Medusa's Minons -New Pit Matchup Thread

[MysteriousSilver]

Proceed with Caution, brave warrior! The many winged snakes and flying eyeballs that you have vanquished until now were nothing like these foes that approach us now! Masters of the sword, mechanical men and creatures of fire and thunder all block the path to your victory. But fear not! I shall give you the wisdom you need to defeat these opponents...

Right, so we needed a new matchup thread, and here it is. I don't know whether to do things in order of the tier list or how bad the fight is for us, but either way, I think we should start with MK. Everyone's familiar with him, he's one of our worst, and he's #1 on the list. He's the most common character to see and the one who'll probably be knocking you out of brackets the most. Allright no one wants to do that.

Spoiler

The green text and picure is just because I think our board could use a little more 'flavor.'

Questions to keep in mind when discussing matchups:

--How well can we camp them?

--Do they outrange/out prioritize us?

--Can we gimp them? Can they gimp us?

--How bad/good is the matchup?

--What options do we have to turn the battle in our favor? How can we deal with specific problematic strategies?

Discuss!

Metaknight

Snake

Wario

Thread is here.

Falco

Thread is here.

Diddy Kong

King Dedede

Marth

Mr. Game & Watch

Thread is here.

Pikachu

Olimar

Ice Climbers

R.O.B.

Kirby

Lucario

Zero Suit Samus

Toon Link

Pit

Donkey Kong

Peach

Luigi

Fox

Wolf

Sonic

Sheik

Bowser

Zelda

Pokémon Trainer

Ike

Thread is here.

Lucas

Mario

Ness

Yoshi

Samus

Jigglypuff

Captain Falcon

Link

Ganondorf

 

[MysteriousSilver]

MK is bad for Pit, but not undoable. He has no way to outcamp us for one, and like most characters he has not solid answer to our Uair if we get him above us. He does outrange us by a fair bit, and outspeed us as well. He beats us offstage hard. This is the one character I'm afraid of getting gimped by, as pretty much his entire arsenal of aerial attacks will eat our face off. I'd fire arrows rather than chase him off, but that's just me. He's probably one of the only characters with a better recovery than you.

Close range, being above us in the air is the only place he doesn't have the advantage. On the ground his tilts and shorthopped aerials (GRAB HIM IF HE AIN'T SPACIN' RIGHT. But you knew that.) require us to play the defensive and wait for those tiny moments of vulnerability in between he retardedly fast attacks. Jabs are great if you get in close, definitely good for punishing in those short moments.

He can be gimped, but it's tricky. Shuttle loop happens fast, you have to predict it if you want to mirror shield him. Whorenado and Drill Rush can be turned around as well, and are a little easier to see coming. In fact, mirror shield is your only real answer to the 'nado short of just shielding the whole thing and hoping you don't get poked. If you shield it near the edge, you might even make him SD. MS does take a bit to get out though, so if you're not sure, just hit R or L and wait for your chance (Thread in tactical insists you can grab MK right out of it when you're shielding, but I haven't gotten a chance to try it myself).

He's light, but his momentum cancel is crazy good. He should still die sooner than you, but don't count on it to save you. I'd kill with Fsmash, Ftilt or Dsmash, Bair will probably get beaten by random MK aerial #32.

After you stop being able to punish him out of Dthrow and Fthrow, start throwing him up. It does the most damage and forces him to come down into either an Uair or an airdodge read.

Chainthrow doesn't work, Fthrow to stutter-step Fsmash works from 0-5%. Fthrow -> dash attack I haven't tested yet, but that's dangerous anyways.

I'd say 40:60 MK's favor, maybe like 38.5:62.5.

 

[Nitrix]

Does MK really not have an answer to our U-Air? His D-Air seems really good and I doubt a solid MK would actually have any trouble with it if he spaces properly.

For MK be careful with your arrows, he is so fast that you really have to watch when you spam and be ready for him to approach like nobody's business.

Mirror Shield is a godsend against a MK that shuttle loops poorly.

I think Pit is able to keep up with MK when it comes to boxing. Maybe he can use that to help him in this matchup?

This matchup makes me feel like Pit is slow

Here are vids of Rogue Pit vs Plank

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBfvcncMTIM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4kP_hUtr7E&feature=related

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I dunno, maybe he can hit us out of it, but it's never happened to me before.

Thanks for providing the vids.

 

[Kaffei]

Be really careful with WoI off stage.. We can chase you off stage and one hit = you fall and die.
I think this is really obvious, but yeah.

