Matt from Yo Videogames's Video on Smash 4

[Malcolm Belmont]

I know many people are going to dissagre with this video but i decided to post it anyway. What do you guys think?

 

[JayJay584]

I think that that's the most obvious clickbait title I've ever seen.

 

[Malcolm Belmont]

I think that that's the most obvious clickbait title I've ever seen.

I do think he brings up some good points but..man he got so many things wrong

 

[8-peacock-8]

It is. He also TRIES to make an argument but it falls flat on it's face the moment he mentions the word "demo".

 

[JayJay584]

I do think he brings up some good points but..man he got so many things wrong

I like how he thinks mind games aren't effective in Brawl. I also love how he thinks you can't play defensively in a competitive match. As if that makes a game lose it's competitive value. At one point in the vid he kept talking about how the demo was an early or pre-alpha build, but later on goes to say that he doesn't think there's enough time to fix what was wrong with the demo and what we see is 100% what we get.

 

[8-peacock-8]

He's suppose to be a big fighting game guy also since he works with "THE fighting game guy" (Maximilian) on YouTube. I really expected better from Matt.

 

[Malcolm Belmont]

I like how he thinks mind games aren't effective in Brawl. I also love how he thinks you can't play defensively in a competitive match. As if that makes a game lose it's competitive value. At one point in the vid he kept talking about how the demo was an early or pre-alpha build, but later on goes to say that he doesn't think there's enough time to fix what was wrong with the demo and what we see is 100% what we get.

Agreed. Matt and Max at great at fighting games such as Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 but here's the thing. Most of the games they play rely on offense not defense so they do not understand a fighting game can be focused on defense and still do well

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I don't think he understands demos, he's acting like the demo content is all that's done atm and they still have to complete everything else. Characters and stages are handpicked to give a taste of the game, all the characters are likely done since Sakurai says they're in the tuning phase atm, so his reaction to that was very silly.

He also talks a lot about how time matches promote defensive play, which it does yes, but that's not what anyone plays regularly, stock is by far the most popular mode and forces people out to play more aggressively.

I agree that lag should be lessened, but aside from that his concerns seem very blown up.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Max probably has some understanding of defensive play but can't really do it.

 

[Malcolm Belmont]

A Youtube comment summed up this video

"This feels more like a rant against Sakurai than an actual analysis of the game itself..."

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I don't necessarily disagree with the Sakurai rant honestly. I wouldn't go as far as calling him egotistical as that's going on a personal level, and none of us know Sakurai personally, and quoting the little "incident" at the Q&A is also very silly since audio recordings show us that it was all in a light-hearted manner. He does seem very stubborn though, and while that's not necessarily a bad thing it doesn't go too well with how much pride it also seems he's taking in his work. At least he seems to be bending a bit now that he allows more people to balance the game with him, but it's kind of incredible that it's still not gotten through to him that some people play this as a fighting game, not a party game. It can be both, the series has such flexible gameplay, it's probably one of the only fighting games that can be enjoyed by both casuals and hardcores equally, so it really should be taken full advantage of.

 

[Rhubarbo]

My prediction:

This game won't be competitive because it'll hit it's skill ceiling really quickly. With limited movement and approach options, Smash 4 won't have the legs to go far, as die hard players will "figure out" everything it has to offer shortly after release. As a reference point, let's compare Melee and Brawl. Even though Melee has been out 7 years longer than Brawl, it's meta game grew faster for longer, and is outpacing Brawl even today. Since this game is closer to Brawl than Melee, it'll probably experience the same fate.

 

[8-peacock-8]

My prediction:

This game won't be competitive because it'll hit it's skill ceiling really quickly. With limited movement and approach options, Smash 4 won't have the legs to go far, as die hard players will "figure out" everything it has to offer shortly after release. As a reference point, let's compare Melee and Brawl. Even though Melee has been out 7 years longer than Brawl, it's meta game grew faster for longer, and is outpacing Brawl even today. Since this game is closer to Brawl than Melee, it'll probably experience the same fate.

We can't make an opinion on which game it's closer to based on a demo.

 

[Rhubarbo]

We can't make an opinion on which game it's closer to based on a demo.

