Melee is an "Accident"? I disagree - another post from Smash From The Shadows

[kingPiano]

lol this is such a terrible example. CPUs don't use more than 1 recovery move. They grab when you start jump squat. They powershield everything. They don't L-cancel. I don't think they ever even run (only dash grabs and dash attack off of the initial dash). They also don't tech. WTH is this example?

CPUs do tech and they do dash.

So again answer the question that I've asked 2 times now and you've all ignored: Why did they remove Wave-dashing if it was intended?

 

[gmBottles]

CPUs do tech and they do dash.

So again answer the question that I've asked 2 times now and you've all ignored: Why did they remove Wave-dashing if it was intended?

It wasn't intended. It was known that air dodging into the ground made you slide, but they didn't think it mattered. It wasn't intentionally put in, but it was known. They removed it after seeing how it affected the game competitively, as they wanted to keep it a simple party game.

 

[kingPiano]

HAL is not in-house. They are associated with Nintendo in the sense that Nintendo holds the rights to various IPs that HAL has traditionally developed, but they are an independent company.

The Super Mario Club debugs all the Nintendo games, but the directors are the ones responsible for handling QA effectively. Nintendo has no motivation to make games balanced. They are more concerned about it not having serious bugs like debug menu access. This is apparent in the varying quality of various Nintendo-published games. For example, the R&D games have comparatively few and minor bugs while Game Freak's games are notorious for serious bugs.

I'm just trying to guage how much you actually know about professional game development, which is a reflection of your ability to posit whether or not Melee was developed with competitive gaming in mind.

Oh man this is becoming a joke. trololol.
This is about Melee being an accident, a lot of it was. Accept it. It's not about game development or knowing exactly who programmed it.
Wavedashing has since been removed and the lead developer has since spoken about how it was a mistake and regrets that Melee is a competitive game. Nintendo tried multiple times to have it removed from e-sports, "It's a party game" in their own words.

 

[Modesty]

Here's another reason why Wave-dashing wasn't intended......the CPUs don't use it and can't use it. The commands or input combinations aren't even possible in their AI structures. I win.

I don't think this is true. I'm pretty sure at least level 9 samus can do it. I highly doubt it's intentional though.

 

[kingPiano]

It wasn't intended. It was known that air dodging into the ground made you slide, but they didn't think it mattered. It wasn't intentionally put in, but it was known. They removed it after seeing how it affected the game competitively, as they wanted to keep it a simple party game.

I don't think this is true. I'm pretty sure at least level 9 samus can do it. I highly doubt it's intentional though.

Yes so by definition it was a mistake an accident.

Look like I said initially it really doesn't matter to me either way, i got a bit caught up in expressing my opinion.

What really matters is that Nintendo themselves thinks it was a mistake, an accident. Otherwise there would be wave-dashing in all the sequels. You can think all you want that it was on purpose and that from the very beginning this was all planned. That Nintendo would make a really competitive game and then contradict themselves by trying to ban the same exact game from competitive play.....lol

 

[gmBottles]

Yes so by definition it was a mistake.

Look like I said initially it really doesn't matter to me either way, i got a bit caught up in expressing my opinion.

What really matters is that Nintendo themselves thinks it was a mistake, an accident. Otherwise there would be wave-dashing in all the sequels. You can think all you want that it was on purpose and that from the very beginning this was all planned. That Nintendo would make a really competitive game and then contradict themselves by trying to ban the same exact game from competitive play.....lol

I don't think that at all though. If it was planned from the beginning they would have included it in 64.

 

[anikom15]

Oh man this is becoming a joke. trololol.
This is about Melee being an accident, a lot of it was. Accept it. It's not about game development or knowing exactly who programmed it.
Wavedashing has since been removed and the lead developer has since spoken about how it was a mistake and regrets that Melee is a competitive game. Nintendo tried multiple times to have it removed from e-sports, "It's a party game" in their own words.

Two things: (1) Melee is not just wavedashing. Tournaments existed before wavedashing was utilized. There is advanced tech that was added, like different shield types, new L-canceling, situational dodges (with punishment for using them improperly, in contrast to the new games). These were all added for deeper gameplay. (2) You can't look at the game retroactively. 2001 Nintendo was very different from 2008 Nintendo. 2001 Sakurai was different from 2008 Sakurai. Did you play Melee when it first came out? You assume Sakurai always wanted Smash to be just a party game which could be true, but is impossible to prove. Evidence tells us that the development teams of 64, Melee, and Smash 4 had competition in mind, while the Brawl team did not.

