Meta knight Help

[Tristan_win]

Meta knight help

Just for the record I did do a few searches and look around at all current threads and found next to nothing on this.

So a few weeks ago I found out people think Zelda is pretty neutral against Meta knights and as a Sheik main this made me very ecstatic since it feels like a 2/8 match up for Sheik and learning how to play with Zelda in Brawl was already on my agenda.

Now I did use Zelda in melee and was about as good as a normal completive player could get so I have that and a load of Brawl experience with her as well. I could go into a tournament right now and feel like I would not embarrass myself and if I didn’t face any Meta knights would place fairly decent.

But…even with all of that and all the skill I’ve build over the years of playing smash I still can’t do jack against a good Mete Knight.

He just ***** me, even with Zelda.

So tell me Zelda forum what makes Zelda a neutral match up against Meta knight because I’ve tried every trick in the book and I’m still getting no positive results.

Edit: By the way Jester Kirby was the meta knight player I was fighting that caused me to make this.

 

[Jester Kirby]

the Den's fire spam got me alot when I was at high damage, but it was easily passed when I was at low percentage....when you swaped out the characters that was a good idea, but pure Zelda is a differnt story.

I mostly picked on how slow you were compared to me when you were Zelda. If I manged to perdict you right I could combo pretty well and stay in there close range. What threw me off was when you predicted my dash and forward smash twice to trick me, and your down smash threw me off a good couple of times. When you managed to hit me with the lighting kick, it can KO MK at a low percent so bare that in mind. Try more grabs when I'm in there close range, idk how that would work but I didn't really see you land a grab on me if you were trying. I noticed we'd shield alot vs each other when it was close range so I started grabbing you a bit more.

IDK who your more skilled with, but your Zelda/Sheik othed seemed about equal vs MK, so whichever yuo're more comfortable working with. Vs your Zelda had to think more, vs your Sheik I had to be 10x quicker with the buttons.

Your Shiek combos worked well, but so did your down tilt with Zelda, but the Zelda one seems like it's easier to escape from.

hope that helps some.

 

[S2]

I'm here mostly to sympathize with you. As most of us are unsure of anything that specifically ruins Meta.

I do not think that it's an even matchup at all. Meta's speed and priority makes for a bad matchup. Well, at least slightly favorable to the Meta.

His speed is the main problem as he can punish your mistakes easily. Not to mention his aerial game is better (unless you can a sweetspot).

Edgeguarding him is hard due to his high priority gliding, but Din's can still gimp him in certain situations (he can't airdodge in a glide, keep that in mind). Otherwise it's often not wise to jump out after him.


Watch out about the tornado. The problem is this, Din's doesn't always outprioritize it. The tornado's priority goes up as Meta presses B. Din's fire gets higher priority the longer you channel it. But obviously a Meta isn't going to tornado too far from where you are. Leading to interesting priority issues.

You outrange him on the ground, but only slightly. His f-smash goes farther than you'd think. And his d-smash is as fast (if not slightly quicker) at startup than Zelda's d-smash.


I'm going to tournaments every week, most of which are filled with Meta players (he makes up about a third of all tourney's, I swear). If I find something out, I'll let you know. Otherwise, just play smart. Zelda users are still trying to figure out ways to specifically gimp Meta. I'd treat it like a bad matchup.

 

[Tristan_win]

the Den's fire spam got me alot when I was at high damage, but it was easily passed when I was at low percentage....when you swaped out the characters that was a good idea, but pure Zelda is a differnt story.

I mostly picked on how slow you were compared to me when you were Zelda. If I manged to perdict you right I could combo pretty well and stay in there close range. What threw me off was when you predicted my dash and forward smash twice to trick me, and your down smash threw me off a good couple of times. When you managed to hit me with the lighting kick, it can KO MK at a low percent so bare that in mind. Try more grabs when I'm in there close range, idk how that would work but I didn't really see you land a grab on me if you were trying. I noticed we'd shield alot vs each other when it was close range so I started grabbing you a bit more.

