn't care less for Nair because I find it unsafe and I never use it.

 

[godogod]

Just curious.. Anyone notice any changes in air speed or acceleration speed?

I remember mewtwo getting a buff in air speed out of no where(saw it on smash wiki) in patch 1.1.3, but I don't remember seeing anyone mentioning it on this board through testing. I asked, and someone said it could have been due to his increase in dash speed. I don't know how that exactly works or how they could be correlated even.

 

[Chiroz]

Just curious.. Anyone notice any changes in air speed or acceleration speed?

I remember mewtwo getting a buff in air speed out of no where(saw it on smash wiki) in patch 1.1.3, but I don't remember seeing anyone mentioning it on this board through testing. I asked, and someone said it could have been due to his increase in dash speed. I don't know how that exactly works or how they could be correlated even.

He did not receive either, I checked the values on those.

 

[godogod]

I see. Wasn't expecting any.

With yesterday's patch, where do you guys see Mewtwo in the tier list now? It would be hard to argue against the notion of him being mid tier now.

 

[Astro986]

Wow, I didn't expect Mewtwo to get even faster. And with a small weight buff too. I would've preferred an even 75, but I'll take what I can get.

Mewtwo is the exact definition of a "glass cannon". This increased weight doesn't really help much. And I don't know if this is just me, but has Disable received a buff? It's ending lag seems to be less than what it used to be

 

[Astro986]

I see. Wasn't expecting any.

With yesterday's patch, where do you guys see Mewtwo in the tier list now? It would be hard to argue against the notion of him being mid tier now.

To me, it's a mix between High Tier and Mid Tier

 

[Quantumpen]

It's hard to say anything concrete without seeing tournament results -- but I think Mewtwo will settle in high tier. I base this primarily on the following core belief -- which comes mostly from other fighting games I've played at a competitive level.

Once the meta fully develops, mobility and space control will become the essential defining characteristic of strong characters -- absent any enormous flaws holding them back (It is a necessary condition, but not "entirely" sufficient -- though I think it's a strong indicator). This is where 1.1.4/1.1.5 Mewtwo really shines -- all of these speed buffs, (both to his frame data and to his movement) end up having the following major effects:

Mewtwo can chase, punish, retreat better. He's one of the strongest characters in the game at doing this now -- very easy for him close gaps, get big conversions off read rolls, mis-spaced attacks, baits, etc.

Mewtwo can control space better: It's very easy for him to abuse his fast movement speed to get in -- or space opponents out with his d-tilt, shadow balls, and very quick fair/bair/uair (which hard hard/impossible to punish, have great range, and set up for mix-ups/50-50's which can kill) and incredible aerial and grounded mobility. Most of the cast will struggle to keep up with this

Mewtwo has an incredibly good neutral because of this, and he's got enough power to really be an effective punishing char.

His weight is a significant drawback, but I don't think it's enough to keep him out of high tier once the meta settles. It'll probably keep him out of top, he'll have some bad matchups where he gets gimped (though some of those got nerfed this patch, which helps him) -- but he's fundamentally a very strong offensive presence now for all the reasons mentioned above. That kind of character tends to do well. I think his weight now feels fair -- there is a reason it's that low. He didn't have the tools to justify it at launch, but the mobility, pressure, and power of 1.1.4/1.1.5 Mewtwo do balance his weight.

 

[Astro986]

It's hard to say anything concrete without seeing tournament results -- but I think Mewtwo will settle in high tier. I base this primarily on the following core belief -- which comes mostly from other fighting games I've played at a competitive level.

Once the meta fully develops, mobility and space control will become the essential defining characteristic of strong characters -- absent any enormous flaws holding them back (It is a necessary condition, but not "entirely" sufficient -- though I think it's a strong indicator). This is where 1.1.4/1.1.5 Mewtwo really shines -- all of these speed buffs, (both to his frame data and to his movement) end up having the following major effects:

Mewtwo can chase, punish, retreat better. He's one of the strongest characters in the game at doing this now -- very easy for him close gaps, get big conversions off read rolls, mis-spaced attacks, baits, etc.

