Mewtwo changes Patch 1.1.5

[LRodC]

Cloud vs. Mewtwo is probably in Cloud's favor, but it's not like Mewtwo is helpless. Probably 55:45? I don't think it's any more than 60:40 if anything. Mewtwo struggles in the neutral and his main objective is to get Cloud to waste his limit on his recovery by forcing him off stage. If he lacks limit, Cloud probably dies to forward air or neutral air. Mewtwo's dominance off stage vs. Cloud makes me think it's not that horrible, although it doesn't mean he wins. I think the Little Mac match up is similar.

I also agree that Mewtwo will likely be high 20s in the end which is a very solid placement overall. That's also not bad either considering the gap between the top tiers and everyone else just got smaller.

Mewtwo is so much more fun now being a fast character. I'm glad the developers took him this way instead of just adding tons of weight to the original release Mewtwo. This archetype fits him a lot better canonically too since he's a fast sweeper in Pokemon. I'm fine with him being light since his strengths override his weaknesses now.

 

[Philos-kun]

It's a pain to hit Cloud with his stupid disjointed Buster Sword but you can always pressure him using Shadowball, a lot .

To be honest, just wait until he aproaches and grab him. You can use Fairs or throw him off the ledge for more punishing moves. Now that M2 is faster, is even easier to play mind games for an opening and Usmash works like wonders when he tries to land on the stage (at least Omega ones).

 

[Chiroz]

I didn't say Cloud's neutral was bad (I would never argue this), but I do stand by my claim that Mewtwo's neutral is better than Cloud's in this matchup (and comparable overall IMO) -- for the following reasons:

Mewtwo threatens Cloud more than Cloud's threatens Mewtwo on a confirm from neutral.
Mewtwo has better aerial mobility and comparable aerial frame data -- very important since Cloud usually relies on this and when he can't he's in trouble (Pika for instance). Cloud also has pretty weak grounded options against a heavy-punish character.

Not Neutral related:
Mewtwo's ridiculous gimping/edge-guarding scares Cloud into saving Limit for recovery, limiting his kill options
Mewtwo is impossible to gimp or ledge-guard (which Cloud usually excels at):

More detail:
While Disjoints help Cloud -- Cloud's aerial frame data isn't better than Mewtwo's anymore. I'd also argue he's not that much better on the ground, he has no particularly great tilts, his throws aren't nearly as threatening -- it usually doesn't matter because of safe aerial pressure and good mobility, but Mewtwo matches him on those fronts -- and has a really sick punish game.

His aerial mobility is MUCH worse than Mewtwo's. Cloud doesn't have any aerials that are as commanding as Mewtwo's fair (he usually has uair -- but it's not as good in this matchup) and Cloud's strength is usually great damage off of his aerials and strong space control-- but that's gutted here since Mewtwo's floatiness/aerial mobility/air dodge means that Mewtwo isn't really too afraid of Cloud's usual U-air shenanigans and can play that same game at least as well.

Cloud's main kill move against mewtwo without LB (Forward Smash) has a lot of start up and is extremely punishable. Against less punish heavy characters this is less of a weakness -- but Mewtwo can really make Cloud pay for a baited aerial, blocked approach, or whiffed kill attempt. Cloud has a lot of trouble dealing with Mewtwo's shield because his approaches aren't that safe, his projectile pressure does't work, and Mewtwo can pretty safely approach with shadow ball pressure, a four frame aerial, and really strong range.

Cloud has a lot of trouble landing his kills or gimping Mewtwo -- while Mewtwo threatens Cloud severely every time he's off the stage. This constrains Cloud's limit usage and further limits is kill options.

Mewtwo converts against Cloud better than the other way around. All of Mewtwo's combos work, Cloud's combos don't work on Mewtwo

As for recent 1.1.4 Mewtwo showings:

M2K vs. Mew^2 is clearly a case of M2K being off his game, but it does showcase some of the above points. There is no way the match-up is that bad for Cloud -- and M2K made a lot of really bad mistakes (he kept jumping off the ledge to try and gimp which is just... no), but Mew^2 shut down a lot of M2K's options.

Mew^2 does well against other Cloud's in his locals. Void gave ZeRo's cloud some issues on stream. Blue's been doing well against Cloud in a pretty competitive region... and if you just watch the matches on stream you'll see that Cloud struggles here a lot more than he does in most of his matchups.