IDK who your more skilled with, but your Zelda/Sheik othed seemed about equal vs MK, so whichever yuo're more comfortable working with. Vs your Zelda had to think more, vs your Sheik I had to be 10x quicker with the buttons.

Your Shiek combos worked well, but so did your down tilt with Zelda, but the Zelda one seems like it's easier to escape from.

hope that helps some.

I didn't expect you to actually post Jester, anyways it's nice to have your intake but hitting Meta knight with a lighting kick is darn near impossible because of his size, disjointed hit boxes when attack, and speed. Because of all theses things it's very unwise to try as you will most likely get punished, which you demonstrated countless times to me.

The reasoning well at least on my end about us both shield frequently near each other was that I had no options of attack and was waiting for you to make the first move so I may avoid and counter or just run away. Usually I don't let this happen but against a Meta Knights or Sonics it's really hard to approach some times without getting hit away or in your cased down smashed.

And as far as overall skill my Sheik is way better then my Zelda it’s just a really horrible match up for Sheik

 

[Aeyr]

The only metaknight I have played against was a b and up-b spamming scrub. It got to the point where I'd just air dodge his up-b spam and kill him with an u-air. As for his tornado, you can try to time Zelda's f-smash to hit him or shield the majority of the hits and try to attack him before he tries to spam it again. It's a pretty hard matchup in my opinion, especially since getting him on his last stock will cause him to just spam that **** tornado over and over so your high in percents and he can get an easy kill (my opponent anyway).

-thought it was funny though when my brother picked up mk for the first time against this guy and used the same tactics he was he easily won....

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

okay so here's the best way to approach fighting a metaknight:

-DON'T APPROACH METAKNIGHT. he's going to punish you if you dash attack him by spotdodging and punishing your cooldown lag. he'll just whack you out of a dash Usmash... you could get lucky and hope he reacts incorrectly, but I wouldn't bet on it.

-His air game will kill yours, so STAY GROUNDED unless moving in for a Uair kill.

- Lots of your moves, if timed correctly, will go through his priority tornado.

-DON'T LET HIM TOO CLOSE Dsmash if he's right on top of you.

-Use din's to force him to approach.

-Usmash destroys any attempt he makes to come at you from the air. It'll be your best friend.

-Usmash allso punishes a power shielded shuttle loop.

- he's REALLY lightweight so you can kill him at obscenely low damages as long as one of your KO moves is relatively fresh.

- Be smart with Farore's wind. It's a slow recovery, so make sure you employ it in the safest manner possible

-A glide is easily punnished by Din's fire

 

[Tristan_win]

okay so here's the best way to approach fighting a metaknight:

-DON'T APPROACH METAKNIGHT. he's going to punish you if you dash attack him by spotdodging and punishing your cooldown lag. he'll just whack you out of a dash Usmash... you could get lucky and hope he reacts incorrectly, but I wouldn't bet on it.

-His air game will kill yours, so STAY GROUNDED unless moving in for a Uair kill.

- Lots of your moves, if timed correctly, will go through his priority tornado.

-DON'T LET HIM TOO CLOSE Dsmash if he's right on top of you.

-Use din's to force him to approach.

-Usmash destroys any attempt he makes to come at you from the air. It'll be your best friend.

-Usmash allso punishes a power shielded shuttle loop.

- he's REALLY lightweight so you can kill him at obscenely low damages as long as one of your KO moves is relatively fresh.

- Be smart with Farore's wind. It's a slow recovery, so make sure you employ it in the safest manner possible

-A glide is easily punnished by Din's fire

Ahh, now this is stuff I can take to the bank

Thank you Sonic, got any more?

edit: I also thank S2 for his smash theory and information related to meta vs Zelda battles.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ahh, now this is stuff I can take to the bank

Thank you Sonic, got any more?

edit: I also thank S2 for his smash theory and information related to meta vs Zelda battles.

hmm... well.. if you can short hop into a lighting kick, I'm pretty sure you can KO metaknight at 50%

if he goes up with his tornado and you find yourself below him, he can't airdodge, Uair will kill him at low damage, if Uair has a lot of decay on it, Utilt is also a strong option. if neither of those are practical, Usmash is good for building damage and high damage KOs

Din's fire is quite capable of actually KOing metaknight if his damage and screen position are high enough or close enough to the edge.

