Matchup re-discussions

[Zync]

Seriously guys, keep it coming, this is great to read, med school has me busy these weeks but If I manage to play Jason's MK again Ill do the stuff JJ suggested the day before, besides also doing the basic advice involved around here.

So basically, wofl should never aproach MK? Usmash OoS seems like a great option in many situations, as long as the MK doesnt DI out of it

 

[castorpollux]

I feel like the best approach in this game is to walk up to opponent and just react.

 

[_Kain_]

I feel like the best approach in this game is to walk up to opponent and just react.

This lol

you can approach Mk just don't willingly go into his danger areas (Ftilt, Dtilt, Shuttle loop range basically) without your front facing towards him otherwise you have no options to compete with those and don't throw a hitbox out unless you know its going to hit his shield and cancel right unless SWOOP SHUTTLE LOOP or nado

 

[castorpollux]

Can someone test this out and do this in order and see how well it works when you're playing a game vs mk?

1st time you walk up to mk, dsmash at max distance
2nd time you walk up to mk, grab
3rd time you run up to mk, spotdodge right in front of him, then jab or grab
4th time you run up to mk, roll behind him and jab or grab

can someone do this over and over again (without ever repeating the same option twice) and see what happens? I'm curious to see if this will work

 

[MegaRobMan]

Honestly playing Coney's DDD to me wouldn't be as scary as playing Anti or Ally's MK

I mean I seen where you guys are coming from but MRM lacks experience against any top level MK against Wolf. Playing Anti is one of the most frustrating things ever lmfao. DDD just has a stupid grab. Doesn't seem equal to me getting opened up while I'm being defensive to me getting CGed cause I picked a bad option.

I've played Domo and Clel in bracket, took a game off Domo on accident back on 2010 (I think it was just so he could counterpick brinstar vs me), Clel ***** my face off.

I did a $20 vs Gamecube controller, best of 9 MM vs M2K before.

I don't have a lot, but I do watch some videos on occasion.

That Anti-Ally match on FD, if anti could Dacus better he'd have won the match. (same with Seagull vs M2K)

I might not be good and a troll, but...I forgot my point.

**edit*

I agree with MRM's post above

That's the first time I've ever read JJ say that.

I really don't think any of us lazy wofls have actually put in the effort to really study either the MK matchup or the D3 matchup. We just sort of play and think we know matchups when we really don't (i did this too).

I've studied the D3 matchup, actually. And the Sonic/Yoshi/Snake matchups since those were the best characters in my area back when I had equal learning opportunity vs people who actually played the game competently. Snake has too many different playstyles to truly figure out, but I have some mental stuff on the others.

Good read so far.

 

[tekkie]

The middle of nado has 0 hitstun and can be airdodged through, but DI'ing into the middle is hard. I only know this because Meep used to do this to get out of nado and grab 's.

iirc you DI down to one corner then the opposite downward corner, or DI one way/SDI the other?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Great input so far guys, I'll try to work something out with the difficulty rating because people seem to get confused by it. I'm open for suggestions.

 

[Ishiey]

I agree with basically everything Kain has said, but I'll refrain from more *-related comments until the definition is refined. As far as amount of work you need to put into the MU to win against a high-level opponent with equal MU knowledge, it is definitely among our most difficult.

I'd also comment about MK vs D3 stuff, but once again, Kain

okay because of this, i'm going to study the MK matchup really really hard and money match every MK at genesis.

Do it. For every MM against a high/top level MK that you win, I will treat you to a $5 free drink the next time we go out after Genesis.

I believe in you though. When I'm in Cali we should discuss things, I'd love to hear what you've been working.

I really don't think any of us lazy wofls have actually put in the effort to really study either the MK matchup or the D3 matchup. We just sort of play and think we know matchups when we really don't (i did this too).

I agree. These are both MUs where we *need* to put in that ridiculous level of work to compete, and none of us have because... well, I guess we either don't really want to reach that level or we have a laziness/complacency issue, as Seagull said.

If you just study stuff and put it into play consistently enough that you react accordingly in each situation I think thats all it takes to make MU's better. I feel I stopped doing this after I pretty much stopped actively playing and why I've basically just stagnated these last 2 years.