Mewtwo can control space better: It's very easy for him to abuse his fast movement speed to get in -- or space opponents out with his d-tilt, shadow balls, and very quick fair/bair/uair (which hard hard/impossible to punish, have great range, and set up for mix-ups/50-50's which can kill) and incredible aerial and grounded mobility. Most of the cast will struggle to keep up with this

Mewtwo has an incredibly good neutral because of this, and he's got enough power to really be an effective punishing char.

His weight is a significant drawback, but I don't think it's enough to keep him out of high tier once the meta settles. It'll probably keep him out of top, he'll have some bad matchups where he gets gimped (though some of those got nerfed this patch, which helps him) -- but he's fundamentally a very strong offensive presence now for all the reasons mentioned above. That kind of character tends to do well. I think his weight now feels fair -- there is a reason it's that low. He didn't have the tools to justify it at launch, but the mobility, pressure, and power of 1.1.4/1.1.5 Mewtwo do balance his weight.

I wonder if they will keep releasing patches....

 

[Quantumpen]

If they do I think it's unlikely Mewtwo will be the focus of those patches -- and I don't think he should be. If his weight was 80 and his grab range was longer, he'd be top tier... but he's already good . Most of the cast needs a lot more work than he does at this point. Though I love Mewtwo, for the health of the game I'd prefer if future patches focus on bringing up the characters who need it more, and controlling any absurd things like Hoo-Hah that happen to crop up.

 

[Astro986]

If they do I think it's unlikely Mewtwo will be the focus of those patches -- and I don't think he should be. If his weight was 80 and his grab range was longer, he'd be top tier... but he's already good . Most of the cast needs a lot more work than he does at this point. Though I love Mewtwo, for the health of the game I'd prefer if future patches focus on bringing up the characters who need it more, and controlling any absurd things like Hoo-Hah that happen to crop up.

Patch 1.1.3 was a gift from god. Hoo-Hah was one of the most aggravating thing in the world. But yeah, Mewtwo is an amazing character as of now

 

[godogod]

I don't think he would be top tier even with a weight of 85 and getting the same grab range from melee back. High tier alone is debatable.. If he had down throw comboing again, in addition to what I mentioned above., I'd say high tier for sure. Oh and Not to mention getting that B.S. teleport SD from ledges fix which occasionally cost matches..

Anyway, he doesn't fare well with much of the top characters. Especially the rush down types. The main advantage Mewtwo players have had in the past(like when blue and mew^2 fought nairo and m2king), was that Mewtwo players weren't all that common in tournaments to begin with(even more rare, fighters using him as a primary). And considering that tournaments usually have the most commonly used top tier characters, people didn't have experience fighting good Mewtwo players..
Nairo came back with his ZSS. in the semi finals in January. He's a fast learner.

Once the dust settles and people see how good Mewtwo is with an increased usage in the tourney scene, they will also know how matchups against him will work, so it could even out a little.

 

[Quantumpen]

I've heard that argument before, but I really don't think Mewtwo's rise is all (or even mostly) attributable to novelty or MU/inexperience. I don't believe this. I think most matchups are flat or better for Mewtwo now -- because so many characters have trouble dealing with Mewtwo's neutral (biggest reason) and punish game (other big reason).

I hypothesize that match-ups are better than you think -- including against the top tier characters. Especially Now.

Nairo beat Blue because Nairo's a better player, but with ZSS's staircase weakened I think that's probably close to even. Mewtwo's neutral is (debateably) better -- and they can both wreck the other off a punish. ZSS has better frame data (which is significant), but Mewtwo has stronger space control. Probably still slightly better for ZSS but it's not a bad matchup.

Cloud (I'm not sure I believe he's top tier, but that's a different issue) gets totally screwed off-stage by mewtwo and is much weaker than Mewtwo in neutral. Cloud's kill options against Mewtwo are limited and punishable. I think this is in Mewtwo's favor

Sheik was never that bad of a match-up for Mewtwo post 1.1.4 -- and now with her kill set-ups further weakened -- he'll still get rushed down but she'll struggle to kill and be facing a raged Mewtwo with superior space control who can kill her with any of like... 8 moves. I think this is in Mewtwo's favor post patch.

