Melee's biggest flaw...

[psicicle]

Ha ha it's 9 PM here because Im on the other side of the world!

(non-spam below)

"giving players 'safer' ways to break clinches (neutral jabs that push opponents away and recover faster etc)"

sounds kind of like fox's shine. Close to unpunishable in the clinch game. If everybody had a shine-jab (or even ganon's jab) smash bros would cause the wii to malfunction with all the shiny flashing!!

 

[Drunken_Dragon]

why would the shorter range attacks (ie: jabs, pokes) be slower? from the sounds of it you want a more "punishable" game. missing 2-3 frames of a punishment in smash (sheild grab, whiff punish) can decied the match. but i disagree, safe moves are safe moves, but dont make the unsafe moves easier to punish. that would congeal the high level play even more.

edit: there is very little luck in competative games, people do things inately sometimes and they work, if something "random" or "lucky" happens it should automatically be recognized by two decent players. (ie: someone moving a certian way to avoid one of fausts random items in GG, but it is another one, so they get hit/comboed etc.)

calling a move "random" in all honesty is an excuse.

 

[Digital Watches]

Most of us like the competable randomness. Smash is a game about fun and skill in the same game. Street Fighter and the like don't have major tournaments mostly because they aren't tournament-worthy games; they are not based on skill in many ways.

Funny, that's what other fighting game players say about smash.

In fact... that's what I hear from a lot of people who suck at any game. "It doesn't take skill." Also, the proposition that no tournaments exist for other fighting games is hilarious.


But moving on to the actual topic of this conversation: Close-in fighting is harder, but not "random" as you say. There are still numerous options availible, and really, the only difference is a higher requirement for speed in reaction time and/or prediction that one must employ, since moves at close range tend to be faster. This is true of a lot of games, and really, I don't really see the problem.

 

[ToyzSoldier]

If you want me to explain my proposed system in any more detail just ask.

Please do because the way Sensai put it, really made your idea seem unviable by changing the core of the game, mistake then punish, to just another layer of the onion. Now mistakes don't always lead to punishment.

While the core must stay the same. I'd like to see, the way you put it, the 'safer' ways to break clinches.

 

[MookieRah]

I'm just going to present the counter argument to all this that has all the evidence on it's side:

Anticipating your opponents moves are not statistically random enough to make the game boil down to luck. If that was the case then high level play would hit a cap, in which case it hasn't. People are getting better and better at reading their opponents, as well as discovering new strategies and counter-strategies.

I can see from your posts that you begin to feel that it will devolve into a constant rock paper scissors, in which there is equal weight for rock, paper, and scissors. Sirlin said that in order for a game of rock, paper, scissors to work in a fighting game there needs to be an "imbalance" or otherwise it would indeed be random. The thing is, melee tends to have more than three options for any given situation. On top of that, most players tend to play towards one style more than others. Some people don't use all the options, and then one can deduce the best course of action. Good players switch it up more, but you can only disguise your intentions so much without it affecting your play adversely, and even the best players fall into habit on occasion.

What it boils down to is this. Humans aren't random. Even with experience we follow logical as well as habitual patterns. If you can get on the same wavelength as your opponent and take advantage of it, it generates tension to your opponent. The more pressure they feel, the more likely they will make mistakes. This is what you call the flow of the match. Good players are well adept at taking and maintaining the flow. You can see the effects of it on countless vids. Most high level matches flow back and forth if it is an even match, and it boils down to who is able to control the flow the most (or at the most pivotal moments) in the match. Typically the flow of the match is restarted once someone has been KOed, cause good players use the invincibility to retake control of the match.

This is also why somewhat good players get ***** by the pros, because they tend to lose morale altogether after their first stock in a tournament. Even if you have the same technical and prediction game as your opponent, if you hesitate and question yourself you will lose to someone who has a stronger morale.

 

[A-Laon]

Extremely good analysis and one of the few posts on this forum worth reading.

MookieRah for president.

 

[Chromeless]

For the most part I agree with what everybody has said about player randomnes, guesswork is going to be an inevitable part of the game and I have already covered that in a previous. Likewise, players are not capable of optimal randomness eaither, they will have certain patterns that can be picked up on to an extent. But still my point stands that the clinch is the messiest part of the game, a wrong guess will happen no matter how skilled you are at predicting your opponent and while this is hardly gamebreaking I hold that there are far more interesting and elegent ways of handling it.

Now, in my proposed system the ability to interupt certain moves will be far more limited then others. As Sensai brought up before, a Marth F-smash is a strong and effective technique already, so the ability to interupt it would be best limited to the charge and a few opening frames (and the move would still incur some lag even then). In fact all moves would have to be handled somewhat diffrently in order to balance the game out properly, and like all major changes to a game system it would require the development team to radically rethink how the game is played.

On the other hand I believe it would be worth it for what it could potentialy bring to the game. As long as certain issues were sorted out (the interuptability of anti-aerial techniques should be heavily limited in order for air-to-ground attacks to remain viable) I don't see any fundamentaly gamebreaking problems that couldn't be delt with in some shape or form. The game would change no doubt, but I think such change would be preferable to 'Melee 1.1'. Then again this is simply one of the changes that could occur.

Once again, my point is not that the current system is horrible by any means, but I still hold that the clinch is its weakest point and that it makes sense to change it.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

... I think Melee's biggest flaw was Peach's downsmash.


