Q&A Meta Knight: Questions & Answers Thread (Don't make or reply to new threads just asking questions)

[Ulevo]

*shrug* I'm no expert. But he certainly won't be getting up air combos to death on non-floaties. And if they don't die, why should I care about the combo? /s

Here's a question; even if an opponent SDIs say, to the side out of up air, is it possible to get followups of any kind? Do we at least have some sort of frame advantage in that situation?

Why should you care about a combo that does minimum 36%?

The opponents cannot DI out of this combo at pre-tumble percents, and he always has frame advantage out of up air.

 

[Freakzoid9000MS]

Ugh, the over exaggeration is at it again on the MK boards it seems. Look guys, listen to Ulevo. He actually knows what he's talking about more than you guys. Also, if you're wondering about MK's punish game, it's still one of the best out of the entire cast. You just got to get good to use it effectively. Simple as that.

 

[C0rvus]

I was being facetious, of course. I know that MK is capable of strong combos with and without up air.

What combo are you talking about specifically, Ulevo? I have been meaning to level up my punish game. It's quite lacking at the moment.

 

[Freakzoid9000MS]

If you want to level up your combo game, practice doing Uair strings against someone doing SDI so that you can get practice at following DI at low %s. Also, learn how to do the Bair lock and footstool combos as these greatly expand on his already amazing combo game. Finally, if you just want intermediate MK combos, here are some things that you can do: Dthrow/Fthrow > DA > Uair > FF Nair > UpB, Dthrow/Fthrow > DA > Usmash > UpB. Some creative Uair combos that you can do on fast fallers are DA > SH Uair > DJ Uair > Landing Uair > Usmash/Pivot Grab/Another string of Uairs. I'm only scratching the surface with these combos btw. If you want more, you should check out my MK combo guide that I'm in the process of making. It should be done in a week or two. Also, don't be facetious online. It rubs people the wrong way and we don't know that you're being sarcastic.

 

[C0rvus]

To be fair, I even put the "/s" at the end of the line. Y'all are too serious haha.

Gosh, I really need to find a friend and hit the lab hardcore. I cannot even picture nair > shuttle loop being a thing. Do you have to perform it from a height at which it will autocancel? I'll just have to try it out for myself.

 

[Freakzoid9000MS]

To be fair, I even put the "/s" at the end of the line. Y'all are too serious haha.

Gosh, I really need to find a friend and hit the lab hardcore. I cannot even picture nair > shuttle loop being a thing. Do you have to perform it from a height at which it will autocancel? I'll just have to try it out for myself.

Here are some videos of me performing the combos. While it is in training mode, all of these are true even with DI, SDI, and when staling takes place in a real match. Also, the Nair > UpB combo works best on fast fallers and big characters because of how they get launched and it's easier to hit them with a FF Nair after the Uair but it does work on lightweights and midweights as you'll see. It's also hard to land the combo because you have to have enough momentum moving toward your opponent when doing the FF Nair as well.
https://youtu.be/GmgznyOjuQM
https://youtu.be/QKw0JCUaVS4
https://youtu.be/nH6-6wlCTag
https://youtu.be/lvfF0nxgEWI

 

[Jamurai]

To clarify, 6 Uairs to Up-B is certainly still a great damage racking combo at near 40%. It's when it comes to early killing that it doesn't work on many characters. A fair few characters have high-damage combos at low percents though, so I wouldn't call his punish game amazing. Although it is good.

As for when they SDI out, not really. Assuming they SDI'd away, MK would be facing toward them, and his forward-facing prowess in the air isn't very threatening, especially if he's almost out of jumps. Depends if they're far offstage or not.

***
I didn't realise there was another page, got used to there only being one or two posts at a time. SHFF Uairs are something to master to get as much out of your punishes as you can.

Pretty sure Uair > Nair at low % is somewhat unreliable post-patch, also Usmash > Up-B is only a mixup as they can definitely airdodge the Up-B if they DI the Usmash either way.

 

[Freakzoid9000MS]

To clarify, 6 Uairs to Up-B is certainly still a great damage racking combo at near 40%. It's when it comes to early killing that it doesn't work on many characters. A fair few characters have high-damage combos at low percents though, so I wouldn't call his punish game amazing. Although it is good.

As for when they SDI out, not really. Assuming they SDI'd away, MK would be facing toward them, and his forward-facing prowess in the air isn't very threatening, especially if he's almost out of jumps. Depends if they're far offstage or not.