Rosa and Mewtwo are 50/50, according to Dabuz -- I agree with this from my own experience. Mewtwo can do a good job of terrorizing luma with fast fairs and uncharged shadow balls, and tears her up if he's not zoned out.

ESAM thinks Mewtwo/Pika is slightly in Pika's favor. I don't know this match-up well myself -- but I think that's significant since Pika is really good at getting in and is a beast in advantaged state (Two things Mewtwo doesn't like)

I'm not claiming I know any of this to be true, but I think there is legitimate reason to believe the new Mewtwo is in a very strong place now. We'll know soon enough I guess =p. Excited to see how the tournament results play out in upcoming months.

 

[godogod]

That's true, a lot of top tiers getting nerfed is definitely in Mewtwo's favor.

 

[Philos-kun]

I think some people are overestimating M2. He'll be mid-top at best because, well, it gets comboed easily. His masive body and lightweight doesn't help once a person starts to understand how to deal with our tools.

Yes, I think this is awesome for him to have buffs but smart players will beat us. I've got many problems aproaching for people who waits to punish my movements, slow or fast characters against.

 

[Mr. B]

I think some people are overestimating M2. He'll be mid-top at best because, well, it gets comboed easily. His masive body and lightweight doesn't help once a person starts to understand how to deal with our tools.

Yes, I think this is awesome for him to have buffs but smart players will beat us. I've got many problems aproaching for people who waits to punish my movements, slow or fast characters against.

The great thing about our tools is the level of variation that you can achieve. Mewtwo doesn't work if you try the same things over and over, but he has tools that function in a bewildering array of situations... Look at how you are being punished and work in some variation... if your approaching FAirs are shielded, try approaching with double confusion, or tomahawking. If they are punishing your landings, try faking left and teleporting right. The key to winning with Mewtwo is to play semi-defensively (using SB for pressure) and to only commit to moves when you are confident they cant be punished in return. You don't want to trade hits, you want to win exchanges without being struck or you don't actually get an advantage... Our hits do lots of damage and knockback and it doesn't take too many to bring the opponent in reach of the 70% needed to disable > FC FSmash, and our upthrow is murderporn.

The new buffs might not make Mewtwo high tier in their own right, but the high tiers were also nerfed which makes the relative difference even smaller. We have been saying that Mewtwo is the (one of if not the most) underestimated characters, and after this patch you are going to see a lot more people start agreeing with us. personally, I think he was high tier potential before the 1.1.5 patch. I'm not complaining about the buffs, but apart from the weight balance I don't think they were necessary.

 

[ReroRero]

I think some people are overestimating M2. He'll be mid-top at best because, well, it gets comboed easily. His masive body and lightweight doesn't help once a person starts to understand how to deal with our tools.

Yes, I think this is awesome for him to have buffs but smart players will beat us. I've got many problems aproaching for people who waits to punish my movements, slow or fast characters against.

You know, Falcon is a even tastier combo food than Mewtwo and we can all agree he is High tier. The fact that a character is easy to hit or to kill is not enogh to doubt a character's viability.

 

[MysticKnives]

You know, Falcon is a even tastier combo food than Mewtwo and we can all agree he is High tier. The fact that a character is easy to hit or to kill is not enogh to doubt a character's viability.

I thought Falcon was high Mid-tier? Anyway, I think with these buffs and the nerfs to top characters like Sheik, ZSS, and MK, Mewtwo could make a case for being in High Tier. However, I think it's still likely he could just stay in Mid-tier. Only time will tell. But one thing's obvious, he's going to be moving up. I'm interested to see where the meta takes Mewtwo, and hope Mewtwo mains are successful in their endeavors with the character.

 

[godogod]

There's gonna be a spike of bandwagoners now. ugh. Nothing has annoyed more more than facing Mewtwos in FG, mostly the spammy shadowball, roll, and grab the entire match kind.

I wonder how many tourney users there will be that use mewtwo as a primary now.

 

[Metallinatus]

There's gonna be a spike of bandwagoners now. ugh. Nothing has annoyed more more than facing Mewtwos in FG, mostly the spammy shadowball, roll, and grab the entire match kind.

I wonder how many tourney users there will be.