... and MookieRah's post WAS really good just now.

 

[Chromeless]

... I think Melee's biggest flaw was Peach's downsmash.

Agreed, though Fox shouldn't be able to JC Shine into a WD either...

 

[ThePROMINENCE]

"The problem is that the game devolves into nothing more then a guessing game as players become unable to properly judge what their opponent is going to do next, they could be a threat at any time and because of that you may have to randomly dodge or attack to simply avoid the options your opponent has against you."


So your saying you want a wii attatchment to come with this game that will allow you to read you opponents mind?

 

[Chromeless]

"The problem is that the game devolves into nothing more then a guessing game as players become unable to properly judge what their opponent is going to do next, they could be a threat at any time and because of that you may have to randomly dodge or attack to simply avoid the options your opponent has against you."


So your saying you want a wii attatchment to come with this game that will allow you to read you opponents mind?

No, I'm saying that you should be able make up for a wrong guess when it does happen (which is inevitable) and that the game would improve if it allowed you to do this. To make it clear to everyone, I am not DENYING randomness, predictability, the guessing aspect of mindgames etc. I am simply saying that the clinch lacks the depth that it could have because I believe that with some tweaking it could be significantly improved.

 

[Reno>]

Melee's biggest flaw obviously is that Ganon isn't top tier. Nonsense.

 

[7ak]

Melee's biggest flaws (not in order):

1. IC's chaingrabs and wobbles.
2. Sheik's no lag tilts and chaingrab-KO/gay d-throw combos on almost every character.
3. Peach d-smash.
4. Fox's waveshine combos, shinespike.
5. Falco SHL, shine combos and pillaring.
6. Certain chaingrabs (Marth vs. spacey on FD).
7. Zelda's d-air..........(joke )

Other than that, I think the game is pretty **** well balanced from Fox on down to Ganon/Link or even DK. Also, a lot of what I just mentioned can be countered with good DI, tech skill, spacing and mindgames which makes it even more balanced.

I think although Melee has some irritating unbalanced things, it's a brilliant game where the better player often wins regardless of character. You get someone on a platform or on the ground they can:

1. Get up.
2. Roll.
3. Tech in place or tech left/right.
4. Sit there and do their get-up attack.

On a ledge:

1. Ledge aerial/B move.
2. Regrab ledge.
3. Ledge get-up attack.
4. Ledge roll onto stage.
5. Hang on ledge.
6. Wavedash onto stage.

Get grabbed you can:

1. Wiggle out if possible.
2. DI the throw and hope for the best.
3. Spot-dodge the grab attempt.

Thats pretty much the essence of smash except in-game the calculation is very fast and based on experience and probability. Good players will recognize which action has been taken or will be taken and react accordingly with the best aerial/dodge/B move/shield/grab, etc. possible. Of course they also know how to combo so they choose the best aerial/rhythm of fastfalling and L-cancelling to maximize the damage or combo potential to set up the next hit/KO/edgeguard/whatever. Watch a recent vid of Ken, KDJ, PC, etc. and if you know anything about smash you'll see a genius at work.

 

[Ixninjax]

The thing about playing competitive smash is that very little of the actual battle is "clinch battle". Spacing is a HUGE factor in smash and generally "clinch battles" usually only occur when your forced into it (pressured near edge into shield for ex). Although im sure casual smash is full of "clinch battles" with the dash attacks and smash attacks and whatnot. Smash has no need to change the close range combat, if your playing competitive smash correctly then you shouldn't be putting yourself in vulnerable situations like this.

 

[FrozenRoy]

So your saying you want a wii attatchment to come with this game that will allow you to read you opponents mind?

Well it would certainly help for mindgames.

 

[Eaode]

Chromless, I think you're not getting something. Why should you be able to cover up for a mistake you made. Then everyone could cover for every mistake. People aren't random. These "wrong guesses" will happen to both players. It's all part of mindgames. If you guess what your opponent will do and punish accordingly, you deserve to get that hit in.


And again, when in this "clinch" scenario, you don't always have to guess something. If you do that, then you'd be right, and people would randomly guess wrong. But that's the thing; if you're guessing randomly, then you're bound to make a stupid mistake because what you're doing is stupid in the first place. If you're not good at reading your opponent before he does something, sit back, retreat, wait for him to actually do something, and then you can punish based on what you actually see.



I hope this helps.

 

[THK]

Guessing game? Um yeah. That's what it's supposed to come down to. To players trying to predict and react to each other. All good fighters have this. Also, humans can adapt and realize what will work and what will no longer work.

If I come at you with a dash attack and nail you twice. You'll learn to shield and then react accordingly. I realize that won't work anymore and I can now either. Dash and do nothing, resulting in me running past you (got a friend with this, the look on his face was great XD), dash and jump cancel grab, dash and then wavedash backwards, heck I can go on and on and on. All I know is I'd be pretty ****ed stupid to try to dash attack again.

Mindgames are key. As such, pokes, baiting, intentional whiffs, empty jumps and movements. This isn't a flaw, it's a way of life.

I'm the type of player that likes to do these things. To trick my opponent into a mistake and punish accordingly. This does backfire on me every now and then, but I'm also prepared to switch up a playstyle. It's all strategy dude. Train your mind.