 

[SAUS]

CPUs do tech and they do dash.

So again answer the question that I've asked 2 times now and you've all ignored: Why did they remove Wave-dashing if it was intended?

Why did they remove Roy if he was intended? Games change. Maybe they didn't care that wavedashing was in the game when they released it since they didn't know what it would do to the game. I have no proof for any reason as to why they took it out, but there could be a lot of reasons. The general idea I get is that they wanted the game to be a lot more obvious for newer players. It is fair to say that people don't know what's happening when they watch melee when they haven't really played melee. Overall, its removal alone doesn't prove or disprove anything.

 

[kingPiano]

Two things: (1) Melee is not just wavedashing. Tournaments existed before wavedashing was utilized. There is advanced tech that was added, like different shield types, new L-canceling, situational dodges (with punishment for using them improperly, in contrast to the new games). These were all added for deeper gameplay. (2) You can't look at the game retroactively. 2001 Nintendo was very different from 2008 Nintendo. 2001 Sakurai was different from 2008 Sakurai. Did you play Melee when it first came out? You assume Sakurai always wanted Smash to be just a party game which could be true, but is impossible to prove. Evidence tells us that the development teams of 64, Melee, and Smash 4 had competition in mind, while the Brawl team did not.

So biased...go read up on Sakurai interviews, it's not impossible to prove. He says it.

I would go on and on but it's not worth the time, seriously. Propaganda and misinformation.
I respectfully bow out, way too much brainwashing here. It's pointless.

 

[anikom15]

So biased...go read up on Sakurai interviews, it's not impossible to prove. He says it.

I would go on and on but it's not worth the time, seriously. Propaganda and misinformation.
I respectfully bow out, way too much brainwashing here. It's pointless.

Those interviews came out after-the-fact. Sorry, that's not evidence.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just look at the games Sakurai makes...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiro_Sakurai
Kirby, Smash, Kirby, Meteos, Kirby, and Kid Icarus. Did I mention Kirby? Whenever he talks about his games it's about how easy they are to get into. Melee isn't easy to get into. Every single interview he's talked about the original idea for Smash was that since Fighters then were too hardcore at the time, stifling sales, he made SSB as the exact opposite, being incredibly easy to get into and master. Just think about it for a moment: A gaming staring twelve of Nintendo's best was made under the assumption that it wouldn't sell simply because it's a fighting game.

Yep, L-canceling is intentional. It's so SSB's hilariously inept CPUs can cheat, and was mapped to the guard button either for simplicity (because programming a "secret button" of sorts might be difficult when your budget consists of a shoestring and some used tape) or just as an easter egg like most secret moves are. We're lucky it wasn't mapped to the taunt button or something stupid.

The only reason Wavedashing and the like were left in later versions was because they weren't incredibly well-known, the people fixing the game were just NoA and NoE who had basically no imput from HAL, and then if they were fixed, how would the game work afterward? Would you just crash-land if you airdodged into the ground or something? NoA/E probably didn't want to make sweeping mechanical changes to squash a bug or two.

The guy makes Kirby Super Star, then SSB64, then Melee, then Kirby Air Ride. Like, how isn't everything about competitive Melee an accident?

Why did they remove Roy if he was intended? Games change. Maybe they didn't care that wavedashing was in the game when they released it since they didn't know what it would do to the game. I have no proof for any reason as to why they took it out, but there could be a lot of reasons. The general idea I get is that they wanted the game to be a lot more obvious for newer players. It is fair to say that people don't know what's happening when they watch melee when they haven't really played melee. Overall, its removal alone doesn't prove or disprove anything.

Roy has data in the files... Wavedashing does not. Even after he makes a new Smash with competition in mind he doesn't bring back a thing cut from Melee. He's said it was simply left in... You don't just "leave in" something you like, something that was completely intentional. Don't you think he would of said "I made Wavedashing to specifically be used how it is today" if it were true?

 

[anikom15]

What about all the shield variations, air dodging, DI, and the trophy descriptions? Was all that an accident, too?

It's like you didn't read the article. Wavedashing wasn't even discussed and is only a small part of why Melee is competitive.

