Melee vs? Traditional Fighters

[voorhese]

Due to the possibility of melee being at evo in 2013, I am making a video comparing the fundamentals, advanced techniques (as well as the thought behind them), as well as the thought process in general between traditional fighters and super smash bros melee. I already added a few people to a group to help aid me in making this video. If you would like to help me please let me know.

 

[kd-]

What kind of help are you looking for?

 

[voorhese]

I am mainly looking for ideas to cover (along with any sources you can provide for said topics)

Ideally I want to cover mainly the mindsets and their similarities. Especially with fundamentals and the idea behind advanced techniques.

example: Escaping the corner -> recovering, Kara throw -> jc/boost grabs, Alternating time for dive kicks -> alternating FF timings, Cross ups -> extending aerials by jumping late/not fast falling, tick-throws -> shinegrabs etc.

and then like footsies -> dash dancing.

 

[KrIsP!]

Yomi-reading
footsies-dd wd, etc.
consistent results and match ups<- must be competitive
dynamic DI
Ledge-corner
wombooocomboooo

Edit: gogogogo

 

[oukd]

hmm correct me if im wrong but i believe that in a lot of trad fighters using short hops for faster offensive options is pretty common (like KoF) but that's more of a really basic mechanics thing than anything...dunno if that'll help at all lol

anyways, good luck with this project very ambitious of you

 

[voorhese]

Yeah I think KoF does have different jump heights, along with marvel. Also I hear a lot of anime games have double jumps, which alter their offensive game quite nicely from say street fighter.

And thx, I am hoping it helps out the community a lot =)

 

[Life]

Are we documenting how Melee is similar to traditional fighters, or how it's better than traditional fighters?

 

[KrIsP!]

I think it is why it should be considered a fighting game? I wouldn't want it to say, "hey, we're better. **** you."

 

[voorhese]

The former. This is to assimilate ourselves into the fighting game community.

 

[voorhese]

My 1st skype sessions notes with Cheeseface Immortal (pro ST player)

ST: Cheeseface Immortal
1: spacing/distance between you and your opponent/positioning (taking advantage of disjointed hitboxes and max ranges etc.) footsies/knowing range for continuing combo
2: Holding the space they want (the space that gives them the most advantages) (very matchup specific). Knowing the available options from both players at said space.
3: reacting to impulsive decisions/reacting to changing in positioning. In the space there is poking/counter poking, and due to a high chance of there being a life lead someone HAS to commit in some way to making a move, and from there proper and superior spacing/position will lead to a possible knockdown/tick throw and follow up as a result. Or it may lead to just chip damage, which will further apply the pressure of the clock. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mB2Mw-0Pa1g#t=73s
4: Sometimes combos are even finished in a way that sacrifices maximum damage for holding/gaining an advantageous position.
5: safe jumping -> A deep jump in that if your opponent does an attack without invincibility will hit them, if they do a move with invincibility you will have time to block and punish, and if they block you go into a block string. https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...v=hX4I51HR5O4&feature=player_detailpage#t=10s https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...feature=player_detailpage&v=N1HmwufmEHY#t=69s -> this is similar but this isn’t the safe jump, this leads into a free grab based on T. Hawk knowing his ranges and options for both him and chun.
6: Boxer vs T.Hawk – Boxer changes his seemingly static game plan drastically simply because of how important matchups are. Boxer’s normal game plan utilizes the same ideal range as T.Hawk, but because T.Hawk has an advantage in the matchup in that space Boxer is forced to play a more footsie/zoning game plan. Refer back to the safe jump clip
7: Tick throwing – using block stun to put an opponent in a position in which the will get thrown if they don’t reversal out (the reversal can be baited and punished also though).

It's amazing how a lot of this is EXACTLY how we think when we play melee >_<

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o8yWSmkMMQ this has just come to my attention. Do you guys think I should go into further depth about the similarities and stuff? Comparing tactics we pointed out and not just fundamentals shared by all fighters?

 

[Melomaniacal]

I always find it important to talk about the difference between how combos work, and the influence DI has in Melee.

 

[Bones0]

I think a very core element of fighters that never gets pointed out in Melee is the RPS element of Attack > Grab > Block > Attack. It's really basic, but this element is what a lot complex strategies are built off of in fighting games. I think conveying the idea that Melee's blocking, grabbing, and attacking all have similar strengths and weaknesses as in other fighting games could help people get a better grasp for why Melee players can still threaten and bait and why spacing in general is important in the first place. You can point out spacing in virtually any game, but if you're not familiar with the options then the spacing is meaningless. It'd be like trying to explain what map control is to someone who's never played a team FPS game like Halo before.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

I always find it important to talk about the difference between how combos work, and the influence DI has in Melee.

This.

You should emphasize on the combo system and the freedom of movement. Those are the two things that set Melee apart.
Or you could split the video into similarities and differences.