I haven't followed him as closely, but my understanding is Rich Brown is doing pretty well for himself (and Mewtwo) too.

Anyway I don't consider 60/40 that bad (Maybe because I come from the older Guilty Gear games and we'd have loved a 60/40 matchup there...) since I think pikachu is a very anti-mewtwo character (sorry if that wasn't clear in my OP). I also think the notion that Sheik was really super hard for Mewtwo came from pre 1.1.3 when she completely shut him out because his moves didn't work. Blue is on the record stating he didn't feel that was a particularly bad match-up post-patch. I agree -- obviously all match-ups were in sheik's favor pre-patch, but Mewtwo held his own. floatiness made it hard for her to confirm kills, fast aerials/good aerial neutral let Mewtwo score fair kills and keep her at bay better than the majority of the cast. Sheik had a lot of options taken away which really boost Mewtwo here: Her Fair lost range, his is better than hers for zoning now and this is huge. One of the reasons the match-up was hard for mewtwo pre-patch was sheik's absurd neutral game owing to the "beat everything" nature of fair. Her other kill confirms are so much less consistent due to the dthrow/fthrow nerfs, add Mewtwo's floatiness and I sheik will really struggle for a kill now. If it was 60/40 before (and it was at least as bad as Pika), I think it's 50/50 or better now.

And I'm not claiming this patch made Mewtwo high tier -- 1.1.3 did. Those were MASSIVE buffs -- and they were spot on. This patch is nice quality of life adjustments, they help but they don't fundamentally change the character -- 1.1.3 did. I will readily admit if he wasn't already high tier, then he's not after 1.1.5 (Though the high tier nerfs help him, they help everyone else too) I just think he already was, and I believe the rise of Mewtwo at locals is a strong signal. Not proof -- the proof will come, but a very strong signal.

Ultimately we could go back and forth like this all day -- but one of us will be proven out via upcoming tournament results. I'm confident it'll be me, but if Mewtwo doesn't keep getting results I'll be the first one to admit I was wrong.

The fact that you think Cloud can't juggle us and that Cloud can't get good confirms makes me wonder if you've fought Clouds.

At low %s Cloud gets 24%+ out of any confirm and U-Air true combos out of almost all of his moves (N-Air, Falling U-Air, Correctly Spaced D-Air). Cloud is heavy and Mewtwo is light, so Cloud doingn 24% is almost the equivalent of Mewtwo doing 40% which he doesn't do out of any confirm unless getting solid reads or tech chases.

Good Clouds will not jump to juggle you, they will SH close to the ground with U-Air, any air dodge means you're falling with Air Dodge lag which means they will still get the U-Air. Sure Mewtwo has a los of tricks down his sleeve like Teleport and B-Reversing Confusion but Cloud can still read those, you make it sound like Mewtwo gets a free pass out of his juggles, which he doesn't.



Locals don't mean much unless it's against a good player. I am placing decently high at locals and regionals but it's due to skill more than "Mewtwo bears every single character out there".



Mewtwo has better frame data in the air? Have you seen Cloud's frame data? Mewtwo cannot challenge Cloud from above or below him, EVER. He can only challenge Cloud when directly in front of him which Cloud can just avoid being in.



I think the matchup is close to 45:55 (Cloud's favor) since Mewtwo has a lot of things that help him deal with Cloud. The matchup is mostly about baiting and punishing.



Also Cloud gets nothing out of his tilts? He gets an assured 30-40% and a juggle scenario if he lands one U-Tilt. And U-Tilt relatively safe on shield. PP U-Tilt is a crazy approach option. F-Tilt kills every early and D-Tilt puts us in a juggle.



I don't know what to tell you, if Mewtwo was so good, he wouldn't have as many bad matchups as he has and if he didn't have as many bad matchups, a lot more people would have already picked him up. Excepting Rich Brown (who played Mewtwo as a pocket) everyone who uses Mewtwo used him before 1.1.3, so all these "magnificent buffs" have not changed the opinion of even one single top player.

Zero placed him at 36th (counting DPit), Nairo around 30th. ESAM thinks he might be top 15 after 1.1.5 but not before.

Basically every top player agreed on Mewtwo being mid tier before this patch, most of them considering him in the lower half of mid tier.