 

[LancerStaff]

What about all the shield variations, air dodging, DI, and the trophy descriptions? Was all that an accident, too?

It's like you didn't read the article. Wavedashing wasn't even discussed and is only a small part of why Melee is competitive.

This is in response to what's been posted and not the article. My computer won't even load it, actually. Just look at what Sakurai has made... Kirby, SSB64, Melee, Kirby. Melee doesn't stick out like a sore thumb to you? It doesn't stick out in comparison to every other game Sakurai has ever made? Hell, it sticks out within Smash.

I understand that just because something is cut, doesn't mean it wasn't intended. What you don't understand is that just because it's there doesn't mean it was intended. Light Shielding had to be cut so GC doesn't have an immediate advantage, airdodging was explicitly changed so you could, yaknow, dodge with it, and trophy description are put into the game fully knowing how they work. You don't just magically wind up with trophy descriptions. Sakurai could take credit for every little thing about competitive Melee... But he doesn't. You know why? Because it was an accident. He won't even take credit for Wavedashing. It was left in. What, did he just "leave in" trophies? How is that even possible?

 

[anikom15]

This is in response to what's been posted and not the article. My computer won't even load it, actually. Just look at what Sakurai has made... Kirby, SSB64, Melee, Kirby. Melee doesn't stick out like a sore thumb to you? It doesn't stick out in comparison to every other game Sakurai has ever made? Hell, it sticks out within Smash.

I understand that just because something is cut, doesn't mean it wasn't intended. What you don't understand is that just because it's there doesn't mean it was intended. Light Shielding had to be cut so GC doesn't have an immediate advantage, airdodging was explicitly changed so you could, yaknow, dodge with it, and trophy description are put into the game fully knowing how they work. You don't just magically wind up with trophy descriptions. Sakurai could take credit for every little thing about competitive Melee... But he doesn't. You know why? Because it was an accident. He won't even take credit for Wavedashing. It was left in. What, did he just "leave in" trophies? How is that even possible?

Read the article to understand what's said about trophy descriptions.

Are you telling me that DI, light shields, and air dodging were all accidents?

Melee doesn't stick out to me. 64 is competitive, too. Kirby's Dream Course is surprisingly deep. Mother is one of the hardest JRPGs I've ever played. SimCity isn't a kids' game. These games didn't involve Sakurai, but they did involve HAL which knew how to make good games. Sakurai was not actively trying to keep Smash from being competitive in 2001, and the trophy descriptions clearly indicate that the devs had 1v1 in mind.

The argument boils down to 'Tech X was an accident, therefore the whole competitive nature of the game was an accident' which is fallacious to begin with.

 

[SAUS]

Roy has data in the files... Wavedashing does not. Even after he makes a new Smash with competition in mind he doesn't bring back a thing cut from Melee. He's said it was simply left in... You don't just "leave in" something you like, something that was completely intentional. Don't you think he would of said "I made Wavedashing to specifically be used how it is today" if it were true?

It is most likely that wavedashing overall was an accident. A combination of solving some problem with a solution that adds other things indirectly and then not giving a crap if it stays in or not (could be that they liked it at they time, could be lack of time, could be a bunch of things). I think it is most likely something like they didn't expect it to do much to the game and there were definitely time constraints for releasing the game.

Just because you don't like something that is in the game that you created doesn't mean that you didn't intend for it to be there. Likewise, people using it more or differently from how you expected it to be used doesn't mean that you didn't intend for it to be there in the first place.

My stance on this whole thing is that there are things that seem to have been deliberate, and there are things that seem to have been accidents. I think at some level, melee has to be considered an accident.

Roy has data in the files... Wavedashing does not. Even after he makes a new Smash with competition in mind he doesn't bring back a thing cut from Melee.

That was my point of using Roy. It was just some arbitrary thing that was not kept in the game. There are still other potential reasons for not including wavedashing that allow it to not be an accident in melee, perhaps for making it appeal to brawl playes. I still have no proof either way, but I haven't seen anything conclusive for either side.

Just because he says he wants the game to have competition in mind doesn't mean he will achieve his goals. Maybe wavedashing was all he needed (not implying that that's the case, just using it as an example) and he didn't put it in because he wanted to appeal to newer players and brawl players. Who knows?

 

[LancerStaff]

Read the article to understand what's said about trophy descriptions.