ZeRo has confirmed on Twitter he has switched mains and will start to main Mewtwo now.... (kappa)
Anyway, it can't be worse than having those Lucarios who just get high % and then start to camp with Neutral B while we have serious thoughts about our life decisions.

 

[godogod]

lol he prank called nintendo the other day because smash devs nerfed his sheik

 

[Mr. B]

There's gonna be a spike of bandwagoners now. ugh. Nothing has annoyed more more than facing Mewtwos in FG, mostly the spammy shadowball, roll, and grab the entire match kind.

So what? They suck. I uptaunt them while they charge their SB, reflect it back at them, and then proceed to destroy them without charging mine once. The only time you should be getting annoyed with such players is with yourself for failing to read their obvious spammage and missing the opportunity to punish them deeply, firmly, roughly, and bareback.

Edit to add: Those bandwagoners came because they heard Mewtwo got buffed, but they don't actually use the stuff that got buffed? They are fools.

 

[godogod]

I don't really have trouble with most FG Mewtwo users, considering most suck ass. But ones that just play 100% defense(with lag even further exacerbating) with shadowball, confusion, rolls, and grabs are annoying. Shadow volleyball when its laggy sucks. lol

And yeah, I'm glad he got better... but part of me resents it because I like seeing Mewtwo underused and not bandwagoned because people see him as "good" mid high to high tier potential.. Now that people will be flocking him more, I can't really take pride in that anymore.

 

[Mr. B]

I hear you. I made a comment some weeks ago that Mewtwo is like a super hot new girlfriend... You want all your buddies to see how hot she is and thus validate your correct life-choices, but you want to keep her all for yourself, since if all your buddies see how hot she is she wont just be yours for long...

She wouldn't pash with those scrubs though bro... You put in the time and treat her with respect, highlighting her best attributes; she likes that about you, reveals her secrets for you... and never ever applauds when you fail, even out of polite respect for the other guy.

 

[C3CC]

I just love seeing everyone saying that Mewtwo will be high tier I've been saying this since patch 1.1.4 and even before the surprise 1.1.5 came, and I'm sure many of you have seen me spreading that message all around the boards.

He has a lot of potential but is often overlooked. Things are about to change. I don't think he will ever be top, but I will say it again: TO THE HIGH TIER HE GOES!

 

[Chiroz]

I've heard that argument before, but I really don't think Mewtwo's rise is all (or even mostly) attributable to novelty or MU/inexperience. I don't believe this. I think most matchups are flat or better for Mewtwo now -- because so many characters have trouble dealing with Mewtwo's neutral (biggest reason) and punish game (other big reason).

I hypothesize that match-ups are better than you think -- including against the top tier characters. Especially Now.

Nairo beat Blue because Nairo's a better player, but with ZSS's staircase weakened I think that's probably close to even. Mewtwo's neutral is (debateably) better -- and they can both wreck the other off a punish. ZSS has better frame data (which is significant), but Mewtwo has stronger space control. Probably still slightly better for ZSS but it's not a bad matchup.

Cloud (I'm not sure I believe he's top tier, but that's a different issue) gets totally screwed off-stage by mewtwo and is much weaker than Mewtwo in neutral. Cloud's kill options against Mewtwo are limited and punishable. I think this is in Mewtwo's favor

Sheik was never that bad of a match-up for Mewtwo post 1.1.4 -- and now with her kill set-ups further weakened -- he'll still get rushed down but she'll struggle to kill and be facing a raged Mewtwo with superior space control who can kill her with any of like... 8 moves. I think this is in Mewtwo's favor post patch.

Rosa and Mewtwo are 50/50, according to Dabuz -- I agree with this from my own experience. Mewtwo can do a good job of terrorizing luma with fast fairs and uncharged shadow balls, and tears her up if he's not zoned out.

ESAM thinks Mewtwo/Pika is slightly in Pika's favor. I don't know this match-up well myself -- but I think that's significant since Pika is really good at getting in and is a beast in advantaged state (Two things Mewtwo doesn't like)

I'm not claiming I know any of this to be true, but I think there is legitimate reason to believe the new Mewtwo is in a very strong place now. We'll know soon enough I guess =p. Excited to see how the tournament results play out in upcoming months.