We can forge an approximate opinion. The style of game play demonstrated several years into development is probably the same style we'll get in a released package a few months from now. Then again, everything is subject to change, and we may get a game deeper than what's shown, or heck, a game deeper than Melee. However, critiquing matters parsimoniously, we should only judge by what we have, and what we have is a sharper version of Brawl.

 

[World]

I like how he thinks mind games aren't effective in Brawl. I also love how he thinks you can't play defensively in a competitive match. As if that makes a game lose it's competitive value.

It may not effect the competitive value but defensive play is boring to watch.

 

[JayJay584]

It may not effect the competitive value but defensive play is boring to watch.

I personally find it fun to play defensively myself, although I don't like playing against it. Funny.

 

[HeroMystic]

Defensive play isn't bad, but it can be bad if it has an extreme advantage over offensive play which is what Brawl did.

The opposite is bad too, but it's obviously more fun to watch because the engagement is active rather than passive.

 

[Radical Bones]

Where does he get his Pac Man footage from?

 

[Renji64]

Finally a video where someone says the truth i agree with him. The Defensive play of brawl is so unfun and boring. I don't want that i just want a game there is closer to melee. I'll hope this game turns out good. But matt should remember it is a demo but i guess he doesn't trust sakurai as well.

 

[Ulevo]

I do think he brings up some good points but..man he got so many things wrong

Really, because I think he hit the nail on the head on virtually everything.

 

[8-peacock-8]

Really, because I think he hit the nail on the head on virtually everything.

Not when he's talking about an old build of a game and trying to use it as evidence to say that the finished product wouldn't be as good as it should be.

I can understand what he means when it comes to Sakurai though.

 

[Ulevo]

Not when he's talking about an old build of a game and trying to use it as evidence to say that the finished product wouldn't be as good as it should be.

I can understand what he means when it comes to Sakurai though.

How do we know it was that old? The game comes out in 5 months.

 

[Fuqua]

Not when he's talking about an old build of a game and trying to use it as evidence to say that the finished product wouldn't be as good as it should be.

I can understand what he means when it comes to Sakurai though.

To be fair the finished product is about 3 months away from launching (3DS version 3 Months / Wii U 5-6 Months). Now I'm no expert on game development put personally i would assume that the last months of development aren't spent on changing up the core mechanics, which would mean that this demo could very well be extremely similar to the final build of the game.

 

[JayJay584]

To be fair the finished product is about 3 months away from launching (3DS version 3 Months / Wii U 5-6 Months). Now I'm no expert on game development put personally i would assume that the last months of development aren't spent on changing up the core mechanics, which would mean that this demo could very well be extremely similar to the final build of the game.

This demo could have been made several months in advance, dude. A lot of things point to it being older than the direct footage from April.

 

[Ulevo]

This demo could have been made several months in advance, dude. A lot of things point to it being older than the direct footage from April.

The problem with this is that even if it is an old demo, people are going under the presumption that actual mechanics are going to be changed. Changing the games mechanics creates a pretty big shift in how the game handles, and the product that we're seeing in the demo is very far off from what we're suggesting we'd like to see. Even if the changes we want are simple to implement, their affects are not, and expecting these to be done in a short time span and have them at launch is very unrealistic, quite frankly.

People keep saying "oh the demo's old, things can change", but it's mostly out of wishful thinking, honestly. Don't expect it to happen. We're most likely going to be getting a carbon copy of what we saw in the demo barring a few changes that are inconsequential.

 

[Senario]

I don't understand how he is getting hate. His concerns are valid. Maybe he might have gone too far with his description of Sakurai but so far a lot of what he said is true, Sakurai is very stubborn and doesn't seem to want to listen to what are arguably the biggest fans of his games. Nintendo seems to be trying but it is hard to work with somebody who is so stubborn they won't listen to you at all. The polish and so on about the game in comparison to other fighting games imo is a little bit of a stretch though. It needs some deep mechanics polish but if you didn't understand any of that the game LOOKS fine. (Although it may or may not play fine according to your opinion).

Defensive play can be done for a competitive fighting game but honestly it is so much more boring to watch and thus makes a worse esports game because of it. People watch League of legends, Marvel, Melee, and other such games on stream in droves because they are interesting to watch. And in general, people don't like it. There is a reason why Zero was boo'ed for stalling out the game for sudden death, and while it wasn't completely his fault due to the ruleset there is still a valid reason why people didn't like that. It wasn't interesting, and it wasn't exciting like an actual comeback which would have required a lot more work.