Are you telling me that DI, light shields, and air dodging were all accidents?

Melee doesn't stick out to me. 64 is competitive, too. Kirby's Dream Course is surprisingly deep. Mother is one of the hardest JRPGs I've ever played. SimCity isn't a kids' game. These games didn't involve Sakurai, but they did involve HAL which knew how to make good games. Sakurai was not actively trying to keep Smash from being competitive in 2001, and the trophy descriptions clearly indicate that the devs had 1v1 in mind.

The argument boils down to 'Tech X was an accident, therefore the whole competitive nature of the game was an accident' which is fallacious to begin with.

You aren't listening. Light shields, DI, and trophies can't just be left in. It's impossible. Whereas little slide-y reactions can.

All Smash games are competitive. It's only Melee that has what's essentially a replacement for walking, it's only Melee that has one character type in it's top quarter, and it's only Melee that has so much universal tech.

It ain't HAL that made Melee's depth. Kirby Fighters both resembles Brawl and isn't technical at all. HAL hasn't made a single thing that remotely resembles Melee's depth since. And of course, you can't prove HAL had any significant imput on Melee. Sakurai keeps on talking like he made the games by himself... And nobody is saying otherwise. If HAL really had any imput, people would of interviewed them as a whole instead of just Sakurai.

Difficulty =/= depth, and Melee's trophy descriptions stated Bowser was the best character. Yeah, no, they put effort into 1v1 play, but they clearly had no idea what they were doing. 64, Brawl, and 4 all clearly had 1v1 testing too. The classic modes and Event Matches all had 1v1 fights. Smash 4 has a whole mode for 1v1 play.

Sakurai has said Melee was too hard... It was accidentally too hard. It's much harder then any other Smash, or any other game he's made as far as learning curves go.

It is most likely that wavedashing overall was an accident. A combination of solving some problem with a solution that adds other things indirectly and then not giving a crap if it stays in or not (could be that they liked it at they time, could be lack of time, could be a bunch of things). I think it is most likely something like they didn't expect it to do much to the game and there were definitely time constraints for releasing the game.

Just because you don't like something that is in the game that you created doesn't mean that you didn't intend for it to be there. Likewise, people using it more or differently from how you expected it to be used doesn't mean that you didn't intend for it to be there in the first place.

My stance on this whole thing is that there are things that seem to have been deliberate, and there are things that seem to have been accidents. I think at some level, melee has to be considered an accident.


That was my point of using Roy. It was just some arbitrary thing that was not kept in the game. There are still other potential reasons for not including wavedashing that allow it to not be an accident in melee, perhaps for making it appeal to brawl playes. I still have no proof either way, but I haven't seen anything conclusive for either side.

Just because he says he wants the game to have competition in mind doesn't mean he will achieve his goals. Maybe wavedashing was all he needed (not implying that that's the case, just using it as an example) and he didn't put it in because he wanted to appeal to newer players and brawl players. Who knows?

I never said you couldn't dislike something you intentionally put in. And there's a difference between an unintended reaction and an unintended use, yes, but they're both unintentional all the same.

Again, Sakurai would of just said it was intentional if it was. He hasn't. Can you give me a good reason why he hasn't said so? I don't think you can... So, if he's dancing around the question, who is he trying not to insult? Melee fans, obviously.

 

[SAUS]

I never said you couldn't dislike something you intentionally put in. And there's a difference between an unintended reaction and an unintended use, yes, but they're both unintentional all the same.

Again, Sakurai would of just said it was intentional if it was. He hasn't. Can you give me a good reason why he hasn't said so? I don't think you can... So, if he's dancing around the question, who is he trying not to insult? Melee fans, obviously.

What you say may be true, but again, it is basically what you think is the case. There is no evidence for either side. Wavedashes uses being unintended does not mean wavedashing was unintended. I already stated that it is more likely that it was some sort of accident that just got left in since its affect on the game was almost certainly not known at the time.

I couldn't care less what Sakurai says or doesn't say to avoid hurting melee fans' feelings. He's basically abandoned melee players. If anything, I think he just doesn't want to blatantly say he hates melee because it would probably hurt smash 4 sales or Nintendo's image.

 

[LancerStaff]

What you say may be true, but again, it is basically what you think is the case. There is no evidence for either side. Wavedashes uses being unintended does not mean wavedashing was unintended. I already stated that it is more likely that it was some sort of accident that just got left in since its affect on the game was almost certainly not known at the time.