I myself think he is in the upper half of mid tier and this patch pushed him to the very top of mid tier, but I feel like he still lacking to make it into high tier. I think he has a lot of undeveloped meta and a whole lot of possibilities ahead, and in time he will reach high tier, possibly. But he isn't going to be top 15 in the game tbh.

 

[LRodC]

ZeRo said that he considers him a possible high tier after 1.1.5, but his placements for tiers differ from most others, so that would likely be mid to high 20s. It was more of a preliminary placement that challenged mains of Mewtwo to push him further, and he didn't want to give him a sudden huge jump just yet. In the end though, it's just one person's opinion. It doesn't make any character definitively any place.

I agree though, I don't see him breaking top 15, but 25-20 is realistic. And that's fine considering that he used to be ranked as the worst in the first Melee tier list and 21 now in Melee. Being where he is now in Smash 4 is quite the jump and tons of characters wish they were in Mewtwo's position. Definitely one of the most successful buff stories of Smash 4 along with Ike.

Also Chiroz your custom title probably isn't accurate anymore considering Mewtwo's no longer a low tier...

 

[Quantumpen]

Zero placed him at a tentative 36th, noting that he believes he could see an argument high tier and is "excited to see results." I'm essentially saying the same thing. He's definitely not low tier, and I believe he'll end up being high tier (possibly top 15, definitely top 20) once the meta settles. Such a ubiquitous showing in locals is a good, strong sign. I don't know which matchups you consider particularly bad, but compared to most of the cast he does well against the top tiers and has very few matchups worse than 60-40 (and I think he mostly has 50-50 match ups)

I don't agree with you on the Cloud matchup (Though I think we disagree less than you seem to think we do). I think it's 50-50 at least. Good Cloud's use SH U-air in neutral but they definitely chase/ try to punish with u-air and it gets them a lot of kills in many match-ups and is one of the reason a Cloud is so scary when advantaged. M2K does this all the time. Cloud has trouble doing that to Mewtwo and it restricts his kill options -- owing to Mewtwo's aerial mobility he can avoid being above cloud where u-air beats his aerials and his fair's frame data is excellent -- on par with any of cloud's aerials and with as much kill power as cloud's u-air.

In fact let's look at their frame data:
Aerial Landing Lag (Cloud):
(Nair) - 15
(Fair) - 18
(Uair) - 15
(Bair) - 14
(Dair) - 26

Mewtwo:
Nair - 13
Fair - 14
bair - 17
uair - 13
dair - 18

Mewtwo pretty much uniformly wins on FAF after his aerials -- both of them get autocancels on most of their moves. Both have great hitboxes/zoning potential too -- though cloud wins here because of the disjoint.

Mewtwo's aerial moves have good active frame windows and come out pretty quickly (especially fair... I think only cloud's uair competes, and if I'm not wrong Cloud's U-air is a 6 frame move while Mewtwo's fair is a 5 frame move. Seriously, fair has some of the best frame data for an aerial in the WHOLE game)

I don't get where you're coming from with Cloud's aerial frame data just being "amazing." Mewtwo's is pretty damn impressive.

Cloud gets a confirm off of u-tilt only at low percents (much narrower on mewtwo than against other characters) but has a hard time getting the kill against mewtwo once he starts bouncing out of those -- provided Mewtwo can keep him off stage and force him to waste limit so he doesn't get a limit cross-slash off.

To me, a match-up where both characters have strong options in neutral, good punishes, and a coherent -- very effective strategy (Mewtwo: force cloud to waste limit, keep him off the stage, stay in front of him and control space with SB + fair/dtilt, and punish) is an even match-up at least. Cloud's not really good at rushing Mewtwo down. Both have their advantaged zones in neutral (and I think Mewtwo has an easier time staying in his), and Cloud's follow up potential against Mewtwo is hampered by Mewtwo's floatiness. Cloud's d-tilt is garbage and never hits unless on a raw read -- it's also super unsafe and rarely used by good players. His up-tilt has poor range and only combos on us at low percent -- only really reliable after a well spaced u-air at low percents and isn't even a very good anti-air (He has other options for that, though). His f-tilt is beaten by d-tilt and isn't a reliable kill move at all (it also won't hit in the range we should be maintaining in neutral)

And Mewtwo being high tier is not going to make top players pick him while sheik, ZSS, and rosaluma are around -- especially when they had ridiculous gimp options and insane neutral advantages prior to this patch. If Mewtwo is High Tier but the gap between high and top is like it was in 1.1.4... you're not going to see a flood of people picking him up. I mean hell, who mains pikachu and gets results? ESAM, and just ESAM. Pika's high tier, he can do well but only with an exceptionally skilled player behind him -- but he's not usually at an advantage in all his match-ups. ZSS, Sheik and Rosaluma definitely were pre-patch.