ESAM said the matchup was 60:40 on Pikachu's favor, that is not slight advantage, that's an actual real advantage.



Sheik was an even worse matchup than Pikachu. Considered so by most top Mewtwo's, I don't know where you think she was "not that bad".



Rich Brown has been known to switch to his Olimar for the Cloud matchup. What makes you think Mewtwo wins that matchup, Mew^2 vs M2K? Is that it?

How can you say Mewtwo had a better neutral than Cloud lmao. Cloud has more range, more disjoint, (had) more run speed, better frame data, less ending lag, more damage, more kill power AND he also forces the opponent to approach him ALWAYS. Better juggle game, more options OoS and out of a dash.

What exactly does Mewtwo have that gave him a better neutral? Shadowball and Confusion? And that's it?

Mewtwo can handle Cloud, yes, it's not a horrible matchup for Mewtwo, he has a lot of tools to help him deal with Cloud and he can edgeguard Cloud incredibly well, but Mewtwo does not (at least did not) have a better neutral than Cloud.

Cloud probably has one of the best neutrals in the whole game, top 3 IMO. I mean just the act of charging limit forces the opponent to approach you. Approach a char that has one of the biggest disjoints in the whole game while also having virtually no startup and no landing lag on his aerials.



(PS: I do believe M2 can handle ZSS well and I agree that he is even with Rosa.)



You are all severely overestimating Mewtwo, this is the 4th time people try to say Mewtwo is high tier and incredibly good. It happened when he released and It happens after every single buff. I remember when he released people saying he was definitely top 15. Just stop and analyze the actual tier list instead of randomly putting him anywhere. Go character by character and compare Mewtwo to them and ask yourself: "Does Mewtwo do better against the other top tiers than this character does?" Once the answer is "yes" that's where Mewtwo belongs.

Mewtwo got 1 significant change this patch and it was his run speed. N-Air buff is miniscule, like all it does is make it slightly more consistent, it doesn't do much. Weight buff is welcome but isn't groundbreaking in any way. U-Smash change only matters if you whiff it. 30 frames of lag vs 35 isn't that much of a difference, you're getting punished either way.

I would say that Mewtwo might make it to top 20 in the game. I think he will hover around that area, maybe a bit lower than that but I am pretty certain he won't go much more beyond that. I would classify that as the top of mid tier, which is a good place to be at to be honest.



I like where Mewtwo is at now. Love how the char is playing and absolutely love the direction he was taken in by giving him much more speed instead of giving him more weight. Now he feels like a unique version of a powerhouse (speed over suevivability) instead of just a worse powerhouse (no survivability). He might not be exactly a glass "cannon" but he is like a glass "gun" at the very least.

 

[Quantumpen]

The nicest thing about Mewtwo's buffs/flaws is that they fit an archetype of a character that tends to be very successful in fighting games. Low HP, powerful options/control/mobility characters rock because as player skill/metagame knowledge expand -- strong buttons/character stats tend to matter less while options, mobility, and control matter more.

The main reason mewtwo was bad pre 1.1.4 was not his weight -- that was just something people liked saying because it's comical and was an unjustified weakness at that point. But glass canon characters can work, REALLY well. The main reason Mewtwo was bad before was his frame data/hitboxes were busted and half his kit didn't even work. He couldn't control neutral cause his aerials had too much lag, he was slow on the ground, and the hitboxes were just so bizarre... they whiffed half the time. That's all been fixed. He now has a ton of great options for every situation, top-tier mobility -- high kill power (which together make a deadly punish game), a great projectile, a reflector, lots of range + excellent frame data = great space control.

Sure Mewtwo dies like... one or two attacks faster than most of the cast? That's not that big a deal in the long run
Sure Mewtwo has a big hurtbox... so do most top tiers. Sheik and ZSS are arguably easier to combo than Mewtwo (Sheik definitely is) because she falls quickly.

Mewtwo drifts out of a lot of combos and set ups, and with such a ridiculous air dodge/recovery/aerial game, is probably not dying unless he's clean smashed off the stage. That's the developers vision for him, and that's the reason he's light.