 

[Coffee™]

Can we not do MK? All Pit players do is talk about MK or like Snake. The matchup is common and most people know the ins and outs of it already. Do a matchup where the participants aren't as common. And the thread needs a bit more organization in general. Singular matchup threads generally are hard to manage and hard to read. You will need to split them up into individual threads.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Er, yea... I was thinking about starting our first few chars with either an uncommon char, one of the lower tiers, or a somewhat easy matchup.
You see, we seemed to have focused on common chars so much that we would be unprepared against one of the uncommon chars, just like some other chars would suffer if a Pit showed up since they aren't really common either.
For suggestions, we probably should try like DK (my thread is somewhere around a few months ago but it either can be used, or restarted, u make the call on it), Link, or maybe even Fox... I don't even think we ever did Fox before, or Wolf for that matter... or maybe pretty much every char that's below us in the tier list now. We should work on some of those first, then work our way up to the more common, and annoying characters.

I won't start no extra threads until I get some opinions from others on who we should work on, who are NOT really common. Try one of the chars either in our tier or lower first, at least.

 

[Cha0tic NiGhTmArE]

then start with Wario, Falco, or Marth..They're 3 common played characters, high tier, and give Pit some trouble

 

[Admiral Pit]

Again, start with some uncommon chars, or lower tier ones. We gotta have some knowledge on some of the uncommon ones should one come up. Though Wario was already put up, we need some of the other chars too.

 

[Stryks]

Let's start off with different characters and not necessarily the top tier/high tier ones.

Lately I've been seeing more Fox users in tournamets as well as Peachs, so idk should we start with those first?

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Well, we're doing Wario atm.

He's bad for us, he's common, and enough people know the matchup to get some discussion out of it.

I'd like to start from the top, primarily because it's going to come up the most, and thus the most people will be able to get use from it. This information is partially used for educating lower and mid-level players in addition to helping fill the gaps in the more experienced players knowledge. If we stick with it, we'll hit all the characters eventually, so hold on to your pants.

If the rest of the board really has a problem with this, we'll do Yoshi or something bloody random like that next, but for now we're doing Wario. And I'd like to have some sort fo semblance of order.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Well, I'll probably make a thread in due time with a character of choice to expand our speed of progress. Trying to decide on a character will be kinda difficult.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I think we should go from top down, or at least in the order of how bad the old matchups are.

It's the most useful information to have on file, and even if either YOU or I know it, players who come to this board looking for help probably aren't looking to find out how to fight Yoshi. (Though, admittedly, I still need to learn that.) Then we should stick with it this time so we actually get everything done.

I'm thinking switch the focus of the discussion after one week. If we work through all the characters, start again and renew discussions.

 

[Stryks]

Well since the Wario is thread is up let's focus on that one for now, I already gave a small opinion on the matchup, not a lot though, have stuff to do

Also dude I'm loving the sprites you used, **** is Kid Icarus fun

 

[Coffee™]

I'd assume it should be obvious but I'll say it anyway. You should ask the corresponding boards for their input on matchups.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Already asked both Warios and... uh... MKs, actually

 

[Admiral Pit]

GL getting input from higher tiers. Most of the better players of said characters will either not help, will be biased, won't help, or they lack a decent amount of Pit experience, and that's what makes getting help from some of em very difficult.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Updated OP with links to currently active threads.

So how do we decide what matchup numbers to put down? Should we just make a poll for each after some arguments are laid down, or what?

 

[Cha0tic NiGhTmArE]

well i went ahead and started G&W since we know its bad, but i haven't actually herd input on how to combat him, and Ike. not a common character but still kinda deadly.. since that's what some of the pits wanted a non common character.

Updated OP with links to currently active threads.

So how do we decide what matchup numbers to put down? Should we just make a poll for each after some arguments are laid down, or what?

yeah i say after we have sufficient info on each thread for matchups we start trying to come to the ratio conclusion through vote/opinion.

 

[Esca]

Pit can never beat MK by the way. Just sayin'.

 

[IrisKong]

Is this serious? becasue it looks like we need to get started and more organized if we seriously are going to do a matchup thing.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Is this serious? becasue it looks like we need to get started and more organized if we seriously are going to do a matchup thing.

I agree.


With Pits recent and relatively unexpected rise on the tier list a lot of attention has been focused on his abilities.

I know Im mostly a lurker that very few people know, but I would like to see the Pit community grow. While I cant really go to tourneys to represent I figure I'd try to contribute somehow. I decided right now the best way for me to do that is to give a point of reference.

The following is the data currently shown in the popular, if inaccurate, match up thread on the tactical boards found here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226315

I organized it according to the new tier list. The first match up ratio is (supposedly) what we on the Pit boards board feel to be true. The second is (supposedly) what the opposing board feels the match up ratio is.