***
I didn't realise there was another page, got used to there only being one or two posts at a time. SHFF Uairs are something to master to get as much out of your punishes as you can.

Pretty sure Uair > Nair at low % is somewhat unreliable post-patch, also Usmash > Up-B is only a mixup as they can definitely airdodge the Up-B if they DI the Usmash either way.

Actually, DI'ing the Usmash either way makes the UpB guaranteed lol. If the DI staight up however, it's not guaranteed. Nair > UpB isn't the most reliable combo as well but it all happens so and you never see this combo be used so it makes for an amazing mixup combo.

 

[Ulevo]

The first thing I would like to mention is you should not be doing combos in training mode. Obviously there is no staling, but what is less obvious is that there is no fresh move bonus damage, which makes combos that do not connect properly in training mode work in versus mode. For example, dash attack 1 to Mach Tornado at 0% is a true combo on Rosalina in versus mode, but will not work in training mode. If you did you combo testing in training mode, you would be led to believe this combo does not work and not worth using. Also, the combo counter is sometimes wrong and says a combo is true when it in fact is not, and the opponent will be able to air dodge even with versus modes fresh move bonus adding hitstun.

The second thing I want to mention is that players need to start looking at guaranteed forms of damage, or reliable frame traps, rather than pseudo set ups that do not lead to anything meaningful. Most Meta Knight mains are guilty of this in one form or another. Ito for instance is probably the most optimized high level Meta Knight main, but he still does things like down throw to Mach Tornado, which will never work against an opponent who DI's down and away and cannot be reacted to. He continues to do this and gets away with it a lot because players DI just away, but the odd time it fails and this is why. These set ups I see like with falling up air to up tilt and other such shenaningans do not work because the opponent can simply jump out, use Bouncing Fish, Flip Kick, et cetera, and usually rely on player ignorance to work than anything else. The basic point here is that you should assume that your opponent knows how to get out of your set ups, so you should be looking for set ups that net you an advantage regardless of what they do.

Up air to neutral air is either guaranteed against certain characters or is a genuine frame trap that simply leads to more damage. For instance, against Marth, you can do down throw, dash attack 2/3 depending on DI, up air, neutral air. If they air dodge, you fast fall and land before they do, getting a guaranteed grab, leading to 40%. If they do not air dodge, they eat 28%. If they Dolphin Slash, they are in special fall and vulnerable to whatever you wish to do.

There are some characters that you can get up smash to Shuttle Loop on if they DI away or in, but this is not worth risking when you compare it to the other combos you can do on said characters. There are a few characters this combo true combos on, such as Ganondorf and Bowser, where they cannot do anything about it.

Meta Knight's combos are very consistent and very damaging, you just need to know the percent threshholds. I have not done every character post patch, but I have done most, and there are only a few characters where your combo potential is limited. Sheik and Greninja come to mind. Greninja can Shadow Sneak out of all early-mid percent up air set ups, and dash attack to Mach Tornado, down throw to up smash or neutral air, and down throw/dash attack to Shuttle Loop are all you really get that are reliable. Sheik's frame is rather small and allows her to escape combos for her weight and fall speed she should not.

 

[Freakzoid9000MS]

I just did my combos in training mode bc of convenience sake and it was like 12 at night so I couldn't get anyone to test with atm. Also, I'll look more into that fresh move bonus damage when testing more combos bc I never payed much attention to it when testing combos in versus. Finally, to get off topic, can I do some matches against you Ulevo? You've been peaking my interest for a while now and I wanna see if what you know here also applies to what you do in a match.

 

[Ulevo]

I just did my combos in training mode bc of convenience sake and it was like 12 at night so I couldn't get anyone to test with atm. Also, I'll look more into that fresh move bonus damage when testing more combos bc I never payed much attention to it when testing combos in versus. Finally, to get off topic, can I do some matches against you Ulevo? You've been peaking my interest for a while now and I wanna see if what you know here also applies to what you do in a match.

I do not play on WiFi. If you want to see if what I know applies to my game, talk to Technology.

 

[Freakzoid9000MS]

I do not play on WiFi. If you want to see if what I know applies to my game, talk to Technology.