 

[godogod]

^^^There's many ways to fix Mewtwo, Increasing his ground dash speed mobility, weight, other attributes(air acceleration, gravity, size), and frame data all benefit him nicely. As you said, a combination of them is best. Particularly frame data + an attribute

Cloud has more range, more disjoint, (had) more run speed,
Technically Mewtwo is faster now on the ground now. :D I definitely agree with you that Cloud gives Mewtwo trouble. Rush down characters and any characters that out range him or short(kirby).

Do you guys think another patch is possible at this point? Bottom tier characters got buffed quite a bit overall, and most of the top tiers got nerfed quite a bit.Are you guys happy with Mewtwo or are there a few things you think he should get patched up still?
-At the very least, IMO he should get a grab fix(increase range horizontal and vertical) and patch his teleport SDing issue(this goes for all teleporters). A weight buff to 77-85 range, and speeding up tilt and forward tilt (also up tilt having a slightly bigger horizontal range) would be amazing... I'm not expecting it, but that would really truly make me satisfied with using him.

 

[Chiroz]

^^^There's many ways to fix Mewtwo, Increasing his ground dash speed mobility, weight, other attributes(air acceleration, gravity, size), and frame data all benefit him nicely. As you said, a combination of them is best. Particularly frame data + an attribute

Cloud has more range, more disjoint, (had) more run speed,
Technically Mewtwo is faster now on the ground now. :D I definitely agree with you that Cloud gives Mewtwo trouble. Rush down characters and any characters that out range him or short(kirby).

Do you guys think another patch is possible at this point? Bottom tier characters got buffed quite a bit overall, and most of the top tiers got nerfed quite a bit.Are you guys happy with Mewtwo or are there a few things you think he should get patched up still?
-At the very least, IMO he should get a grab fix(increase range horizontal and vertical) and patch his teleport SDing issue(this goes for all teleporters). A weight buff to 77-85 range, and speeding up tilt and forward tilt (also up tilt having a slightly bigger horizontal range) would be amazing... I'm not expecting it, but that would really truly make me satisfied with using him.

I welcome any buffs but at this point I don't think we should expect any more at all.

I am kind of confused why Greninja's and Charizard's SDs were addressed in one way or another but Mewtwo's was left untouched lol. But I have already learned to deal with it on all the legal stages so I am fine as it is as long as the tournament doesn't allow Omegas (so many of them have weird corners I have no idea about and just SD randomly).

 

[Quantumpen]

Rich Brown has been known to switch to his Olimar for the Cloud matchup. What makes you think Mewtwo wins that matchup, Mew^2 vs M2K? Is that it?

How can you say Mewtwo had a better neutral than Cloud lmao. Cloud has more range, more disjoint, (had) more run speed, better frame data, less ending lag, more damage, more kill power AND he also forces the opponent to approach him ALWAYS. Better juggle game, more options OoS and out of a dash.

What exactly does Mewtwo have that gave him a better neutral? Shadowball and Confusion? And that's it?

Mewtwo can handle Cloud, yes, it's not a horrible matchup for Mewtwo, he has a lot of tools to help him deal with Cloud and he can edgeguard Cloud incredibly well, but Mewtwo does not (at least did not) have a better neutral than Cloud.

Cloud probably has one of the best neutrals in the whole game, top 3 IMO. I mean just the act of charging limit forces the opponent to approach you. Approach a char that has one of the biggest disjoints in the whole game while also having virtually no startup and no landing lag on his aerials.

I didn't say Cloud's neutral was bad (I would never argue this), but I do stand by my claim that Mewtwo's neutral is better than Cloud's in this matchup (and comparable overall IMO) -- for the following reasons:

Mewtwo threatens Cloud more than Cloud's threatens Mewtwo on a confirm from neutral.
Mewtwo has better aerial mobility and comparable aerial frame data -- very important since Cloud usually relies on this and when he can't he's in trouble (Pika for instance). Cloud also has pretty weak grounded options against a heavy-punish character.