I think a lot of people understand that while we would like a new competitive smash game, what we saw so far at E3 may have been close to what we are getting. A lot of people were jaded about what brawl was and having precedent for something that was so exclusionary to the community makes negativity a reasonable reaction. That said, Prog has stated that Nintendo themselves are listening. Hopefully they have enough pull with Sakurai to get the game everybody can enjoy.

 

[JayJay584]

The problem with this is that even if it is an old demo, people are going under the presumption that actual mechanics are going to be changed. Changing the games mechanics creates a pretty big shift in how the game handles, and the product that we're seeing in the demo is very far off from what we're suggesting we'd like to see. Even if the changes we want are simple to implement, their affects are not, and expecting these to be done in a short time span and have them at launch is very unrealistic, quite frankly.

People keep saying "oh the demo's old, things can change", but it's mostly out of wishful thinking, honestly. Don't expect it to happen. We're most likely going to be getting a carbon copy of what we saw in the demo barring a few changes that are inconsequential.

A lot of you have unrealistic expectations though. The only thing I want is a tiny bit less lag on aerials and that's all I need. I love every Smash game and they were all different experiences. I don't expect you to be happy with the end product at all going by your posts though. Maybe you'll be surprised and like it but we won't know until the game is out.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

It is. He also TRIES to make an argument but it falls flat on it's face the moment he mentions the word "demo".

^This is such a broad statement and I can't believe how many likes it got.

EVERYTHING this guy is saying in the video makes perfect sense. Hes not condemning the game ABSOLUTELY that it will end up like brawl. Hes saying from what he has seen in the demo and hes feeling that the game will POTENTIALLY wind up like brawl if not worse.

This guy also supports his thoughts with facts
1. Sakurai stating that this game is meant to be a party game

2. 12 people balancing a fighting game. I don't think people understand that this is more of a BAD thing than a GOOD thing.

For example, one of the 12 balancing game discover "glide tossing" and reports it to sakurai. What do you think sakurai will see this as and do? He will remove it. Sakurai said himself he is aiming to make this a party game. Any techniques that require any kind of skill is getting removed from this version of smash. He obviously hasn't found them all yet nor his testers. Cause their are a few ATs remaining from brawl that I found in the demo.

And like the guy stated in the video favoritism can play a role here. Like mk in brawl. Something obviously went wrong there.


I love brawl and I already pre ordered this game. But I'm not biased enough just because it is the new game and I want to support it like everyone here to realize that speaking COMPETITIVELY this game is headed in the wrong direction.

My only hope is that Sakurai actually listens to the suggestions of the Invitational players.

 

[Senario]

^This is such a broad statement and I can't believe how many likes it got.

EVERYTHING this guy is saying in the video makes perfect sense. Hes not condemning the game ABSOLUTELY that it will end up like brawl. Hes saying from what he has seen in the demo and hes feeling that the game will POTENTIALLY wind up like brawl if not worse.

This guy also supports his thoughts with facts
1. Sakurai stating that this game is meant to be a party game

2. 12 people balancing a fighting game. I don't think people understand that this is more of a BAD thing than a GOOD thing.

For example, one of the 12 balancing game discover "glide tossing" and reports it to sakurai. What do you think sakurai will see this as and do? He will remove it. Sakurai said himself he is aiming to make this a party game. Any techniques that require any kind of skill is getting removed from this version of smash. He obviously hasn't found them all yet nor his testers. Cause their are a few ATs remaining from brawl that I found in the demo.

And like the guy stated in the video favoritism can play a role here. Like mk in brawl. Something obviously went wrong there.


I love brawl and I already pre ordered this game. But I'm not biased enough just because it is the new game and I want to support it like everyone here to realize that speaking COMPETITIVELY this game is headed in the wrong direction.

My only hope is that Sakurai actually listens to the suggestions of the Invitational players.