Thisthisthis. It's the main way to get faster, to the level that we need to be at against top players of fast characters if we want to win.

@ JJ Critique: usmash OoS against MK is super risky, in the sense that (if they're not doing dumb stuff like landing dair) you can only land it as a punish if they choose to attack you over a defensive option. We need every bit of speed we can get, which is why I'm thinking of reverting back to using more jabs.

@ starting with blaster, why do we do this? Anyone that is paying attention will just shield it, and then we've lost a crapton of stage control. How should we open up the match instead?

I agree that we need to find a way to deal with MK when our shield is weak. Probably jumpshine.

Kain and I were talking about jumpshine, but the problem is that FH shine means you're above MK and at frame neutral, so... not the best place to be. I'm sticking to SH blasters to beat approaching tornados / glides etc (Seagull, do MKs really tornado over your SH blaster? I've never had that issue, despite playing with someone that knows the MU quite well...), and I feel like a slightly delayed SH shine would be best for beating close tornados whenever possible. We DO NOT want MK to catch us in the air :/

Agreed that punishing the end of tornado is really getting harder and harder... We still have options though, just need to be faster. Like, super fast.

either way... there's a wealth of research and practice wofls can do to get better at this matchup. However, no wofl really seems to want to do this. Instead we make a bunch of matchup threads in hopes some other wofl will do the research and spoonfeed everything to you.

Hi.

I feel like the best approach in this game is to walk up to opponent and just react.

This lol

you can approach Mk just don't willingly go into his danger areas (Ftilt, Dtilt, Shuttle loop range basically) without your front facing towards him otherwise you have no options to compete with those and don't throw a hitbox out unless you know its going to hit his shield and cancel right unless SWOOP SHUTTLE LOOP or nado

Agreed. JJ, I'll test out your sequence next time I play False.

Class is over, time to post this and say more another time!

 

[M.C. Pee-Pants]

I really don't think any of us lazy wofls have actually put in the effort to really study either the MK matchup or the D3 matchup. We just sort of play and think we know matchups when we really don't (i did this too).

Thats not it no matter how hard you study or no the mu mk overall is still gonna be wolf thats just how the game is.

Obv d3 and wario is much harder than mk cause of a cg its common sense peeps

 

[MegaRobMan]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Seagull Joe]

Can someone test this out and do this in order and see how well it works when you're playing a game vs mk?

1st time you walk up to mk, dsmash at max distance
2nd time you walk up to mk, grab
3rd time you run up to mk, spotdodge right in front of him, then jab or grab
4th time you run up to mk, roll behind him and jab or grab

can someone do this over and over again (without ever repeating the same option twice) and see what happens? I'm curious to see if this will work

If I can remember to do this.

Kain and I were talking about jumpshine, but the problem is that FH shine means you're above MK and at frame neutral, so... not the best place to be. I'm sticking to SH blasters to beat approaching tornados / glides etc (Seagull, do MKs really tornado over your SH blaster? I've never had that issue, despite playing with someone that knows the MU quite well...), and I feel like a slightly delayed SH shine would be best for beating close tornados whenever possible. We DO NOT want MK to catch us in the air :/

Agreed that punishing the end of tornado is really getting harder and harder... We still have options though, just need to be faster. Like, super fast.

I don't SH blaster much. I usually FH blaster, b-reversal, or stand still blaster. SH blaster isn't very useful because will not be the range to be hit by laser. Agreed with your JS comment.

At the pinnacle of my blaster gameplay I was forcing 's to be scared as I ran away and b-reversed or jumped away. I stopped doing this and I don't know why . Gonna redo my old strats again. Done with long range laser. It's back to b-reversals for me.

Thats not it no matter how hard you study or no the mu mk overall is still gonna be wolf thats just how the game is.

Obv d3 and wario is much harder than mk cause of a cg its common sense peeps

will constantly get better. It's our job to keep up with the "meta" game .

I'd also like to indicate that Dtilt is one of the safest options because it shield pokes reliably and it has a low cooldown. One day I'll do everything I say without forgetting and be able to ****.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd like to remind you all that it's possible to give .5 ratings so if you think that MK is too hard to be only **** but also don't think it makes sense to have him on the same level as DDD then you can opt to give MK a **** 1/2 rating. Though I personally think that the difference is bigger than that. I'd give MK a **** and DDD a *****. Also, please take care to not use censored words in your posts because they get replaced by asteriks which can become confusing as hell. If you actually use a "bad" word then be a bamf like me and censor dodge!