Mewtwo has relatively good matchup against those characters post 1.1.5 IMHO, which is the main reason for my optimism regarding top 20/15 -- but those characters just dominated a huge percentage of the cast prior to this patch (RosaLuma still does, and Bayo probably does now too.) High tiers show themselves the most at locals and regionals. nationals are always dominated by top tiers in any fighting game I've ever played unless the fighting game is exceedingly well balanced.

 

[Gimj]

To all new prospecting band-wagoners and pessimistically inquiring Mewtwo mains:

1) Mewtwo is not viable, never has been never will be. Don't play this character.
2) He's never been buffed in a significant way. These patches didn't do anything meaningful.
3) If he's light, that means he's low tier
4) He's too light
5) Refer to 4
6) Sakurai himself just recently confirmed that he questions why he didn't add Ridley when Mewtwo's size is clearly the bigger issue.
7) He's too slow and has no combos.
8) Down-throw still doesn't combo into anything, which means that Mewtwo can't win tournaments.
9) Side-B can't true combo into anything, so you are virtually guaranteed to lose a stock.
10) Even if you somehow play well with Mewtwo, he's so light that you are actually predestined to lose the match anyway so don't bother.
11) All notable wins with Mewtwo by the likes of LoF Blue, Mew^2, and etc are only possible because those players are indigo children, and therefore have magical powers that enable them to overcome the science of Mewtwo's absolute unviability. If they were not indigo, they would not be winning with this character.
12) Mewtwo is only a viable character with the following ruleset: 4v4, all items, Low-tiers only, The Great Cave Offensive.
13) If you believe you can practice and get better at playing Mewtwo, please refer to 10.
14) Mewtwo is not top-tier or high-tier or even a mid-tier. He is the absolute lowest of tiers, I promise.
15) He's such a bad character, that it is actually impossible to beat players who play those top-tier/high-tier characters. Play someone else.
16) If you need the opinions and approval of others in order to determine whether not not you can play Mewtwo competitively with success, please refer to 1.

Good luck!

 

[LRodC]

To all new prospecting band-wagoners and pessimistically inquiring Mewtwo mains:

1) Mewtwo is not viable, never has been never will be. Don't play this character.
2) He's never been buffed in a significant way. These patches didn't do anything meaningful.
3) If he's light, that means he's low tier
4) He's too light
5) Refer to 4
6) Sakurai himself just recently confirmed that he questions why he didn't add Ridley when Mewtwo's size is clearly the bigger issue.
7) He's too slow and has no combos.
8) Down-throw still doesn't combo into anything, which means that Mewtwo can't win tournaments.
9) Side-B can't true combo into anything, so you are virtually guaranteed to lose a stock.
10) Even if you somehow play well with Mewtwo, he's so light that you are actually predestined to lose the match anyway so don't bother.
11) All notable wins with Mewtwo by the likes of LoF Blue, Mew^2, and etc are only possible because those players are indigo children, and therefore have magical powers that enable them to overcome the science of Mewtwo's absolute unviability. If they were not indigo, they would not be winning with this character.
12) Mewtwo is only a viable character with the following ruleset: 4v4, all items, Low-tiers only, The Great Cave Offensive.
13) If you believe you can practice and get better at playing Mewtwo, please refer to 10.
14) Mewtwo is not top-tier or high-tier or even a mid-tier. He is the absolute lowest of tiers, I promise.
15) He's such a bad character, that it is actually impossible to beat players who play those top-tier/high-tier characters. Play someone else.
16) If you need the opinions and approval of others in order to determine whether not not you can play Mewtwo competitively with success, please refer to 1.

Good luck!

Lol, funny thing is that some people still say this stuff seriously... But if someone seriously said 7, it would make me crack up considering we're Sheik speed (and previously MK speed) and have the third best air speed and have had plethoras of combos even before patches touched Mewtwo.

