Meta Knight will never leave midtier

TheKooladion

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Meta Knight has a really good move set, disjointed hit boxes, and frame 2 moves. His neutral game involves his fair, bair, nair, side b, neutral b, down b, d tilt, and f tilt. He has all of these great options and not to mention an outstanding recovery with 5 jumps. So why is he midtier? One word. Damage. MK doesn't know how to give damage. He has great kill options like f smash, up smash, and up b. He can never use them though because he can never get his opponent to kill percent. I find it taking at least a minute to get my opponent to 50%. Seriously, look up his attack stats. Most of his attacks do under 5 damage and even though he can string aerials together very well, his combos can only reach around 15%. Also he lost his greatest tool of all. His neutral b. It used to be a multihit attack that got easy stage control and pressured shields with easy. Meta Knight is a really fun character to use, and it's a shame to see him go from a tier of his own in brawl to a low midtier in ultimate.
 
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TheSkillMythos

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Meta Knight has the best edge guarding in the game, so I think that means he can leave mid tier
I can usually get my opponents to 80% in the first 30 seconds - I can KO them in first 20
 
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TheKooladion

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Meta Knight has the best edge guarding in the game, so I think that means he can leave mid tier
I can usually get my opponents to 80% in the first 30 seconds - I can KO them in first 20
He can't give them enough damage to get them offstage
 

Jfresh

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I think the bigger problem is MK cant find good kill set ups past mid percent, i.e where downthrows into up air or dash attack into up air strings dont work anymore. You can use first hit bairs or fairs to set up into like nairs or something or just throw out aerias or dair camp in the air but you basically just have to force edgeguards and use MK’s (admittedly) good offstage presence to *** them up
 

MERPIS

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His neutral sucks too he doesnt have any spammable aerials bar up air
 

Aquamentii

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Actually I think a very brawl-esque neutral game of walking around, advancing with down tilts (frame 3), threatening down smashes (frame 4), and retreating with forward tilts (frame 6), is very effective when you mix in his god-tier burst option dash attack (frame 7). As for air camping / neutral approaches, he has good OOS options: down air for pokes to punish faster moves (frame 4, + 3 frame jump squat), and shuttle loop for harder punishes and kills (frame 8).
So, while his combo game is limited at upper percents, his neutral is strong, even if his single hit moves aren't capable of much damage.

Then there is his edge guarding. Like TheSkillMythos was saying, it's pretty fierce. You can fling opponents offstage with backthrow, jab (frame 4, and another fantastic neutral option), down air OOS, or several other moves you may land in neutral. Once the opponent is off-stage, well, his back air has some of the highest BKB in the game, so edge guarding with it is almost completely percent independent. Tornado is the same: high BKB, with a long lasting hitbox to boot.

If anything, I'd say MK's stellar combos -- the down air chains into offstage backair / tornado, the up airs into shuttle loop that actually kill -- aren't quite reliable enough to qualify him for higher tiers. The potential is all there, though. All it takes is dedication to the character to perfect those killer combos and become consistent with them. MKLeo and Abadango elevated our opinions of MK in smash 4 from a mid to top tier, and very little has changed. His main ceiling combo was weakened, but in return the rest of his kit was buffed so he could do similar combos horizontally.
 

SleuthMechanism

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He might leave mid-tier.
..by which i mean he'll drop to low tier. As much as i like the character in his home series metaknight is unfortunately just.. trash in ultimate. horrible hitboxes with his sword being more like a pitiful boxing glove than a real sword, unreliable kill options, edge guarding is his one forte but having that simply isn't enough to deal with half the crazy good recoveries in this game, the only things he had going for him in smash 4(the best dash attack/dash grab mixup in the game, and being u-air chains: the character, i appreciate him being less of a bland one dimensional character like ultimate has done to the whole cast overall but... unlike the others metaknight didn't really gain any overall decent options in return). At the very least the dude needs a range buff(especially dair, why does half of dair's animation have a nonexistant hitbox!?)
 
