Meta Knight secondary?

[5supermarioAkaChara]

So I'm a MK main, and as a player I have issues playing against Marth (especially ones that use side B), so I want to find the best secondary that would be a balance to countering Marth and countering MKs other bad matchups. So far, I'm thinking Toon Link or maybe Fox, but I'm not sure if another character could be better.

 

[iVoltage]

You can beat marth with mk pretty easily if you run under him.

 

[5supermarioAkaChara]

You can beat marth with mk pretty easily if you run under him.

Good to know, how do you recommend I get him to jump tho?

 

[Jamurai]

I agree with Volt, Marth is not an MU which should hold you back if you're playing MK. It's a weird but good MU for us. I have some... tips which will hopefully help.

• Strike a balance between respecting his disjoints but not being scared of them. Be patient, there is no rush to get in on him. Use your time to watch their patterns, find a hole in his wall and attack.
• Stay grounded like 100% of the time in the neutral game. MK is not a threat to Marth whatsoever if he is in the air.
• His moves are much more unsafe on block when not tippered. Use MK's great ground speed to get in and block a non-tippered attack and punish him for it.
• Once you're in, keep the pressure on. Marth isn't great at landing (poor Dair, and poor momentum-changing options outside of double jump) so abuse this. His recovery is definitely pressurable, but watch out for Fair.
• You can trade with Dolphin Slash recovery with front hit Nair to gimp him. Once you have the timing down it's quite consistent and very annoying for the opponent to deal with.

Side-B can be tricky but if you're getting bodied by it, you're not mixing up your defensive options enough. Hold shield for different lengths of time, roll behind as a mixup, keep your out of shield options in mind.

As for secondaries, Cloud is probs the best overall choice, but everyone has different difficult matchups. For example I have Doc for the Fox MU because I like it better than with MK. Marth shouldn't be problematic once you learn the matchup somewhat.

 

[Ulevo]

I do not think this match up is 'good' for us per say. I would say it is even. I recently fought False several times and have regular practice against Lucina/Marth. I would also like to add that in the match with Leo vs False at GOML, False was quite close to taking a game off of Leo with his Marth where as his Sheik did not fare nearly as well.

Dancing Blade if timed right can beat dash attack, and of course beats dash grab. His retreating air speed means that it is also difficult to challenge his aerial baits and options, and you cannot challenge directly because his sword is longer. The easiest way to win this match up against Marth/Lucina's who are not as skilled is to wait for them to dash in and abuse their long dash animations where they cannot shield to hit them with a confirm. If you are fighting a Marth that walks instead then it is a lot harder. For these reasons, neutral is a bit of a struggle. Trapping Marth on the ledge is also an issue because of the amount of options he has that beats out range. Ledge drop forward and neutral air, ledge jump counter, ledge jump invincible Dolphin Slash are all mix ups you need to be aware of. They are also one of the few characters that is threatening to Meta Knight off stage as he recovers. A lot of moves beat out Drill Rush, counter included, they have the aerial speed to chase you and get forward air kills off the side, and their forward smash can actually hit Shuttle Loop safely from the ledge without them being at risk. Recovering low and using a reverse Shuttle Loop ledge snap or Dimensional Cape is usually best.

The best way to beat Marth/Lucina is to not give them a neutral once you have taken them out of it. They have issues with landing, so in a juggle situation you should be able to get under them with a shield which covers most options. You also need to know your frame data and how it compares in CQC. For example, if they use a reverse up tilt on you out of shield and you do not know the correct punish, you could get up tilted again, which shifts the advantaged state in their favor. Make sure you get into the habit of always DIing behind them when they grab you, since this will help to prevent them from getting guaranteed follow ups at wider % ranges. If they jab you, jump away and air dodge. Also be aware of shield management. They cannot shield break you with Shield Breaker from a full shield unless you panic or already have taken shield damage, so make sure that you are using it as a 'bar' and only opt for it when its 'full.'

I don't think this match up is worth a secondary, it is just one of the more frustrating ones if you do not play it right.

 

[XDDD]

I've got a similar problem but I struggle against Ryu and a bit against Sonic/Diddy. Any secondary/MU advice?

 

[IcantWin]

So I'm a MK main, and as a player I have issues playing against Marth (especially ones that use side B), so I want to find the best secondary that would be a balance to countering Marth and countering MKs other bad matchups. So far, I'm thinking Toon Link or maybe Fox, but I'm not sure if another character could be better.

Here's a match between me and D, one of our resident Marth mains and Samus secondaries. Match starts at 1:56 after a random button check:

I apologize for some of the sloppy play and commentary ahead of time, not our usual standard guys on the mic.

D: vs Baroness:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSWnlmMVEso

Game 1 I lose even though I secure an early lead with a back air gimp, which is very powerful against Marth should you manage to set him up in the way I did. It's important to note even if you get that early lead do not play overly aggressive or foolishly like I did, because tippers WILL seal the game as early as 60% if Marth has enough rage factored in.

Game 2 and 3 I notice he is failing to punish me when I roll behind him so I begin to over use it to alternatively punish him. This only works if they don't catch on so make sure you are able to determine what your available approach options outside of dash and grab are going to be, as it can be hard to get in on a Marth that sets up a good wall of pressure to stuff your approach. Notice how when I put him in the air I run up and powershield any kind of rebuttal he might throw at me in regards to Fair or Nair and immediately grab or smash when it connects with my shield.

Outside of powershielding as a part of your approach it's important to remember Marth is combo'd just as easily as he was with 1.1.5 MK and that with 50-150 rage MK still has prepatch available up air strings. Final stock is a D-throw to u-air, u-air, up-b with read DI pulling in on the up-b. Stream cut out for a split second when I initiated it but you can see most of it. Also remember you can trade with Marth's up-b below stage with Back Air, as if he hits you during the start up of it you'll tag him with one hit of B-air and it will spike him. Nair is also a good long lasting hitbox that can trade with it should he try to space past the back air.