@Tornado

You can DI out of the first and the last hit of tornado only. The rest of the hitboxes have no hitlag so the frame window during which you'd do that doesn't exist. If you get out ouf of Tornado during any of those hits then it's because the MK didn't move the Tornado correctly to get you with each hit giving you enough a frame window to nair through it from above - from there it always beats Tornado.

I just feel like you have to outplay the D3 badly in order to win while you don't necessarily have to with MK.

To compound to this, even if Wolf plays perfectly and outplays the DDD it's not actually guarateed that he's going to win. That's certainly not the case vs MK and results show that. If the Wolf solidly outplays the MK then Wolf wins - in the same hand I have yet to see a good Wolf losing to MK without getting outplayed either.

I really don't think any of us lazy wofls have actually put in the effort to really study either the MK matchup or the D3 matchup. We just sort of play and think we know matchups when we really don't (i did this too).

Indeed. While other characters have made substantial advances in their metagames there have not been any noticeable changes in Wolf's gameplay ever since about the time Semifer quit, Seagull stopped getting regular practice against MK and Kain quit practicing in general. Pee is a good player but he's not bringing in any fresh, innovative ideas into Wolf's play. Rather than that he's solidifying Wolf's position in the current metagame as a respectable character but if you want to compete in an environment that allows MK [something that Pee has not been exposed to at all] that won't be enough.

One thing that took me FOREVER to learn was that we can safely roll away when is nado'ing our shield. Our back roll is so long...

Actually, you can even roll through the tornado once it has hit your shield. I don't know the ending lag of that roll though but I think it's possible to shield before you'll get hit. Depending on your position this can be a superior choice.

Something Neo has told me a billion times is that shielding vs is one of the worst things to do. The problem is that if we aren't shielding then we need to be reacting quick as ****. I like the idea of jumpshining.

If you watch any of the people who have proven to be proficient vs MK you will see that they barely shield at all anymore. This actually makes perfect sense because you're not gaining anything from shielding most of MKs moves, Tornado in particular. The average high-level Brawl play has become so precise and fluid that even the 7 frames of shield drop have become a huge liability, especially when a character can execute moves in such rapid succession as MK can. That means that excellent use of shield is a necessity in top level play and that is also a gameplay aspect that requires solid reads and adaption skills. In practice that means that you should generally refrain from using your shield unless you're reading a move that can be punished out of shield or you're seeing an opportunity for a powershield.

If we aren't shielding then we need other options to keep a solid defensive game. Wolf's aerial mobility, jumpshine and bair are the safest and most versatile options we have for that purpose [blaster is not an option in a neutral position]. All three allow us to deal with the Tornado reasonably well but also keep our options open to deal with the rest of his moveset. Couple that with smart use of Wolf's roll - rolling is generally very powerful in Brawl - and you're definitely equipped with tools that allow us to keep up defensively. Between smart use of these moves you will definitely spot an opening sooner or later - whiffed shuttle loop, unwisely used tornado, random powershield, correct use of our OoS options, a timed shine or a spaced bair all provide opportunities for us to get in the hits we need to pressure him, to keep up with him or to even gain a lead. And that doesn't even include Wolf's grounded options yet, which are generally not used well by any Wolf player. Grounded, upward angled ftilt beats many aerials head to head and walking around is better than dashing in any way, yet no Wolf players have implemented this aspect of his gameplay yet.

I definitely think Wolf players are too liberal with their use of fair and shield in this matchup. Imo fair should mainly be used as a KO move as it is guaranteed to connect if you block a rising nair. It's something that stood out to me when I watched Kain vs Rain. Good use of fair is one of Kain's best traits but Tornado will just beat it every single time. There aren't many opportunities where you can use it so you might as well keep it fresh for that moment where you get a chance to score a KO with it. Dsmash on the other hand, is pretty useful in our general gameplay against MK and I think Wolf players should be less conservative with it and not worry about staling it too much.