 

[Chiroz]

ZeRo said that he considers him a possible high tier after 1.1.5, but his placements for tiers differ from most others, so that would likely be mid to high 20s. It was more of a preliminary placement that challenged mains of Mewtwo to push him further, and he didn't want to give him a sudden huge jump just yet. In the end though, it's just one person's opinion. It doesn't make any character definitively any place.

I agree though, I don't see him breaking top 15, but 25-20 is realistic. And that's fine considering that he used to be ranked as the worst in the first Melee tier list and 21 now in Melee. Being where he is now in Smash 4 is quite the jump and tons of characters wish they were in Mewtwo's position. Definitely one of the most successful buff stories of Smash 4 along with Ike.

Also Chiroz your custom title probably isn't accurate anymore considering Mewtwo's no longer a low tier...

I guess, hahaha. We've definitely come a long way since Mewtwo's release. From bottom 5 to possibly top 15-25 out of 58 characters. Definitely a lot of jumps.




Quantumpen let's just agree to disagree I guess.

 

[TheRealSkid]

For some reason I always had trouble against dark pit/ corrin /cloud before and that was the only reason why I don't solo main mewtwo LOL. (Besides cloud) how do you all think these matchups have changed?

 

[Zarxrax]

For some reason I always had trouble against dark pit/ corrin /cloud before and that was the only reason why I don't solo main mewtwo LOL. (Besides cloud) how do you all think these matchups have changed?

Well, corrin got nerfed fairly hard, so that matchup isn't nearly as bad now. Cloud is a little bit easier, but still a difficult matchup.

 

[Quantumpen]

One more note on the Cloud match-up in 1.1.5 (Obviously I've spilled a lot of ink on the MU already lol):

It seems like his sh'd up-air is not safe on shield anymore. The damage nerf lowered the shieldstun and you can punish it with an OOS option like fair/nair or a shield grab (If Cloud misses the autocancel, so probably not a huge impact in top level play.) Helps us in neutral a little bit. Between his KB nerfs and our weight buff I think we tend to like like 8 - 10% longer, which is something.
'
As for Corrin, I haven't played any decent Corrin player's yet so I dont' really know Like Zarx said he/she got some seemingly meaningful nerfs (especially to his/her mobility). His/her counter got nerfed. Some people on the corrin forum are saying the aerial nerfs helped his/her combo game but it's too early to know how that plays out.

 

[Chiroz]

One more note on the Cloud match-up in 1.1.5 (Obviously I've spilled a lot of ink on the MU already lol):

It seems like his sh'd up-air is not safe on shield anymore. The damage nerf lowered the shieldstun and you can punish it with an OOS option like fair/nair or a shield grab. Helps us in neutral a little bit. Between his KB nerfs and our weight buff I think we tend to like like 8 - 10% longer, which is something.

2 weight is 2-3% longer. If a move is way too strong (like our U-Smash) it's only 1%. For example we still die at the same % from FT. We might be able to live 4-5% longer from moves that kill close to 200%

 

[Quantumpen]

Yeah, but we weren't dying to FT much anyway. Up-air got a significant damage nerf + our weight buff-- it's definitely noticeable when you're playing the MU now that it kills later (and not just 3% later). I didn't bother working out the exact math. Cloud's fsmash got nerfed too -- feels more livable with good DI but not by as much, still kills annoyingly early.

 

[Megamang]

Yea, I'd say the Cloud nerfs are what is determining that more, though the weight buffs are a nice gesture and with a strong rage-benefitted character like Mewtwo barely surviving is a really nice moment.

Anyways, I'm new here, but plan on adding Mewtwo to cover some Megaman MUs. What are Mewtwo's toughest matchups? Also... hello!


How do you guys dominate Cloud offstage? I'd assume fair is a great tool, as well as nair to trade with climhazzard when he is going to make it otherwise.

 

[Quantumpen]

Throw a shadow ball when he tries to up b. You'll force an air dodge/hit him you can punish with a fair/dair. Go out and chase him off-stage, drag him down with nair. You can make it back up and he can't. or just straight punish his recovery attempt with bair/fair before his ledge snap.

His up b is just complete garbage (doesn't ledge snap) and almost anything you do will work. As long as you don't get above him he has little real defense because his fair has a lot of start-up.

All assuming no limit, of course.

 

[Megamang]

I knew it would seem obvious, it just seemed like everyone was sure Cloud was free offstage so maybe I was missing some sort of tech.