I have spoke with Tech before but I don't think he plays wifi and Ito doesn't really play with me as much as before. But I was just curious if I could see your playstyle and combos so that I can judge your MK Kappa. Also, do you think you could check over part 2 of my MK guide? It goes over MK's combo game and such for beginners, intermediates, and advanced. I just want someone who is as knowledgeable as me about MK to double check all my info that I compiled. It's not done yet ofc and I'm gonna be doing visual things to make it more pretty and organized and stuff. I just want you to review the info and the wording. If you don't want to do it, that's fine. I can try to get my friend bonk! to review it.

 

[Ulevo]

I have spoke with Tech before but I don't think he plays wifi and Ito doesn't really play with me as much as before. But I was just curious if I could see your playstyle and combos so that I can judge your MK Kappa. Also, do you think you could check over part 2 of my MK guide? It goes over MK's combo game and such for beginners, intermediates, and advanced. I just want someone who is as knowledgeable as me about MK to double check all my info that I compiled. It's not done yet ofc and I'm gonna be doing visual things to make it more pretty and organized and stuff. I just want you to review the info and the wording. If you don't want to do it, that's fine. I can try to get my friend bonk! to review it.

I meant to say Technology and I played each other recently.

To be perfectly honest I would prefer to write a guide myself as doing it from scratch would be more thorough than making corrections. I have been contemplating doing it for some time, but since results matter more than mere theory when it comes to credentials I have held off from doing so until I establish myself. Those reasons should be more obvious to some than others.

 

[Freakzoid9000MS]

I meant to say Technology and I played each other recently.

To be perfectly honest I would prefer to write a guide myself as doing it from scratch would be more thorough than making corrections. I have been contemplating doing it for some time, but since results matter more than mere theory when it comes to credentials I have held off from doing so until I establish myself. Those reasons should be more obvious to some than others.

Ok then. I was just wondering if you wanted to review my info that I'm gonna be using in my 2nd guide. I'll try to get Bonk! to look at it when I'm finished with it. I will also try and play Tech offline if we meet up at a tournament eventually in MI because I live there.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Despite massive criticism by the community at large, Ulevo has a better idea of how to optimize Meta Knight combos than most other Meta Knight players I have spoken/played with. At the very least, he definitely taught me a few things that I am implementing into my own game play. I received some direction that sparked a few ideas on where to go. I already have massive high level tournament experience compared to most other MKs. Now I just need to take what I've learned and apply it as well as innovate. My time with him at GOML was super valuable and appreciated. I have no one in my region who either knows the character to the extent that I do or shares their information.

Also WiFi is garbage and I refuse to touch it. I'll be going back to tournaments full time again in July. I have a region to conquer.

 

[Freakzoid9000MS]

Despite massive criticism by the community at large, Ulevo has a better idea of how to optimize Meta Knight combos than most other Meta Knight players I have spoken/played with. At the very least, he definitely taught me a few things that I am implementing into my own game play. I received some direction that sparked a few ideas on where to go. I already have massive high level tournament experience compared to most other MKs. Now I just need to take what I've learned and apply it as well as innovate. My time with him at GOML was super valuable and appreciated. I have no one in my region who either knows the character to the extent that I do or shares their information.

Also WiFi is garbage and I refuse to touch it. I'll be going back to tournaments full time again in July. I have a region to conquer.

Well, you got another MK that's after you and he'll rise quick once he gets a car. I'm going for that top MK in MI and I don't plan on someone else taking that title Kappa. Best of luck to the both of us and may the best MK win.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Competition fosters growth so I welcome it.

With that being said: I only understand results. Get some results and we'll revisit this discussion.

 

[Freakzoid9000MS]

Competition fosters growth so I welcome it.

With that being said: I only understand results. Get some results and we'll revisit this discussion.

Will you be going to Breakout 3 because that's the tournament I plan at attending? My goal is getting Top 8 at the very least.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I will be there. My goal is kick ass. See ya at Breakout.

 

[Freakzoid9000MS]

I will be there. My goal is kick ***. See ya at Breakout.

Cya there

 

[Freakzoid9000MS]

Finished the second part of my MK guide. I would appreciate any feedback from the boards positive or negative. Also if I missed anything in the guide that should be added, let me know.
http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-guide-part-2-combo-game-mixups-kill-setups-etc.437685/

-Freakzoid9000

 

[JustSomeScrub]

The first thing I would like to mention is you should not be doing combos in training mode. Obviously there is no staling, but what is less obvious is that there is no fresh move bonus damage, which makes combos that do not connect properly in training mode work in versus mode. For example, dash attack 1 to Mach Tornado at 0% is a true combo on Rosalina in versus mode, but will not work in training mode. If you did you combo testing in training mode, you would be led to believe this combo does not work and not worth using. Also, the combo counter is sometimes wrong and says a combo is true when it in fact is not, and the opponent will be able to air dodge even with versus modes fresh move bonus adding hitstun.