 

[Lovage]

the closest fighting game to melee is called GUILTY GEAR ACCENT CORE

that's a game where you can build meter by running at your opponent and you lose meter by camping

perfect game imo

 

[Pengie]

the closest fighting game to melee is called GUILTY GEAR ACCENT CORE

that's a game where you can build meter by running at your opponent and you lose meter by camping

perfect game imo

http://www.twitch.tv/teamsp00ky?utm_campaign=live_embed_click&utm_source=shoryuken.com

For people that haven't seen GG before.

 

[kd-]

Meaty: This means to attack the opponent as they are standing up in such a way that only the latest(last) active frames of the move strike the opponent. This is typically used to 'stuff' attacks on wake up or recovery, as shown by this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcGET_lc3bY You see Yang knocks down or forces Ryu to recover, and on wakeup many of Ryu's wakeup options - shoryuken(dp), backdash, neutral jump - are covered.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6wDWLf99SE&t=5m30s Chun Li's 'knee' attack after the second throw is a meaty that 'stuffed' whatever wakeup attack/movement Yun tried.
While the 'option covering' aspect isn't really in melee, Doc's meaty nair has more knockback, Ganon's reverse meaty upair can be used for edgeguarding, and many characters' meaty sex kicks/aerials can be used to extend combos. Meaty Sheik nair: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g-x6G16qk0&t=2m32s

Overhead - An attack performed on the ground(some animations make it look like the character is jumping) that must be blocked high. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnEWSO6NrQo&t=38s Chun Li blocks low, gets hit. Also note that a few seconds later, at 0:42 Chun Li walks into Ken's meaty overhead, no followup though. In most 2D fighters there is only a high and low block. I think a Melee similarity to this is shield stabs/pokes and tricks you can do with shields. Shield stab: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPCBaAO45aY&t=59s
You can tilt your shield in all directions, allowing you to cover hurtboxes that could be shield stabbed or to change landing DI of an aerial attack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbPmKTVKv-w&t=25s Fox tilts his shield up against an airborne Falco, who performs an....

Empty Jump - Yep this mixup appears in SF as well. What's kinda cool in traditional fighting games is that you can hold block while you're jumping so when you land you're in block, and in SF you can create Option Selects for yourself as well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8fecsriCeY
Worth noting, in Melee an empty hop to grab is called the tomahawk

 

[ph00tbag]

Escaping the corner -> recovering

I would actually argue that there's no satisfying analogue to recovering in other fighters. Recovering is a situation of extreme discrepancy in advantage with limited universal options for resetting to neutral. It actually necessitates a whole class of attacks that each character now needs at least one of in order to escape. There's not really any situation like that in any other fighter.

I'd rather suggest that the corner be equated to being on the ledge. In both situations, there are some character-specific options for escaping the situation, but the majority of one's options are universal. In TFGs, you have blocking, jumping, and grab breaking, as well as some game-specific options like rolling in KoF or IADing in airdash fighters. In smash you have rolls, get-ups, get-up attacks, get-up jumps, or ledge-hops and their derivatives.

Cross ups -> extending aerials by jumping late/not fast falling

There are actually cross-ups in smash, although they serve a different purpose in baiting out responses to landing on the side the attacker didn't land on (eg. landing behind an opponent in order to bait a shield grab).

tick-throws -> shinegrabs etc.

This is a good one, although shinegrabs are only part of the power of tick throws in smash. Jab resetting into grab is actually very common at several levels of play, and it's lent potency by most jabs having natural combo properties, that usually lead to frame traps.

 

[voorhese]

Yeah, I agree with all of this. The thing u said about cross ups is where I was going with, but the extended aerials also cover dash way.

 

[Massive]

You should probably have a section about grounded state mechanics ("wake up" strategies).

There are numerous similarities between traditional fighters and melee as far as wake up tactics and responses are concerned. It's also a good segue into techchasing, jab resets, and dashdancing, since those concepts may be a little more foreign to the traditional fighting game crowd.

 

[Bones0]

Oh yeah, wakeup stuff would be cool. That's probably one of the concepts I can see most easily when I watch random FG vids. Even with minimal understanding of what's going, when you can feel the Yomi bleeding through your monitor when minds get read. :D

 

[KinetiK]

the closest fighting game to melee is called GUILTY GEAR ACCENT CORE

that's a game where you can build meter by running at your opponent and you lose meter by camping

perfect game imo

They're also similar in that there's a huge variety of options on both offense and defense, and lots of room for creativity with combos.

 

[Snakeyes]

This.

You should emphasize on the combo system and the freedom of movement. Those are the two things that set Melee apart.

Yep. You can showcase a few similarities but the overall message of your video should be less "why we're like you" and more "why you should play this." It's entirely possible to dissect Smash into a bunch of traditional fighting game concepts, but doing so waters down the main appeal of the game: how it all comes together in a single free-flowing and exciting package.