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Kiligar

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Don
He might leave mid-tier.
..by which i mean he'll drop to low tier. As much as i like the character in his home series metaknight is unfortunately just.. trash in ultimate. horrible hitboxes with his sword being more like a pitiful boxing glove than a real sword, unreliable kill options, edge guarding is his one forte but having that simply isn't enough to deal with half the crazy good recoveries in this game, the only things he had going for him in smash 4(the best dash attack/dash grab mixup in the game, and being u-air chains: the character, i appreciate him being less of a bland one dimensional character like ultimate has done to the whole cast overall but... unlike the others metaknight didn't really gain any overall decent options in return). At the very least the dude needs a range buff(especially dair, why does half of dair's animation have a nonexistant hitbox!?)
Don’t get ahead of yourself. He may not be a brain dead top tier like Lucina, Inkling, Palutena and Wolf, but Meta Knight has things going for him, enough so that he won’t ever drop to low tier. The only character with many multiple jumps and good air speed, alongside good overall mobility, ladder combos, great edgegaurd game, recovery and smash attacks with good frame data. He can not be a low tier.
 

SleuthMechanism

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Any character can sound great like that if you only mention their strengths. I've heard the same arguments in regards to characters like mewtwo and k.rool before "oh but the combos!" "oh but they're so durable and have a projectile!". Metaknight's still a one trick pony in a game where nearly every other character has moved past that
 

MERPIS

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Here's a problem, its genuinely hard to actually come up with buffs for him that address his faults.
Lets be honest his range is never going to be buffed knowing nintendo. I can't really come up with a way that would make his neutral actually good aside from clipping a crap ton of startup and or landing and endlag off of his tilts and aerials, they aren't going to buff dash attack or dthrow either and those two moves bar up air made him who he was in smash 4, that's mostly all he had.
From what I can think of, all I can really find for reasonable buffs would be:
Changing forward air's landing lag from 10 frames to maybe 9 or 8, and increasing the damage while decreasing startup, he needs SOMETHING in terms of a good aerial in neutral, SOMETHING.
Increase nair's hitbox size, because the hitbox sucks
Decrease fthrow's knockback to be more downwards, it'll help to link into stuff,
decrease the startup and especially the ending lag of up tilt
make ladders a way to extend combos, but not to kill.
Decrease dair landing lag
I legitimately can't think of anything else.
 
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kirbstr

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This is not how to buff Meta Knight. What needs to happen is:

-his sword needs to be 75% bigger in all his moves.
-his Aerials all need 4 less frames of end-lag and 2 less frames of start up
-His tilts need 3 less frames of startup
-Dsmash and Usmash need to kill 30% and 20% earlier
-Up B needs to connect properly
-Down B should be able to platform cancel
-Nado needs 5-10 less frames of startup
-Bring back gliding

This character is so bad. Even if you gave him all this he’d still probably only be high tier at best. It’s gotten to the point where I feel like Sakurai is just nerfing MK for the lulz. Brawl MK’s moves in Ultimate would be fine if they didn’t have transendant priority. Yet they still give him a toothpick to try and kill people with.
 

Aquamentii

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Brawl MK’s moves in Ultimate would be fine if they didn’t have transcendent priority.
If you really think MK needs Brawl buttons back in order to compete, it's not the character's fault that something is going wrong. I'll quote myself from another thread:

But I don't like the idea that because a character is good you want them nerfed.
You don't want to learn the matchup, so you want the game to learn it for you.
It's the same thing but in reverse: I don't like the idea that just because a character is bad (which I also debate above) you want them buffed.
You don't want to work your way to the win screen, you want Sakurai to pick you up and place you there.

If I'm being harsh it's because that laundry list of buffs (kirbstr's list) is so ridiculous, those are the kinds of things I say to my friends when we are 100% joking. And you are 100% serious. I mean, really? A 75% range increase? 4 frames faster? You really think MK needs shulk's range and shiek's speed just to keep up?

For example, Mars has proven ZSS is a top-tier character capable of placing top 8 at super majors, but even he still complains about ZSS as an average character who deserves buffs. You wouldn't argue she needs:

-3 frames less startup on all of her tilts (yes, making her up tilt frame 0)
-4 frames less end lag on down smash and 2 frames less startup. And how about the Down smash actually kills too?
-restore her up air so it covers her entire body and comes out frame 3, like in Sm4sh
-50% tether range increase (also a nerf from Sm4sh)
-down throw combos like she had in Sm4sh
even if she got armor pieces back they would be balanced with the changed item mechanics. People can catch them/reflect them easier.

yeah... no. This is obviously a bunch of crap, even though a ZSS main might agree with most or all of these changes individually.
But to an outsider, it is ridiculous. And that is how this complaining for buffs sounds about MK.