I had no idea the combo counter was wrong in training mode. Also I assumed since there was no staling in training mode, the fresh move knockback bonus always applied. This actually explains a lot.

I also have a few questions for anyone willing to answer them:

1. Is dash attack to up B a true combo even if you have tons of rage? Say 100+ rage? Because I've noticed people can air dodge out when I try it in real matches and I'm not sure if I'm messing up the timing or not.

2. How reliable is Tornado for catching landings? Can a lot of moves just cut through it? Or if you've noticed the opponent has used up their double jump/other options, can it be used effectively to catch their landings? I know you can use up B as an anti-air as well but you might want to keep it fresh.

3. How reliable is down throw RAR up air to fast fall bair dtilt reset? I know it can be teched but is the rest of it a true combo at lower percents (depends on the character but around the 10-25 range) regardless of DI as long as you don't have much rage?

 

[Clockzarb]

For DA -> UpB :
At kill % if they are able to airdodge that mean either they have too much % (and you have too much rage) or they DIed away. Be aware of the two different hitboxes of DA that influence as well on the way the combo works. From my experience rage is not a problem, of course it makes the combo fail at earlier % but it makes it kill earlier as well so it doesn't narrow the kill % range. It might even widen it.
So if the combination of % and rage is ok, you want to watch out for their DI and which hitbox of your DA landed.

 

[RosalinA]

OK, here's what I want to know. Does the latter combo still work on fastfallers, because I've seen Ito do it to Tyrant before in a Mk vs Mk match, or is that just because of Mk's low air speed (moving side to side)?
Here's the match (skip to 12:30 for Mk vs Mk):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDP9j35DZDI

 

[Freakzoid9000MS]

OK, here's what I want to know. Does the latter combo still work on fastfallers, because I've seen Ito do it to Tyrant before in a Mk vs Mk match?
Here's the match (skip to 12:30 for Mk vs Mk):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDP9j35DZDI

Yes it still works but it's really only for damage but it can kill in specific situations I.e. The amount of rage MK has, the types of DI and SDI the opponent has, etc. If MK has little to no rage though, the combo should not kill the opponent also.

 

[Jamurai]

1. Is dash attack to up B a true combo even if you have tons of rage? Say 100+ rage? Because I've noticed people can air dodge out when I try it in real matches and I'm not sure if I'm messing up the timing or not.

Once DA > Up-B reaches kill % they can airdodge if they DI properly, Up-B does catch jumps though so it's a 50/50 situation.

2. How reliable is Tornado for catching landings? Can a lot of moves just cut through it? Or if you've noticed the opponent has used up their double jump/other options, can it be used effectively to catch their landings? I know you can use up B as an anti-air as well but you might want to keep it fresh.

Tornado can be beaten out by a lot of things, but it's certainly a mixup to bear in mind. Especially as MK is a bit faster in the air when he uses it. Up-B is an anti-air I guess but it's high-risk, consider other anti airs like SH Uair, Utilt and Usmash.

3. How reliable is down throw RAR up air to fast fall bair dtilt reset? I know it can be teched but is the rest of it a true combo at lower percents (depends on the character but around the 10-25 range) regardless of DI as long as you don't have much rage?

At low %s the Bair can be airdodged, if you try it at 0% characters can even escape with combo breakers like fast Nairs. Not sure how rage affects how well this string works.

 

[Iceweasel]

After the nerfs, where would you consider MK to be on the tier list? Still high, or mid/low now? What are his best/worst MUs?

 

[C0rvus]

No real consensus atm but I think he's low high tier or upper mid tier. He loses to quite a few characters, none of them horribly save for like, Diddy; but the list is long enough that you gotta question his viability. Loses to Ryu, Fox, Sheik, Mega Man, Diddy, Sonic, debatably Mario and Corrin and Cloud by a little bit as well.

In turn, he has an advantage over Rosalina, Pikachu, Ness, and does well against Zero Suit Samus, Mewtwo, and some others. Of course, none of this is gospel, but it paints a general picture of a counterpick character. Though his learning curve is a bit high and payout varies, many of his players are dropping him or dropped him a while ago (Leo, Tech, Seibrik, Katakiri). Make of this what you will.