Not Neutral related:
Mewtwo's ridiculous gimping/edge-guarding scares Cloud into saving Limit for recovery, limiting his kill options
Mewtwo is impossible to gimp or ledge-guard (which Cloud usually excels at):

More detail:
While Disjoints help Cloud -- Cloud's aerial frame data isn't better than Mewtwo's anymore. I'd also argue he's not that much better on the ground, he has no particularly great tilts, his throws aren't nearly as threatening -- it usually doesn't matter because of safe aerial pressure and good mobility, but Mewtwo matches him on those fronts -- and has a really sick punish game.

His aerial mobility is MUCH worse than Mewtwo's. Cloud doesn't have any aerials that are as commanding as Mewtwo's fair (he usually has uair -- but it's not as good in this matchup) and Cloud's strength is usually great damage off of his aerials and strong space control-- but that's gutted here since Mewtwo's floatiness/aerial mobility/air dodge means that Mewtwo isn't really too afraid of Cloud's usual U-air shenanigans and can play that same game at least as well.

Cloud's main kill move against mewtwo without LB (Forward Smash) has a lot of start up and is extremely punishable. Against less punish heavy characters this is less of a weakness -- but Mewtwo can really make Cloud pay for a baited aerial, blocked approach, or whiffed kill attempt. Cloud has a lot of trouble dealing with Mewtwo's shield because his approaches aren't that safe, his projectile pressure does't work, and Mewtwo can pretty safely approach with shadow ball pressure, a four frame aerial, and really strong range.

Cloud has a lot of trouble landing his kills or gimping Mewtwo -- while Mewtwo threatens Cloud severely every time he's off the stage. This constrains Cloud's limit usage and further limits is kill options.

Mewtwo converts against Cloud better than the other way around. All of Mewtwo's combos work, Cloud's combos don't work on Mewtwo

As for recent 1.1.4 Mewtwo showings:

M2K vs. Mew^2 is clearly a case of M2K being off his game, but it does showcase some of the above points. There is no way the match-up is that bad for Cloud -- and M2K made a lot of really bad mistakes (he kept jumping off the ledge to try and gimp which is just... no), but Mew^2 shut down a lot of M2K's options.

Mew^2 does well against other Cloud's in his locals. Void gave ZeRo's cloud some issues on stream. Blue's been doing well against Cloud in a pretty competitive region... and if you just watch the matches on stream you'll see that Cloud struggles here a lot more than he does in most of his matchups.

I haven't followed him as closely, but my understanding is Rich Brown is doing pretty well for himself (and Mewtwo) too.

Anyway I don't consider 60/40 that bad (Maybe because I come from the older Guilty Gear games and we'd have loved a 60/40 matchup there...) since I think pikachu is a very anti-mewtwo character (sorry if that wasn't clear in my OP). I also think the notion that Sheik was really super hard for Mewtwo came from pre 1.1.3 when she completely shut him out because his moves didn't work. Blue is on the record stating he didn't feel that was a particularly bad match-up post-patch. I agree -- obviously all match-ups were in sheik's favor pre-patch, but Mewtwo held his own. floatiness made it hard for her to confirm kills, fast aerials/good aerial neutral let Mewtwo score fair kills and keep her at bay better than the majority of the cast. Sheik had a lot of options taken away which really boost Mewtwo here: Her Fair lost range, his is better than hers for zoning now and this is huge. One of the reasons the match-up was hard for mewtwo pre-patch was sheik's absurd neutral game owing to the "beat everything" nature of fair. Her other kill confirms are so much less consistent due to the dthrow/fthrow nerfs, add Mewtwo's floatiness and I sheik will really struggle for a kill now. If it was 60/40 before (and it was at least as bad as Pika), I think it's 50/50 or better now.

And I'm not claiming this patch made Mewtwo high tier -- 1.1.3 did. Those were MASSIVE buffs -- and they were spot on. This patch is nice quality of life adjustments, they help but they don't fundamentally change the character -- 1.1.3 did. I will readily admit if he wasn't already high tier, then he's not after 1.1.5 (Though the high tier nerfs help him, they help everyone else too) I just think he already was, and I believe the rise of Mewtwo at locals is a strong signal. Not proof -- the proof will come, but a very strong signal.

Ultimately we could go back and forth like this all day -- but one of us will be proven out via upcoming tournament results. I'm confident it'll be me, but if Mewtwo doesn't keep getting results I'll be the first one to admit I was wrong.