I may agree that MK could use some of that Sakurai lovin', but we need to be a little more honest about how much effort we actually are putting in when we arrive at such ridiculous conclusions.
 

MERPIS

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If you really think MK needs Brawl buttons back in order to compete, it's not the character's fault that something is going wrong. I'll quote myself from another thread:



It's the same thing but in reverse: I don't like the idea that just because a character is bad (which I also debate above) you want them buffed.
You don't want to work your way to the win screen, you want Sakurai to pick you up and place you there.

If I'm being harsh it's because that laundry list of buffs (kirbstr's list) is so ridiculous, those are the kinds of things I say to my friends when we are 100% joking. And you are 100% serious. I mean, really? A 75% range increase? 4 frames faster? You really think MK needs shulk's range and shiek's speed just to keep up?

For example, Mars has proven ZSS is a top-tier character capable of placing top 8 at super majors, but even he still complains about ZSS as an average character who deserves buffs. You wouldn't argue she needs:

-3 frames less startup on all of her tilts (yes, making her up tilt frame 0)
-4 frames less end lag on down smash and 2 frames less startup. And how about the Down smash actually kills too?
-restore her up air so it covers her entire body and comes out frame 3, like in Sm4sh
-50% tether range increase (also a nerf from Sm4sh)
-down throw combos like she had in Sm4sh
even if she got armor pieces back they would be balanced with the changed item mechanics. People can catch them/reflect them easier.

yeah... no. This is obviously a bunch of crap, even though a ZSS main might agree with most or all of these changes individually.
But to an outsider, it is ridiculous. And that is how this complaining for buffs sounds about MK.

I may agree that MK could use some of that Sakurai lovin', but we need to be a little more honest about how much effort we actually are putting in when we arrive at such ridiculous conclusions.
I will be honest though MK has nothing that zss has. Zss has stupidly safe aerials her down b is the best move in the game and her jab grants her protection from basically everything that you try to punish her with. MK’s aerials are only kinda safe he has no real good moves or combo ability and his kill power, while still alright due to that monsterous fsmash, back air and stupid nair, is incredibly shaky due to not having the luxury of a set up like in 4. I think MK could be a very viable high tier threat because people are being too hard on him but he definitely needs SOME buffing, his aerials mainly are way too slow bar dair and nair, his dash attack needs either better combo ability or better kill power, and he may not need a longer sword but better hitboxes on dair and fair is a must
 

SleuthMechanism

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This is not how to buff Meta Knight. What needs to happen is:

-his sword needs to be 75% bigger in all his moves.
-his Aerials all need 4 less frames of end-lag and 2 less frames of start up
-His tilts need 3 less frames of startup
-Dsmash and Usmash need to kill 30% and 20% earlier
-Up B needs to connect properly
-Down B should be able to platform cancel
-Nado needs 5-10 less frames of startup
-Bring back gliding

This character is so bad. Even if you gave him all this he’d still probably only be high tier at best. It’s gotten to the point where I feel like Sakurai is just nerfing MK for the lulz. Brawl MK’s moves in Ultimate would be fine if they didn’t have transendant priority. Yet they still give him a toothpick to try and kill people with.
agreed it still pisses me off how freaking NONEXISTANT metaknight's sword is in this game especially! Like i'd honestly be fine if they even just gave him the range buff you suggested as metaknight feels more like freaking knuckle joe than metaknight here and it's just really sad to see one of my favorite videogame characters so badly represented like this.

like he still wouldn't be great but he'd atleast feel like a real swordsman and IMO be a lot more fun to play as for it since he'd atleast feel like Metaknight rather than "metaboxer"!

particularly egregious when you play metaknight in one of his games of origin and you immediately see that one of his defining traits is how prominent galaxia is as a real sword rather than this.. absurd pair of brass knuckles attached to mostly intangible animations we have in smash now
 
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kirbstr

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If you really think MK needs Brawl buttons back in order to compete, it's not the character's fault that something is going wrong. I'll quote myself from another thread:



It's the same thing but in reverse: I don't like the idea that just because a character is bad (which I also debate above) you want them buffed.
You don't want to work your way to the win screen, you want Sakurai to pick you up and place you there.