I couldn't care less what Sakurai says or doesn't say to avoid hurting melee fans' feelings. He's basically abandoned melee players. If anything, I think he just doesn't want to blatantly say he hates melee because it would probably hurt smash 4 sales or Nintendo's image.

Sakurai isn't this soulless money-grubber you make him out to be. He hasn't said anything on the matter because he legitimately doesn't want to hurt anybody's feelings. He doesn't hate Melee players or how they play the game, but a Smash game like Melee wouldn't work nowadays because of online and such. He's simply keeping Smash the way it was originally supposed to be played, which is also the most common way to play.

People can say it's restrictive and boring limiting how you play and blah blah blah... But, quite often in reality, glitches promote degenerate play. Metroid Prime Hunters was plagued with numerous OoB glitches and an improperly programmed move that made Noxus the MK of that game. Snaking in Mario Kart is widely considered to destroy your thumbs long before the "depth" can be appreciated, which is just making the speed stat useless and nerfing the overall effect of items. Acid rain in Pokemon causes soft lock trolls to exist. X-ray climbing in Super Metroid cuts about 2/3s of the game out for a painfully slow and difficult trick that's absolutely boring to watch. Super Mario World's orb glitch makes speedruns come down to grinding for said orbs for your inventory and skipping levels with them. Hell, Melee has Wobbling and Soul Breaker and the Dthrow box thingy I don't remember the name for...

 

[Frostav]

Read the article to understand what's said about trophy descriptions.

Are you telling me that DI, light shields, and air dodging were all accidents?

DI is literally just "hold X direction to influence your launch" and makes perfect sense for a knockback-based fighter like Smash. Also, other fighting games have similar mechanics such as Soul Calibur.

Light shields were probably just added in to show off the analog capabilities of the Gamecube's triggers and besides, "press lightly = bigger but weaker shield" is pretty intuitive anyway.

Air dodging is another intuitive mechanic and the fact that it led to wavedashing doesn't really mean anything. The game had to do something when you air-dodged into the ground. The devs chose to make you slide while being counted as standing. I highly doubt they intended this to be abused.

. Sakurai was not actively trying to keep Smash from being competitive in 2001, and the trophy descriptions clearly indicate that the devs had 1v1 in mind.

lolwat no they didn't. Otherwise the game wouldn't have been so ridiculously imbalanced. They gave Fox and Falco a one-frame reversal move which is a deadly spike for the first and a combo starter for the second. It is, theoretically, impossible for to frame-trap any of the spacies for if they have but one frame where they can act they can throw out a shine. Most of the characters' movesets are badly-designed and don't work well with each other.

Melee is a great game with a lot of history, and I love watching it and even playing it, but come on man. It's a kusoge to the max. It just happened to be an incredibly deep and competitive kusoge.

 

[anikom15]

You need to read the article man.

The trophies never said Bowser was the best. The trophies did give hints on how to be good with certain characters however, and most of these tips apply to the current metagame. That was the whole point of the article: the developers had foresight to how the game could be played, and they crafted the characters and techniques accordingly.

And the idea that the developers of the game had no input on the game is ridiculous. Do you seriously think Sakurai designed every aspect of the game himself, from special moves to items to L-canceling timings?

P.S. Fox's trophy explicitly says he sucks at FFA. He was made for 1v1s.

 

[Kadano]

I’m not gonna reply to the thread as a whole since I believe the article explains everything perfectly well to begin with. It’s just this statement that’s really bothering me:

Melee's trophy descriptions stated Bowser was the best character. Yeah, no, they put effort into 1v1 play, but they clearly had no idea what they were doing.

Bowser (Smash Red)
In many ways, Bowser is the toughest character around. Not only does he have near-impervious hide, but his great mass makes him almost impossible to hurl offscreen. Of course, his weight also makes him rather slow to maneuver, so when facing him in battle, it's best to press your attack and not give him a chance to counter.

“Toughest” ≠ “Best”
Bowser has the highest weight and some of his attacks have very high damage output. Calling him tough is appropriate, but wrongly citing his trophy description to make it serve your argument is really not impressive.

 

[Capricorn Genesis]

C'mon now every single one of your replies was incorrect and bordeline spell-check next time brainwashed. Stop talking to yourself. It's embarrassing.