Exactly, he is saying it'll be a PERFECTLY FINE party game. But his concerns are for the competitive scene and are valid. Plus they are IMPRESSIONS. Not a final say on "this will DEFINITELY BE THIS". Need I remind everybody that an early version of Brawl played like melee? Then we got brawl because Sakurai saw what people were doing and didn't like it. This time around it feels like it is the opposite way around, this version plays like brawl so MAYBE Nintendo sees what people do and want from E3 and will work to change it. As for Sakurai, he has a precedent set so...I can't exactly trust him completely with listening and actually changing stuff.

 

[JayJay584]

Exactly, he is saying it'll be a PERFECTLY FINE party game. But his concerns are for the competitive scene and are valid.

I can't imagine this game not surviving in the competitive scene when Brawl did. I just feel like he is just afraid of the change of direction the game appears to be going. Things will be different, and the players and the metagame will evolve to adapt to these changes. Maybe some new techs will come around to shake things up.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

Any techniques that require any kind of skill is getting removed from this version of smash.

Show me where he says this

 

[skstylez]

As a competitive player I can say.. ew.. dat video

 

[Lugubrious]

Matt came off as having something against Sakurai to me. He's right in trying to voice his concerns, but he's approaching the subject in a limited fashion.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

Show me where he says this

That statement is coming from the fact that I am an active competitive brawl/melee/pm player

In 2013 I was PR'd 6th in FL for Brawl.

and with the fact that I got to play the demo 6 times.

So I know my stuff in most of the smash games.

When I played the demo I tried looking for things that I might find in Melee or Brawl but instead finding a lot of them missing. I mean I know its a demo but if sakurai wanted to do things competitively you would think I would be finding more AT's/skill based techniques.

I mean it just looking really plain. It's obvious sakurai is trying to remove all these things because he sees them as glitches, when really they only help improve the competitive portion of the game.

The only AT I could find was insta tossing and that Roslaina and Luma have an infinite.

There is so much that has been taken out for the worse.

 

[JayJay584]

When I played the demo I tried looking for things that I might find in Melee or Brawl but instead finding a lot of them missing.

There's your problem. This isn't Melee or Brawl. Also I heard Wavebouncing was in anyway, so there's that. Are you saying there's 0 chance of ANY new tech exclusive to Smash 4 being discovered?

 

[SSBBDaisy]

There's your problem. This isn't Melee or Brawl. Also I heard Wavebouncing was in anyway, so there's that. Are you saying there's 0 chance of ANY new tech exclusive to Smash 4 being discovered?

I know this isn't Melee or brawl. I'm pretty sure there will be some Smash 4 ATs that will be discovered but they will be there because sakurai didn't discover it first.

And I never said this was melee or brawl. I said I was looking for ATs that might be in there from Melee or brawl.

Expalin to me why I only found one AT. And one of the AT's that most people don't know about or how to do it. It's just one of those well hidden AT's. Also nobody is finding any ATs at all. Because I THINK Sakurai is aiming to remove them all if he can find them all. Which is what I stated in my previous comment.

Also wavebouncing is NOT in this. The wavebouncing that most people are getting it confused with is the same thing that they confuse it with in brawl. When you do a move near an edge on someone's shield it pushes you back. And when ur pushed back offstage while stuck in lag from the move it cancels it. This is something that is in this game but if sakurai found out about this he might remove it as it can be followed up with an aerial.

 

[Disfunkshunal]

@ssbdaisy

Removing techniques viewed as glitches is not the same as removing anything that takes skill. The latter is a deliberate attempt to isolate a part of the fan base while the former is an attempt to "fix" the game. If the former were true Sakurai and Nintendo wouldn't have went out of their way to have top rated smash players to participate in the tournament, it'd directly conflict with the goals of the game. It's also likely that fewer steps would he taken to bridge the gap between brawl and melee, even though sm4sh is seemingly more of it's own game then it is a middle ground.

As far as Sakurai trying to get rid of all the exploits, I can agree that a lot of the ATs previously discovered weren't present in the demo. What this means for the final product is inconclusive.

 

[JayJay584]

I know this isn't Melee or brawl. I'm pretty sure there will be some Smash 4 ATs that will be discovered but they will be there because sakurai didn't discover it first.

Well that much is obvious.

And I never said this was melee or brawl. I said I was looking for ATs that might be in there from Melee or brawl.