After all, much of the cast 'should' be able to edgeguard Cloud to death, but its really not that easy. He usually gets back in almost all of the competitive footage I watch, and when he doesn't it seems like the Cloud's fault.

Of course, Mewtwo is above average in this department, so thats great! Thanks for the tips, ill be sure to try it out since there are oceans of clouds to practice with.

 

[Chiroz]

I knew it would seem obvious, it just seemed like everyone was sure Cloud was free offstage so maybe I was missing some sort of tech.


After all, much of the cast 'should' be able to edgeguard Cloud to death, but its really not that easy. He usually gets back in almost all of the competitive footage I watch, and when he doesn't it seems like the Cloud's fault.

Of course, Mewtwo is above average in this department, so thats great! Thanks for the tips, ill be sure to try it out since there are oceans of clouds to practice with.

I can't really read your comments when your display picture is so damn cute.

Yeah, but we weren't dying to FT much anyway. Up-air got a significant damage nerf + our weight buff-- it's definitely noticeable when you're playing the MU now that it kills later (and not just 3% later). I didn't bother working out the exact math. Cloud's fsmash got nerfed too -- feels more livable with good DI but not by as much, still kills annoyingly early.

Just to satiate my own curiosity, I'll let you know exactly how much more we are living. I know all the %s for my mains kill moves so I can check real quick once I get home in 10 mins.




Edit: U-Air is 6-7% difference from the ground because of the weight + damage changes. The closer to the blast zone the less the difference is though.

 

[Quantumpen]

It's pretty easy on a lot of the cast.

I can't really read your comments when your display picture is so damn cute.






Just to satiate my own curiosity, I'll let you know exactly how much more we are living. I know all the %s for my mains kill moves so I can check real quick once I get home in 10 mins.




Edit: U-Air is 6-7% difference from the ground because of the weight + damage changes. The closer to the blast zone the less the difference is though.

awesome, thanks for figureing that out Ray =). I assume that's on u-air's strongest hitbox?

On a more interesting note, I think we're underrating the nair buff. It's a lot easier to consistently get Mewtwo's out of nair combos now. Example, on cloud, at low %'s (like 5-15% confirmed)

D-tilt (not a real combo here, just one of many ways to set up for nair) sh nair (d-i forward, then stop), ff near last hit, d-tilt, fair (dj) air.

Last double jump not necessary depending on percent/when you hit the first fair

This registers as a true combo, every time. It's super easy to do now. Stuff like this was possible before but I don't think it was this consistent (possible placebo). I got this off like 10x in training mode with basically no practice, and in some friendlies with my mate tonight.

Works on sheik too, slightly different (but consistent) timing. It's like 40% off a nair. I feel like the nair hitbox changes have some effect on how the enemy is popping out. I can't quite quantify it but I can pretty reliably get them on the same side now with DI (I think the hitbox changes help this, they fall out less so you can push them further to the two right/two left hitboxes and control where they pop) whereas before it seemed more random.

Not really a game changer because it's not much more damage than double fair, but it looks awesome lol. Potentially di-able but it seems pretty tough to get out of from my testing.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I've done some custom tests not too long ago, and here's what I've dug up.

If a +85 attack Ganondorf uses Reverse Warlock Punch on a +43 defense Mewtwo, Mewtwo is now able to survive the 1-hit KO while on the stage center. Before the 1.1.5 update, a +43 defense Mewtwo always got 1-hit KO'd by that attack, or at least in Training.

 

[VioletSmashfan]

Well looks like I might be back into maining the most powerful Pokémon in the World yet again (or at least secondary him, especially after what they did to Corrin and Cloud).

If he keeps getting faster with every patch update, he's going to outrun Sonic or bullet trains easily, and the weight buff still isn't enough at least putting him near 80 would be enough to keep him alive in serious matches, the only thing left is to remove the sweespots on his tail based attacks while keeping the same damage regardless.

Mewtwo went from defensive playstyle early on to almost near rushdown-like playstyle with just 2 patches.

 

[Quantumpen]

I wouldn't say he's quite a rush-down character yet. You still have to be careful against characters who have faster aerials than you, baiting/punishing is still important to his game (He's a lot better at it now thanks to his improved mobility). You can't just go ham on a top tier though, they have 3-4 frame aerials that will wall you out -- so you have to pick your approaches, stick to well spaced fairs and fast ground options like d-tilt/jab.