Balance isn't for competitive or "high level play" only, that is a very dumb statement. Let's say a casual friend and I wanna play: I pick Kirby cause he's my favorite character and my friend picks Marth cause he's cool and loves fire emblem. And then I proceed to get fu**ing rekt 100 games out of 100. Yay fun, thanks Sakurai. Of course there needs to be SOME balance (which we have in the franchise outside of a few bad apples), but most casuals cannot properly utilize some characters because they do not care enough to explore. Also, hyperbole doesn't help your points.

An exploit is a glitch except it isn't. Exploits come from manipulating the game's intended functions, while a glitch is a software failure. Look it up., just like a square is a rectangle. Only difference is a glitch becomes an exploit when it can be used to make a game easier or deeper. Basically taking a flaw and utilizing it to your advantage. The funny thing is that the word glitch in it's native tongue literally means "to slide, or to skid" lol

And yes they would put wave-dashing in the manual no they wouldn't, because wave-dashing was something discovered by players and named by them, and even if not they would put it in the intro "how to play" mechanics video. Nintendo doesn't make deep twitch dependent mechanics in their games on purpose. They are all about simplicity and blue shells, these days they hate competition and they especially hate allowing skilled players to win their games everytime (Mario Kart anyone? Tripping anyone? Mario party anyone?) not wrong here, but anyone can see that because they're so blunt with their babying. They favor their multiplayer games to heavily rely on some luck factor so that the most skilled people don't completely destroy new people, who then in turn might not like the game cause they never win. If they never win, they might not ever buy the game cause it's no fun for them and then Nintendo doesn't get their sweet sweet money.

It's not worth arguing with you anymore since you're too stubborn and bitter to be reasoned with.

 

[LancerStaff]

I’m not gonna reply to the thread as a whole since I believe the article explains everything perfectly well to begin with. It’s just this statement that’s really bothering me:

Bowser (Smash Red)
In many ways, Bowser is the toughest character around. Not only does he have near-impervious hide, but his great mass makes him almost impossible to hurl offscreen. Of course, his weight also makes him rather slow to maneuver, so when facing him in battle, it's best to press your attack and not give him a chance to counter.

“Toughest” ≠ “Best”
Bowser has the highest weight and some of his attacks have very high damage output. Calling him tough is appropriate, but wrongly citing his trophy description to make it serve your argument is really not impressive.

I'll admit I'm wrong. Last read the thing like twelve years ago... Actually, I just looked up a list of trophy descriptions.

You need to read the article man.

The trophies never said Bowser was the best. The trophies did give hints on how to be good with certain characters however, and most of these tips apply to the current metagame. That was the whole point of the article: the developers had foresight to how the game could be played, and they crafted the characters and techniques accordingly.

And the idea that the developers of the game had no input on the game is ridiculous. Do you seriously think Sakurai designed every aspect of the game himself, from special moves to items to L-canceling timings?

P.S. Fox's trophy explicitly says he sucks at FFA. He was made for 1v1s.

Most of these are rather generic and unreliable. Even more of them are just quick explanations of how moves work.

"To master Link, you must control the pace by balancing your long-range attacks with head-to-head swordplay." No **** Sherlock.

"Yoshi can also swallow a foe and transform him or her into an egg: try doing this close to an edge!" Sure, at like 200% against a character with poor air speed. Anything less gets you about as far as a grab would.

"[Kirby's] Swallow attack creates wild combos; not only can he copy foes' moves, but he'll also put on special hats and mimic their voices." Combos? Unless you mean hitting Kirby after the swallow animation...

"[Fox] is better at one-on-one fights than melees with multiple foes." Not really. He's one of the better FFA characters just because of his speed, items or not.
"His Fox illusion is best used as a surprise attack." ...People attempt to use it as anything but a recovery move?

"[Captain Falcon's] Knee Smash, used in midair on foes in front of you, is slow and has a short reach..." Not particularly slow in any sense. Especially with L-canceling.

And the most damning of all: "Dr. Mario is a tad slower due to his lack of exercise..." Lies. Completely untrue. Not a single trophy points to them knowing anything more the the most rudimentary basics. If they really did, then why the hell is the game so horribly balanced?