DON'T TRY TO FEND OFF HIS AERIALS, they outrange yours.. just avoid him. If he's dumb enough to get in lightning kick range then punish him with a FRESH lighting kick instead of one you failed to land 7 times.

Save a jump when you are in the air.. it makes you more versitile and you have a better chance of escaping.

You won't get off your spike... don't even try it.

You also will never land your Nair because of its range... only use it to refresh other moves.

Don't neglect tilts or her neutral A. You need all the speed to can get in this matchup, and they refresh your KO moves.

if your Dtilt causes Metaknight trip, which it's likely to do, it's impossible for him to avoid a Fsmash if you follow up with it. (Moral: follow up successful trips with Fsmash)

Nayru's love is a great "get the hell off of me" move, and since you won't be reflecting anything, it'll normally be pretty fresh. it's a great alternative to Dsmash when he's too close. it tends to be better at dealing damage, but it doesn't have the KOing power.

Edit: KEEP IN MIND that even though the matchup is even, he WILL win if you make too many mistakes. Don't get complacent just because you are one of MK's harder matchups

 

[Downshift]

Yeah, I find that with faster opponents, especially MK, approaching them in any fashion results in combo punishment, even from a novice player.
I camp, and make them come to me.
Then I will roll, spot dodge, shield, grab, use NL, and smash.
I rely on my close/mid range arsenal.

The main thing I have an issue countering is that Up-B move...

 

[HolyForce]

. . .

Watch out about the tornado. The problem is this, Din's doesn't always outprioritize it. The tornado's priority goes up as Meta presses B. Din's fire gets higher priority the longer you channel it. But obviously a Meta isn't going to tornado too far from where you are. Leading to interesting priority issues.

. . .

As a Meta Knight main, I would like to correct you that Meta Knight's Mach Tornado loses priority over time.

This can be seen by taking two Meta Knights and having them Mach Tornado into eachother. Regardless of direction, speed, etc. . . it will be consistant that the Meta Knight with the "newest" Mach Torando wins.

As far as how Zelda can better defeat Meta Knight, I'll have to think about it but I would advise the Zelda play very defensive.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

The main thing I have an issue countering is that Up-B move...

All you have to do is shield i and then follow up with a Usmash.

 

[Tristan_win]

All you have to do is shield i and then follow up with a Usmash.

I wish it was that easy but if the Meta knight hits the lower part of your shield and immediately start doing his neutral A attack there's nothing you can do

Also even if he doesn't do the neutral A attack because of his small size you will never reach a grounded Meta knight with a usmash

 

[sFoster]

tristan you can hit a grounded MK with usmash, you just need to be close enough.
it's definitely more difficult because of his size, but possibly you can space a hyphen smash into him

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

As a Meta Knight main, I would like to correct you that Meta Knight's Mach Tornado loses priority over time.

This can be seen by taking two Meta Knights and having them Mach Tornado into eachother. Regardless of direction, speed, etc. . . it will be consistant that the Meta Knight with the "newest" Mach Torando wins.

As far as how Zelda can better defeat Meta Knight, I'll have to think about it but I would advise the Zelda play very defensive.

Actually how the tornado works is that it's weakest at the beginning and the end, and strongest at the middle. Think of the priority like a hill. It starts low, goes high, and sinks again.

 

[HolyForce]

Actually how the tornado works is that it's weakest at the beginning and the end, and strongest at the middle. Think of the priority like a hill. It starts low, goes high, and sinks again.