If I'm being harsh it's because that laundry list of buffs (kirbstr's list) is so ridiculous, those are the kinds of things I say to my friends when we are 100% joking. And you are 100% serious. I mean, really? A 75% range increase? 4 frames faster? You really think MK needs shulk's range and shiek's speed just to keep up?

For example, Mars has proven ZSS is a top-tier character capable of placing top 8 at super majors, but even he still complains about ZSS as an average character who deserves buffs. You wouldn't argue she needs:

-3 frames less startup on all of her tilts (yes, making her up tilt frame 0)
-4 frames less end lag on down smash and 2 frames less startup. And how about the Down smash actually kills too?
-restore her up air so it covers her entire body and comes out frame 3, like in Sm4sh
-50% tether range increase (also a nerf from Sm4sh)
-down throw combos like she had in Sm4sh
even if she got armor pieces back they would be balanced with the changed item mechanics. People can catch them/reflect them easier.

yeah... no. This is obviously a bunch of crap, even though a ZSS main might agree with most or all of these changes individually.
But to an outsider, it is ridiculous. And that is how this complaining for buffs sounds about MK.

I may agree that MK could use some of that Sakurai lovin', but we need to be a little more honest about how much effort we actually are putting in when we arrive at such ridiculous conclusions.
Okay, here I am replying to this nearly a year later and yea, MK still sucks. A lot of people are starting to put him in low tier now and he has basically nothing where ZSS is pretty much always in High or Top teir.

He doesn't need Shulk's range, but he should at least have somewhere near Marth's. He doesn't need Sheik's speed, but he needs SOMETHING. He has NOTHING. This character is NOTHING. He has 6 jumps, can edgeguard characters with poor recoveries, and has good ground speed. whoopdee doo. He can't kill reliably, his damage output is laughable. he has no neutral game, and he dies really early. He is BAD and it shows. To see a character who, in concept, should be really good (a fast, arial swordsman with a small hurtbox) be so bad is clearly by design of the dev team. They dont want him to be good, either that or they dont care about him. Really no one cares about him anymore. He is such a boring character in this game. Almost no one plays him at a high level anymore and he hasn't been touched in over a year of patches. I doubt they could change him in any way that would make him better or interesting at this point.

He is my favorite Video Game character and I ****ing hate the fact that they ruined him post-brawl. Was he stupidly broken? Yea he was. Could they have fixed him without taking away everything that made him a cool character that accurately depicted him in his original series? DEFINATELY. No Gliding, no range, Mach Tornado is a joke, Shuttle Loop is boring, they made his moves way too slow for how little damage they do, and he would have been low tier in Smash 4 if not for Up Air + Shuttle loop laddering killing at 60%. At this point I will have to wait until the next smash game and hope they do a complete makeover of the roster for him to not only be good, but actually be depicted the way he plays in Kirby games.
 
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The Rhythm Theif

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He is my favorite Video Game character and I ****ing hate the fact that they ruined him post-brawl. Was he stupidly broken? Yea he was. Could they have fixed him without taking away everything that made him a cool character that accurately depicted him in his original series? DEFINATELY. No Gliding, no range, Mach Tornado is a joke, Shuttle Loop is boring, they made his moves way too slow for how little damage they do, and he would have been low tier in Smash 4 if not for Up Air + Shuttle loop laddering killing at 60%. At this point I will have to wait until the next smash game and hope they do a complete makeover of the roster for him to not only be good, but actually be depicted the way he plays in Kirby games.
Umm... didn't the fans who hated Meta Knight in Brawl want that to happen so that they could actually fight him? Also, I don't remember Meta Knight gliding in the Kirby games except in his boss fights.
 

Hoodeedoo

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the other characters are better then him and puff is better at edge guarding
 

R O F L

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Umm... didn't the fans who hated Meta Knight in Brawl want that to happen so that they could actually fight him? Also, I don't remember Meta Knight gliding in the Kirby games except in his boss fights.
Meta Knight is able to glide while playing as him in Kirby's Return to Dreamland, Kirby Planet Robobot, and Kirby Star Allies.
He glides after performing a shuttle-loop.
 
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