 

[BunbUn129]

Lower end of high tier, ie 16-20. I've tried convincing myself he's higher high tier or upper mid tier at varying times, but he's so unusual of a character that it's really unclear where he stands.

His worst MU is likely Ryu, because MK lacks the range and projectile that are essential for walling Ryu out, and his slow ledge options, low weight, and high falling speed leave him at the mercy of Ryu's combos and KO set-ups. He takes a clean 25-30% off a single conversion and dies below 80% to Shoryuken, giving him very little room for error. Ryu lives longer due to his own weight and MK's KO'ing set-ups being less reliable, though MK can get hard punishes with SL, up smash, and bair if Ryu over-relies on FA to get out of disadvantage. 60-40 in Ryu's favor. Thankfully Ryu isn't very common. Other losing MU's are Mario (results-wise; theory-wise it could be even), Sheik (slight loss), Sonic (may be even; Sonic is just annoying in general so that def affects views on the MU), Cloud (slight loss, at best even).

Among the relevant cast, his best MU is Rosalina by a long-shot. Other winning MU's among relevant characters are Pikachu, Villager, Ness, and arguably ZSS.

Problem with MK is that, while his reward is still quite good when he does get in, with up air (one of his most important moves) doing 1% less and comboing less effectively, and with his poor damage-per-hit, and vulnerability to trades, combos, ledge coverage, and zoning, MK requires too much effort and patience for not enough reward. Tyrant, Abadango, Leo, Jband, Seibrik, Katakiri, Technology, Demitus, among others, have either gone to co-main him with other characters like Sheik (Tyrant), or have downgraded him to a CP for specific MU's (Abadango). The only notable who's still almost exclusively using MK is Ito, and he's thankfully doing his best to reap the most of MK's conversions, and I really hope he can get some big wins at EVO while going mostly MK.

Edit: MK doesn't have a character who gate-keeps him, but going to a tourney knowing that you're going to be fighting multiple slightly losing MU's frequently puts a lot of pressure on you, and makes playing him in bracket mentally taxing.

 

[RosalinA]

Lower end of high tier, ie 16-20. I've tried convincing myself he's higher high tier or upper mid tier at varying times, but he's so unusual of a character that it's really unclear where he stands.

His worst MU is likely Ryu, because MK lacks the range and projectile that are essential for walling Ryu out, and his slow ledge options, low weight, and high falling speed leave him at the mercy of Ryu's combos and KO set-ups. He takes a clean 25-30% off a single conversion and dies below 80% to Shoryuken, giving him very little room for error. Ryu lives longer due to his own weight and MK's KO'ing set-ups being less reliable, though MK can get hard punishes with SL, up smash, and bair if Ryu over-relies on FA to get out of disadvantage. 60-40 in Ryu's favor. Thankfully Ryu isn't very common. Other losing MU's are Mario (results-wise; theory-wise it could be even), Sheik (slight loss), Sonic (may be even; Sonic is just annoying in general so that def affects views on the MU), Cloud (slight loss, at best even).

Among the relevant cast, his best MU is Rosalina by a long-shot. Other winning MU's among relevant characters are Pikachu, Villager, Ness, and arguably ZSS.

Problem with MK is that, while his reward is still quite good when he does get in, with up air (one of his most important moves) doing 1% less and comboing less effectively, and with his poor damage-per-hit, and vulnerability to trades, combos, ledge coverage, and zoning, MK requires too much effort and patience for not enough reward. Tyrant, Abadango, Leo, Jband, Seibrik, Katakiri, Technology, Demitus, among others, have either gone to co-main him with other characters like Sheik (Tyrant), or have downgraded him to a CP for specific MU's (Abadango). The only notable who's still almost exclusively using MK is Ito, and he's thankfully doing his best to reap the most of MK's conversions, and I really hope he can get some big wins at EVO while going mostly MK.

Edit: MK doesn't have a character who gate-keeps him, but going to a tourney knowing that you're going to be fighting multiple slightly losing MU's frequently puts a lot of pressure on you, and makes playing him in bracket mentally taxing.

I don't know if Tyrant mostly uses Shiek now, and I do know that Ito also only uses Sonic for the Fox matchup. I feel as though Tyrant and Ito will push MK far in Evo, or atleast make it out of pools.