I have reason to believe otherwise. We could always test sometime, bro

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I wish it was that easy but if the Meta knight hits the lower part of your shield and immediately start doing his neutral A attack there's nothing you can do

Also even if he doesn't do the neutral A attack because of his small size you will never reach a grounded Meta knight with a usmash

what? seriously, if you powersheild his Up+B you can easily drop your sheild in time to Usmash him when he finishes his loop, he can't attack through it, though it's funny to watch him try.

I'm not even sure if you need to powersheild it.

 

[S2]

Good tips Sonic Hedgedawg.

As far as the tornado's priority, I was under the impression that rapidly pressing B increases priority (along with it's length and height). I could be wrong though.

 

[Downshift]

what? seriously, if you powersheild his Up+B you can easily drop your sheild in time to Usmash him when he finishes his loop, he can't attack through it, though it's funny to watch him try.

I'm not even sure if you need to powersheild it.

I only play the CPU9 and my cousin, but they usually use up some of my shield with the tornado then follow with Up-B that hits through. They dont spam it either so it doesnt seem to lose much priority or power.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

well this is simple then:

Don't shield his tornado. You can hit him through it so why not do that?

besides, I'm pretty sure that the tornado has enough cooldown lag that it doesn't ever combo into his Up+B

 

[popsofctown]

hmm... well.. if you can short hop into a lighting kick, and since you won't be reflecting anything, it'll normally be pretty fresh.

Nayru's Love decays after successful reflections? I thought the converted projectile decays. Has someone confirmed this for sure, or have you just never really thought about it?


Something that helps me out in matchups similar to MetaKnight v. Zelda is "psychic kicks". If the Meta Knight is consistently using a bunch of SH approaches, and you manage to catch the pattern and get into his head, you can short hop just as he short hops and lightning kick him. He'll move into the kick and get hit.
If you try to do this as a reaction to a short hop, it won't work. SH v. SH lightning kicks only work if they are psychic, if you can figure out he was about to do the short hop.

It's a great way to get kills, there is a risk involved though. You could still sourspot, but if the psychic kick sourspots you will probably be safe.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

if you spam nayru's love, it should be decaying... I'm just saying, you won;t be using it to reflect projectiles, therefore, it won't be used as often and won't have experienced as much decay.

 

[popsofctown]

ok, thanks

 

[Downshift]

well this is simple then:

Don't shield his tornado. You can hit him through it so why not do that?

besides, I'm pretty sure that the tornado has enough cooldown lag that it doesn't ever combo into his Up+B

I just need to work on powersheilding.
I didnt know you could do that until I saw it on here.
I dont have much time to practice and can only practice on CPU9s anyway.

 

[Rhyfelwyr]

I have reason to believe otherwise. We could always test sometime, bro

I have tested it.

The reason it seems like a new tornado always wins is because the old tornado is losing priority, while the new one is gaining.

Good tips Sonic Hedgedawg.

As far as the tornado's priority, I was under the impression that rapidly pressing B increases priority (along with it's length and height). I could be wrong though.

Pressing B is what increases the priority, but at a certain point it doesn't help anymore, and the tornado begins to lose priority.

 

[Oh Snap]

Thanks for all the tips. I'll defeintely keep this in mind when I face a Meta in the future since these annoying thing gives me a hell lot of trouble.

 

[sligmasta]

i'm a mk main who's primary competition is a zelda mainer.

dins fire spam, as with most matchups, is a must.

your range and power are your best weapons against meta, dont let him in close, try to keep him at fsmash range and you should be ok

should mk get in close, your probably in trouble, you want to get him out of there

as a mk, i find that every once and a while a zelda can get the drop on me up close through liberal use of neutral a's, they come out to fast to shield grab, and are pretty freakin strong.

meta is really suseptible to zeldas down tilt, if you get one off, you can get atleast 4 more in there before we can di out of it

hope that helps!

 

[FirebyrdXX]

How effective would you say shield grabbing is? Zelda's grab range isn't special, and a good MK will short hop fair and then retreat before landing, most likely out of grab range. You could easily grab his dash attack though. Although that may be better to d-tilt followed by f-smash.