No, of course Sakurai didn't make the thing by himself. I don't think HAL had significant imput on the game. Whoever made Melee all competitive clearly didn't care enough to influence any other HAL game, assuming this person exists.

 

[dude it's raining]

why the hell is the game so horribly balanced?

Answer: Just as the game is really hard to master, it must have been even harder to make.

Also, the author's audience is clearly targeted towards misinformed casual players (cues being his hints at his own casual passion for the game). Anything more than a "generic and unreliable" description would come close to the limits of a casual player's knowledge of the game. And even your bringing that up is missing the point of the article, which is not whether or not the game designers were psychic and could see the future of the metagame, but that they made a game that is great when played in single player, FFA, or 1 vs 1. Those trophy descriptions were included not for their content but for their context.

But just to have fun with the points you made, here ya go:
Link's description is rather fundamental, so why is that a problem?
I'm not super impressed with your rebuttal of Yoshi's trophy. No mention of mashing and falling speed? And what about how fun it is to watch Amsah do it against foxes?
Kirby's "wild combos": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xbYK1Q5Z2Q
An argument could be made that fox's light weight could be a disadvantage in FFA's, but also keep in mind that the trophies were addressing a diverse audience of casuals and 1-vs-1'ers, and ppl do get Sakurai combos in tournament from time to time (or variations of them involving sideB, like Leffen vs Chillin $match).
Falcon's knee is slow in one sense: its startup lag is twice as long as any of the top five chars.
But all of this is irrelevant, and it was just fun for me to pick apart the little things that you said coz it's all out of context in this thread lol.

 

[dude it's raining]

DI is literally just "hold X direction to influence your launch" and makes perfect sense for a knockback-based fighter like Smash. Also, other fighting games have similar mechanics such as Soul Calibur.

Not so simple tho, coz of the whole perpindicular thing. Which is probly why they experimented with vectoring in smash4 to try to make it more intuitive.

Light shields were probably just added in to show off the analog capabilities of the Gamecube's triggers and besides, "press lightly = bigger but weaker shield" is pretty intuitive anyway.

I dunno about you, but the article addressed that issue pretty well for me.

lolwat no they didn't. Otherwise the game wouldn't have been so ridiculously imbalanced. They gave Fox and Falco a one-frame reversal move which is a deadly spike for the first and a combo starter for the second. It is, theoretically, impossible for to frame-trap any of the spacies for if they have but one frame where they can act they can throw out a shine. Most of the characters' movesets are badly-designed and don't work well with each other.

For one, if the game were exclusively for 1vs1, they would try to make it balanced, and if they wanted it to be horrible when played 1vs1, then most chars would be like the low/mid tiers. The article's point is that the game is not balanced on purpose in order for the game to be really good no matter how you play it.
But for another one, you don't seem to have thought out your shine argument very well. There is a thing called chain grabbing, which can't be shined out of as long as the marth is pivoting correctly. And it is also possible to out-space a shine, so throwing one out whenever you can is not an everything-solution. But this point is irrelevant b/c it doesn't matter that not every character is a good as spacies, b/c the game wasn't designed to be exclusively 1vs1.

 

[LancerStaff]

Answer: Just as the game is really hard to master, it must have been even harder to make.

Also, the author's audience is clearly targeted towards misinformed casual players (cues being his hints at his own casual passion for the game). Anything more than a "generic and unreliable" description would come close to the limits of a casual player's knowledge of the game. And even your bringing that up is missing the point of the article, which is not whether or not the game designers were psychic and could see the future of the metagame, but that they made a game that is great when played in single player, FFA, or 1 vs 1. Those trophy descriptions were included not for their content but for their context.

I don't think you understand. I was arguing that these do not prove the dev team had any idea about how competitive play worked. You're arguing the same thing as me...

Yes, Melee works with 1p, FFA, and 1v1. Like all Smash games. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand: If (assumably competitive) Melee was an accident or not. I see nothing that says it turned out remotely like they thought it would.

 

[dude it's raining]

I don't think you understand. I was arguing that these do not prove the dev team had any idea about how competitive play worked. You're arguing the same thing as me...

Yes, Melee works with 1p, FFA, and 1v1. Like all Smash games. This has nothing to do with the topic at hand: If (assumably competitive) Melee was an accident or not. I see nothing that says it turned out remotely like they thought it would.

Ahh, that makes me look like quite the jerk, sorry bou dat