 

[BunbUn129]

I don't know if Tyrant mostly uses Shiek now, and I do know that Ito also only uses Sonic for the Fox matchup. I feel as though Tyrant and Ito will push MK far in Evo, or atleast make it out of pools.

Other way around, Ito uses Fox for the Sonic MU. Other than that it's all MK.

 

[RosalinA]

Other way around, Ito uses Fox for the Sonic MU. Other than that it's all MK.

Oh ok, I was wondering which way it was. I just thought it was the other way around because of Fox's fast falling.

 

[Iceweasel]

No real consensus atm but I think he's low high tier or upper mid tier. He loses to quite a few characters, none of them horribly save for like, Diddy; but the list is long enough that you gotta question his viability. Loses to Ryu, Fox, Sheik, Mega Man, Diddy, Sonic, debatably Mario and Corrin and Cloud by a little bit as well.

In turn, he has an advantage over Rosalina, Pikachu, Ness, and does well against Zero Suit Samus, Mewtwo, and some others. Of course, none of this is gospel, but it paints a general picture of a counterpick character. Though his learning curve is a bit high and payout varies, many of his players are dropping him or dropped him a while ago (Leo, Tech, Seibrik, Katakiri). Make of this what you will.

Well, that's unfortunate. The 3 best players at my locals main Fox, Sonic, and Mario.

I have a few characters that are reasonably decent at the Ryu MU, but the best one takes a lot of practice and isn't even a good character.

Edit: MK doesn't have a character who gate-keeps him, but going to a tourney knowing that you're going to be fighting multiple slightly losing MU's frequently puts a lot of pressure on you, and makes playing him in bracket mentally taxing.

Meet my current main:

I'm sure MK won't be as bad. I've been trying to make Link work for about 2 years now (I started playing him just before the Mewtwo patch ), and even though my results have improved, that's mostly because I've improved as a player. I'm not going to stand here and say that I'm losing because I play a bad character. At least 65% of why I lose is because of me, more if you count my lack of time to practice or lack of training partners outside For Glory as part of that category. But I'm still walking into every match playing a bad character, and everybody else is catching on that if they avoid doing a few highly punishable things I can't do much of anything. I tried playing ZSS for a few months, and I just can't seem to get a lock on how to play her. I did okay-ish with her in Brawl, but somehow I make the exact wrong reads (especially grab) with her in Sm4sh. I also play Lucina, but she loses hard to almost every character with a good projectile and doesn't too do well against the rest. I sometimes keep a Roy for friendlies and low-tier night (which bans Link because another player makes it about halfway up the regular bracket with him), but he doesn't offer much that Lucina doesn't so I never use him in regular tournament.

So, I definitely need a new main, but can't figure out who to pick. All of the high-tiers I can think of I either don't want to play (Cloud, Ryu), I can't play for the life of me (ZSS, Fox, Ness), are cheap (Rosaluma, Sheik, Sonic, Mario), or have too many players that main them in my area (Pikachu, Kamui).

Thanks for the help. Maybe I'll play MK, or maybe I'll drop him.

 

[RosalinA]

What is MK's best matchup? I don't think it's Rosa, that's just her worst matchup.

 

[Jeronado]

Probably some floaty like Kirby, or Zelda.

 

[BunbUn129]

Either Puff or Zelda, more inclined to believe it's Zelda because she lacks the ability to approach or force approaches. She dies to ladder combos, is vulnerable to juggling in general, and MK requires far less precision with getting KO's in addition to having better KO set-ups. He's much faster on the ground with a faster dash speed, shorter dash-to-shield, and longer PP, along with better frame data. His short stature makes it even more annoying for Zelda to try and use her aerials, mainly falling nair.

 

[RosalinA]

So I'm guessing we pray that Tyrant and Ito get to at least top 32? With Tyrant using as little Shiek play as possible I'm guessing? No offense to Shiek mains but you already have Mr. R, k9sbruce, and others. I don't know if ZeRo still mains Shiek but I'm guessign no.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Isn't Samus still Ladder Combo'd and killed laughably easy?

 

[BunbUn129]

Yes. She's probably the only non-light-weight character who still dies to ladders.

 

[RosalinA]

Yes. She's probably the only non-light-weight character who still dies to ladders.

Any, ANY character can die to the ladder combo, but for fast fallers the ladder combo is more for damage unless MK has rage. Look here for things like that:
http://smashboards.com/guides/meta-knight-guide-part-2-combo-game-mixups-kill-setups-etc.932/