Nair is a lot better in neutral than it was, it doesn't wiff as much (still whiffs on small characters) it's easy to control the pop out for combos because you can di harder without them falling out -- I think it's now a really good OOS option against a lot of characters, and it combos into pretty much whatever you want.

 

[Chiroz]

I wouldn't say he's quite a rush-down character yet. You still have to be careful against characters who have faster aerials than you, baiting/punishing is still important to his game (He's a lot better at it now thanks to his improved mobility). You can't just go ham on a top tier though, they have 3-4 frame aerials that will wall you out -- so you have to pick your approaches, stick to well spaced fairs and fast ground options like d-tilt/jab.

Nair is a lot better in neutral than it was, it clanks with a lot of things now, it doesn't wiff as much (still whiffs on small characters) it's easy to control the pop out for combos because you can di harder without them falling out -- I think it's now a really good OOS option against a lot of characters, and it combos into pretty much whatever you want.

Aerials can't clank. Also the range is almost negligible btw, it basically makes it more consistent and makes it harder for the opponent to drop out, that's about it. It doesn't really make it better in terms of catching people. Also you still can't really control the pop out during Fast Fall, I've tried, the hitboxes are still too small to react to the opponents position, although with time maybe this can be something that can be refined.

 

[Quantumpen]

Aerials can't clank. Also the range is almost negligible btw, it basically makes it more consistent and makes it harder for the opponent to drop out, that's about it. It doesn't really make it better in terms of catching people. Also you still can't really control the pop out during Fast Fall, I've tried, the hitboxes are still too small to react to the opponents position, although with time maybe this can be something that can be refined.

I seem to be having a lot of luck controlling the pop-out during fast-fall, but on a character specific basis. Essentially what I'm doing is OOS nair, DI during the jump until I see them on the right side, fast-fall. It seems to work consistently but the amount you need to DI during the jump is different on each character. Seems easist on Sheik, ZSS, Cloud, harder on smaller characters like Pika. It's consistent on the firs three though, you DI back until like hit 6, look where they are, if they're in the right place fastfall after hit 7, they're in the right place for d-tilt -> fair x 2 or d-tilt dj - uair - fair

Also I know for a fact I was clanking through Bayonetta's attacks with Nair last night in friendlies? I'm aware that aerials can't clank with other Aerials -- but they can definitely stop some types of moves and make the clank hitbox (projectiles at least, and some other attacks to, like some of bayos).

EDIT: Apparently this is because some of Bayonetta's attacks count as projectiles? In particular her Wicked Weaves can all be clanked with by nair, but that's actually a special property of those moves (they count as projectiles) -- (I thought this was possible for all non-transcendent priority attacks). My bad

 

[Chiroz]

I seem to be having a lot of luck controlling the pop-out during fast-fall, but on a character specific basis. Essentially what I'm doing is OOS nair, DI during the jump until I see them on the right side, fast-fall. It seems to work consistently but the amount you need to DI during the jump is different on each character. Seems easist on Sheik, ZSS, Cloud, harder on smaller characters like Pika. It's consistent on the firs three though, you DI back until like hit 6, look where they are, if they're in the right place fastfall after hit 7, they're in the right place for d-tilt -> fair x 2 or d-tilt dj - uair - fair

Also I know for a fact I was clanking through Bayonetta's attacks with Nair last night in friendlies? I'm aware that aerials can't clank with other Aerials -- but they can definitely stop some types of moves and make the clank hitbox (projectiles at least, and some other attacks to, like some of bayos).

EDIT: Apparently this is because some of Bayonetta's attacks count as projectiles? In particular her Wicked Weaves can all be clanked with by nair, but that's actually a special property of those moves (they count as projectiles) -- (I thought this was possible for all non-transcendent priority attacks). My bad

Bayonetta's Smashes in particular clank with every single move in the game. It's something unique to her Smashes and it's why multi-hit moves are good to use against Bayo when at kill %.

 

[Megamang]

They can also just straight up hit her, ending the time slow and saving your purple bacon.

Unfortunately, bayo can just tilt you, or shield then tilt you, ending your hitbox, then charge usmash you. So dont think nair is totally safe.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

seriously how the **** is that japanese player on vine getting footstool -> disable. and why the hell aren't any of you talking about it

 

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http://smashboards.com/threads/the-psychic-log-metagame-discussion-patch-1-1-5.415950/

Probably a good time to close this.