I can tell you in advance that there are quite a few ratios that many Pit mains will find inaccurate and surprising, particularly some of the ones they claim we currently agree on. I figure since our matchup threads currently are moving rather slowly, I might use this reference to spark some new debate.

So without further delay:

S:

Meta Knight 40:60, -/-

A:

Snake 55:45, 45:55
Diddy Kong 60:40, 50:50
Falco 45:55, 45:55
Ice Climbers 60:40, 50:50
Marth 40:60, 40:60
Wario 40:60, 45:55

B:

King Dedede 50:50, 45:55
Pikachu 50:50, 50:50
Olimar 40:60, 40:60
Lucario 50:50, 45:55
Mr. Game & Watch 40:60, 35:65

C:

Pit -/-
Toon Link 50:50, 50:50
Zero Suit Samus 50:50, -/-
Kirby 50:50, 45:55
R.O.B. 50:50, 50:50

D:

Donkey Kong 55:45, 55:45
Peach 50:50, 45:55
Fox 50:50, 50:50
Luigi 50:50, -/-
Wolf 60:40, 50:50

E:

Sheik 60:40, 45:55
Pokémon Trainer 60:40, -/-
Sonic 50:50, 50:50
Ness 60:40, 55:45
Bowser 60:40, 60:40

F:

Lucas 60:40, 55:45
Ike 60:40, 55:45
Yoshi 50:50, -/-
Mario 60:40, 50:50
Falcon 65:35, -/-
Samus 65:35, 55:45
Jigglypuff 60:40, -/-

G:

Zelda 60:40, 60:40
Link 65:35, 60:40
Ganondorf 70:30 , 75:25

---------------------------


I figure I would come back with my opinions based on personal experience and my lurkings later as to not suggest it has the same value as the compiled data.

So what say you about these numbers?

 

[Mister Cadaver]

S:

Meta Knight 40:60, -/-

A:

Snake 55:45, 45:55
Diddy Kong 60:40, 50:50
Falco 45:55, 45:55
Ice Climbers 60:40, 50:50
Marth 40:60, 40:60
Wario 40:60, 45:55

B:

King Dedede 50:50, 45:55
Pikachu 50:50, 50:50
Olimar 40:60, 40:60
Lucario 50:50, 45:55
Mr. Game & Watch 40:60, 35:65

C:

Pit -/-
Toon Link 50:50, 50:50
Zero Suit Samus 50:50, -/-
Kirby 50:50, 45:55
R.O.B. 50:50, 50:50

D:

Donkey Kong 55:45, 55:45
Peach 50:50, 45:55
Fox 50:50, 50:50
Luigi 50:50, -/-
Wolf 60:40, 50:50

E:

Sheik 60:40, 45:55
Pokémon Trainer 60:40, -/-
Sonic 50:50, 50:50
Ness 60:40, 55:45
Bowser 60:40, 60:40

F:

Lucas 60:40, 55:45
Ike 60:40, 55:45
Yoshi 50:50, -/-
Mario 60:40, 50:50
Falcon 65:35, -/-
Samus 65:35, 55:45
Jigglypuff 60:40, -/-

G:

Zelda 60:40, 60:40
Link 65:35, 60:40
Ganondorf 70:30 , 75:25

---------------------------


I figure I would come back with my opinions based on personal experience and my lurkings later as to not suggest it has the same value as the compiled data.

So what say you about these numbers?

I think its better is we discuss one or two at a time and in different threads, the threads should be made by ONE person as to not create confusion and determine what is an active discussion (im more than willing to be that person, as Im very active on smashboards). we should technically start at the top of the list but those discussions are tired/done so much that people dont want to contribute. if its ok with the rest of the board, I will gladly start this. I say we start with wolf, and move UP the list from there ( D tier is probably the lowest down the tier that we will see more than 1 character of it played at a tourny). Any thoughts on this i will make the thread as soon as I know the opinion of the boards and we can get some actual movement going.

SUPER EDIT!!!!! I POSTED UNDER MY ROOM MATES NAME AGAIN. I AM IRISKONG

 

[Lenus Altair]

I think its better is we discuss one or two at a time and in different threads, the threads should be made by ONE person as to not create confusion and determine what is an active discussion (im more than willing to be that person, as Im very active on smashboards). we should technically start at the top of the list but those discussions are tired/done so much that people dont want to contribute. if its ok with the rest of the board, I will gladly start this. I say we start with wolf, and move UP the list from there ( D tier is probably the lowest down the tier that we will see more than 1 character of it played at a tourny). Any thoughts on this i will make the thread as soon as I know the opinion of the boards and we can get some actual movement going.