 

[Zync]

Well as I understood the rating system, each star is for difficulty, so it doesnt matter if the MU is bad or not, the stars only are for how hard it is to play accordingly, so I'd still give 5 stars for MK and DDD even if the matchups are like 60:40 80:20 respectively

 

[Seagull Joe]

I agree with everything Gheb said. It wasn't much of a choice for me to lose practice. Omni up and quit brawl for melee -.-. He was proficient at the matchup and a solid player as a whole. He helped me the most vs . Neo has a better then Omni by far, but he lacks knowledge of the matchup even to this day. Neo is completely robotic in his option select. Omni plays off of reads. It's disappointing for me because I lose out on amazing practice.

Edit: I have perfected the ability to roll nado's on shield. So safe...I also practiced vs EE's today. It isn't amazing, but I was able to test jab and dtilt usage. Dtilt is pretty safe and jab is only good vs spotdodges/airdodges/quick punish from 2nd hit shielded Dsmash.

 

[castorpollux]

ishley,

usmash OOS is guaranteed punish if you shield mk's dash attack.

you just have to be trained in executing it. the only risk is that you didn't practice it enough

 

[Seagull Joe]

ishley,

usmash OOS is guaranteed punish if you shield mk's dash attack.

you just have to be trained in executing it. the only risk is that you didn't practice it enough

You can also grab it if you PS it. If a is dashing then he has 3 options. Either he'll Sh Fair, dash attack, or nado 9 times out of 10. The 1/10 chance is if he picks a weird option.

 

[castorpollux]

You can also grab it if you PS it. If a is dashing then he has 3 options. Either he'll Sh Fair, dash attack, or nado 9 times out of 10. The 1/10 chance is if he picks a weird option.

are you saying mk's dash grab less than 1/10 times?

 

[Seagull Joe]

are you saying mk's dash grab less than 1/10 times?

I'm saying if both characters are at neutral. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[_Kain_]

I think he has plenty more options then those. Dash > fair should never be a go to option for a MK unless Wolf's shield is low cause then it leaves him open to being punished since the fair wont poke

For one he doesn't have to commit to those he can just dash up shield and stop, then your forced into close combat with him which then opens more options as well

Also dash > forward roll is gdlk as MK. Can be punished with USmash OoS, but its pretty hard to react too if they mix it up well

One thing I've been thinking about is that when we land a grab on MK when he's around 40% or higher, since Wolf beats MK in the air should we sacrifice Dthrows dmg to put MK up into the air? I feel like MK is vulnerable in the air to Wolf, especially at KO percents where he basically has to be defensive to avoid being killed by fair

 

[Seagull Joe]

One thing I've been thinking about is that when we land a grab on MK when he's around 40% or higher, since Wolf beats MK in the air should we sacrifice Dthrows dmg to put MK up into the air? I feel like MK is vulnerable in the air to Wolf, especially at KO percents where he basically has to be defensive to avoid being killed by fair

Probably. Around the percent he starts flooring it can be beneficial for tech chases/laser/dacus, but Bthrow'ing or Uthrow'ing does put him in a scarier position.

 

[_Kain_]

If MK techs in place what can Wolf do?

 

[Seagull Joe]

If MK techs in place what can Wolf do?

It depends. is a weird character because if he techs in place he techs farther then most. I don't remember if he's close enough that we can guaranteed jab him.

At any rate, I don't know our options if he techs in place. I know them if he tech rolls (Fsmash/Re-grab).

I usually lie to people and tell them I get a guaranteed Dsmash if they tech in place or that they will always air release if they don't mash. Mindgames outside of brawl work.

 

[MegaRobMan]

FACT.

I killed MJG with Dacus after he retreated with tornado this weekend in tournament and it was probably the most satisifying kill I've had. He then proceeded to kill me at 30%, but the match was close for a second lol.

Point is that I just got a lot of MK practice vs High Level players (domo, MJG and to a lesser extent Bpow and JJ rockets), it's still way more doable than our other bad matchups, the MKs who have wolf practice (MW:W MKs since MK's reign supreme here and have for a while) agree with me. It's mostly skill based.

We have too many options, and we DON'T ever have to commit to anything. Our blaster beats his best approach and beats aerial based shuttle loop (just get better at megaman it will help your blaster skills). Downsmash kills MK at like 100 on most stages in the middle of the stage. Sourspot dacus is godly, and so is using it to punish his tornado even non-sour spotted.