Ok, and they aren't. We'll just have to adjust and learn to play without them with whatever we find.

Expalin to me why I only found one AT. And one of the AT's that most people don't know about or how to do it. It's just one of those well hidden AT's. Also nobody is finding any ATs at all. Because I THINK Sakurai is aiming to remove them all if he can find them all. Which is what I stated in my previous comment.

You aren't going to find a goldmine of ATs from an E3 demo in less than a week. Besides, a game without ATs doesn't mean the game won't be a fun competitive experience at all.

Also wavebouncing is NOT in this. The wavebouncing that most people are getting it confused with is the same thing that they confuse it with in brawl.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Wavebouncing

I was referring to that. I remember reading or hearing from someone telling me that this is in the game. I could be wrong though, didn't get to play the game myself.

This is something that is in this game but if sakurai found out about this he might remove it as it can be followed up with an aerial.

If it's something that isn't harmful to the overall experience of competitive or casual players I don't think he'd touch it. Sakurai's not the boogie man.

 

[sunshinesan]

I think varied viable strategies can make the game most exciting. Most importantly, the game's engine should not heavily promote aggressive strategies over defensive ones and vice-versa. It should be the different characters' styles that dictate what strategies work for them.

People also need to realize even though the game is in it's developmental stages, what we've seen so far is more than game glitches or rough spots. The game's engine is built around Brawl style and for that to do a big 180 for it's close impending release is very unlikely. I will say that certain isolated mechanics might have been missing from the demo, most notably SDI.

I agree about the balancing issue that this video put forth. If Sakurai needs user input as well as pro input if he wants to balance this game. No team of 4, or 12 people is going to be enough for a game of this magnitude. I play Starcraft 2 and the way the dev team handles the balancing is so intimate with it's community that I have great respect for it. I hope for the same with Smash. But if Sakurai wants this to be a party game, then that's fine too, then balancing becomes almost a non issue, at least on a intricate level, i.e. Melee level balancing, which wasn't very good, would be acceptable for a party game.

 

[SSBBDaisy]

@ssbdaisy

Removing techniques viewed as glitches is not the same as removing anything that takes skill. The latter is a deliberate attempt to isolate a part of the fan base while the former is an attempt to "fix" the game. If the former were true Sakurai and Nintendo wouldn't have went out of their way to have top rated smash players to participate in the tournament, it'd directly conflict with the goals of the game. It's also likely that fewer steps would he taken to bridge the gap between brawl and melee, even though sm4sh is seemingly more of it's own game then it is a middle ground.

As far as Sakurai trying to get rid of all the exploits, I can agree that a lot of the ATs previously discovered weren't present in the demo. What this means for the final product is inconclusive.

I agree that without any AT's that a Smash Bros Game will still take some level of skill to play. It would mostly revolve around defensive play and mind gaming.

Like if you know you don't have a safe way to come up to me while I'm blocking and hit my shield without getting punished for it then you are going either wait for me to do something you can punish or shoot projectiles.

Mind gaming is something that takes a lot of skill and is used in Melee A LOT and that will always be in every smash game. But you need more options then just plain mind gaming. You need to have those extra things to mix things up on your opponent.


IDK maybe sakurai removed these ATs so he can put other ATs in the final version. But based on what Sakurai said(saying he wants this to be a party game) it's highly doubtful that's the case.


And you know about the invitational and the gcc support, and for glory, my first impression was like "Wow Sakurai is really trying to support the competitive smash community". I thought this because I forgot what most of the competitive smash community really wants and that's a fighting game not a party game. Melee was both as this guy implied in the video.

However, I haven't decided whether I agree with this guy in the video that Sakurai doesn't care completely about the competitive community because of all that he did at E3 for them. So I kind of have mixed impressions from Sakurai. Maybe, Sakurai hasn't experienced the differences between Brawl and Melee through a competitive aspect.


Maybe if Sakurai cared and went to a combined Brawl and Melee tournament it would help him better to understand what the majority of competitive smash players want in a Smash game. In other words, "For Glory and the Invitational" are nice extras but hes missing the core.

I TALK TO MUCH. Regardless I'm going to get Smash 4 and I already I know will love it. I just want it to stay active after a year and not die down like brawl has.