SUPER EDIT!!!!! I POSTED UNDER MY ROOM MATES NAME AGAIN. I AM IRISKONG

Im perfectly fine with split threads so long as the ball gets rolling. Things just didnt seem to be moving, and the recent attempts were at characters that, as you yourself say and I agree, have already been done so much. I think its safe to say we know the jists of those match ups under the current rules.

However with how things move here, Id almost want to do at least 3 matchups at a time. Otherwise things slow down and topics become sterile. That and who knows? Drawing the attention of more then one board at a single time may bring unforseen insights and surely new perspectives.

As for a Start point I think Wolf is about right. I would want to discuss Sheik as well. Her potential seems to be improving every time I look at her with chain tricks, stall/plank tactics, and more recently Bdacus (though I'm not sure how much that changes things... hence me wanting to start there.)

Maybe Sheik, Wolf, and Luigi to begin?

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

How about we just start from top to bottom? Pit has the most trouble vs MK IMO, and we have absolutely ZERO guidance on how to deal w/ this matchup. Then we can work on Snake, to Diddy, etc... Low tiers aren't as important, because they have limited options and are pretty simple to deal w/. Learning the high tier matchups is waaay more important than learning the mid/low tiers.

 

[Lenus Altair]

How about we just start from top to bottom? Pit has the most trouble vs MK IMO, and we have absolutely ZERO guidance on how to deal w/ this matchup. Then we can work on Snake, to Diddy, etc... Low tiers aren't as important, because they have limited options and are pretty simple to deal w/. Learning the high tier matchups is waaay more important than learning the mid/low tiers.

Well a few threads down there is this:

MK:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=212803

So yeah. Darting the 1st page of the Pit sub forum are a number of high tier character matchup discussions.

Though we could compromise and do a High tier Character matchup along with a low/mid tier matchup.

----------------------------- Edit.

Pardon Me. That was bumped by you. Sorry Gadiel.

 

[IrisKong]

Again, no one wants to contribute to alot of the high tier discussion because its discussed so darn much. I say we start low, give us a break from discussing high tiers. Then when we reach them on the list we will want to discuss them again, although We need some solidarity for who is going to post the threads, I am willing to do it, but I want some more opinions/ support. We need to step the board up!

 

[IrisKong]

5.5 hours later, no input..is it even worth trying, or are pit boards just that dead?

 

[Lenus Altair]

5.5 hours later, no input..is it even worth trying, or are pit boards just that dead?

My advice: Go Ahead and start a MK, Wolf, and Link Thread and invite their boards to comment. If you dont do it before the night is over, I will like I said, to get the ball rolling.

 

[IrisKong]

I have a better idea...ill do the top of a,b and c tier so snake, D3 and tink, because discussing the mirror is stupid for now) and then it will go snake,pika,ZSS. ect.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I'm willing to post about any matchup I know, but I agree that we should start from the top.

 

[IrisKong]

Well I got them started (ill add info later as im at work and cant fully concentrate) I figure if we go 1 from each tier and keep going down, it makes everyone happy. this week, snake, d3,tink. next week wil be diddy, pika and ZSS unless people decide to say its a bad idea in which case, **** it, do whatever..

EDIT: I cant ask the tink boards..as they are my old main and will be angry if they find out i went to pit, lol, someone else ask them. on the plus side, i can help with MU stuff, lol.

 

[Lenus Altair]

I invited the TL clan

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

No, the Pit boards are just...dead. Most of our top Pits retired and no longer contribute(Forward, Danny, Rouge, Underdog, etc..). I wish I could contribute, but I'm afraid that I'll say stuff that's not true, which is probably due to my inexperience.

 

[Lenus Altair]

No, the Pit boards are just...dead. Most of our top Pits retired and no longer contribute(Forward, Danny, Rouge, Underdog, etc..). I wish I could contribute, but I'm afraid that I'll say stuff that's not true, which is probably due to my inexperience.

Saying what works for you based on your experience isnt that same as saying things that arnt true.

Contribute as you see fit, but consider this: would you rather express a point of view that is potentially wrong and be corrected our keep to yourself and not learn the truth?

 

[MysteriousSilver]

Even if you think you're wrong, post it. It's the only way that anything is going to happen on this board, and people with differing opinions is the only way a healthy debate ever gets started, so post away! If your advice is bad, people will figure it out soon enough, but chances are that if it worked for you it'll work again, at least some of the time.

 

[Tetsion]

Koolaid didn't retire, and he's basically the best Pit right? Vex has been doing alright.. I think I don't know much of else. Negative comments isn't going to help any. I decided to be helpful from my experience fighting different chars.. even if they aren't correct if we all have input we can get a general idea ya know?

 

[Kool Aid]

never retired.

 

[IrisKong]

...back on topic...GO POST IN THE MU THREADS