Also if you keep BAIR fresh when he's at high % it kills too.

This matchup is don't get gimped.

 

[tekkie]

Downsmash kills MK at like 100 on most stages in the middle of the stage.

uh whatttttttt

 

[Seagull Joe]

I was thinking the same thing Tekkie lol. Dsmash is easy to live especially in the middle of the stage.

 

[MegaRobMan]

I do tend to exaggerate in case people haven't noticed, but Domo actually said "Man, **** Wolf, he's stupid man. (...) Fresh D-smash kills at like 100% middle of the stage" when we were at futures that night and he was commentating. I mean, it's a good use of hyperbola imho, it's like 130 with great DI vs MK so it doesn't really get your mind too off AND it's not like Paul Bunion is out here chopping trees down with his **** or anything.

 

[tekkie]

people should always DI up when playing against wolf anyways

 

[Zync]

people should always DI up when playing against wolf anyways

Yup, and they should always SDI out of the Usmash/Dacus , I cant find to use Usmash as a viable atack when 80% of the times it gets SDI'd

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think match 1 is very representative and match 2 illustrates the difference between fighting MK and fighting Snake. Note that his MK was more or less in his prime there. Fwiw I don't think any Wolf player has mentioned to surpass Choice and Semifer in terms of proficiency with Wolf as a character to this day.

 

[MegaRobMan]

Dacus works well to punish misspaced tornado cool down. I killed MJG with the 2nd hit of U-smash on his tornado because I timed it right.

U-smash is still good, 3% and no punish on you is still 3%.

 

[Ishiey]

We need to get back on this. There was some good discussion going on about MK, and it'd be a shame to see it die because of the forum switch.

Kain, I saw in your set vs Rain from APEX2013 that you'd pop out of the early hits of tornado a lot (and then you'd come down with shine), do you DI up or SDI up or what? In general, I want to talk about things that we need to do automatically against MK, since reaction speed is soooooooo important in this MU. A lot of the small things that screw me over in this MU are just me being too slow, like punishing a shielded grounded SL :/

Something that messes me up a lot is getting hit by a landing fair/bair. MKs don't seem to take defensive options after it, but I think we can shine out (at least, it was working for me). It might be a good idea to get into the habit of shining when MK hits you with a falling fair, because otherwise we get grabbed :x

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DI'ing away from it is much better. Shine is still punishable and if you do it on habituation you'll pay for it against smart players. If you get hit by MK fair I think it's [technically] possible to DI the first hit far enough over him that you won't get hit by hits 2 and 3 and you get a guaranteed shine from above.

 

[Ishiey]

Well, I'm taking about when MK lands after the first or second hit, so I'm not sure if that would still be applicable :x

 

[_Kain_]

Holding up when the first hit or hits of tornado hit you will pop you up, then you can either shine, bair or nair, or double jump.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think that only works against grounded Nado.

 

[MegaRobMan]

We should discuss Ike next.

It would make sense for me, at least. Since all I lose to in tournament these days are MK's (MJG, Clel) and Ike (Mr. Doom X2).

 

[Ishiey]

Don't get jabbed and do Wolf things. Not a throwaway MU, but I really don't think it's something that's complicated enough or important enough to bring up next when looking at our other options. I'd rather do ICs or Falco or Marth or some other top-tier.

I'd also rather keep discussing MK forever, because he's still the most important MU to know and definitely one of the more complex ones for our character to get down. Buuut then I'll just make another thread for it since I want this thread to fulfill its purpose.

 

[MegaRobMan]

Ish I think you've forgotten that I'm joking.

Also IC's is this easy.

Step 1-Ban FD, I don't care if we can outcamp people there, just do it.
Step 2-Don't get grabbed
Step 3-Retreating bair off platforms mixed up with blaster from far away.
Repeat Steps 2-3.

 

[Ishiey]

I have indeed forgotten.

But yeah, Gheb, should we move on to the next character or keep going? Also where'd JJ go

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Idk, on the one hand I think we should keep discussing MK and see how people's advice works out in practice, on the other hand I'm not really sure if we have any Wolf player who is active enough and cares enough to actually work with it.