Matchup impressions as of 8/6/15

[Aphistemi]

thanks for the counter-discussion, really interesting and informative rebuttal!
if you would like, we can do some matches online to show you what I'm talking about, most people haven't really experienced G&W played at an optimal level, idk where we are at skill level relative to eachother but I'm sure I can show you some of the ideas I'm referring to. Let me know and we can try to find a time where latency won't be an issue since I share internet with people I live with.

I wouldn't mind having some matches.

 

[Folie]

Isn't that what I'm doing? discussing? I shared my opinion on this as a G&W main, where am I making this an "ego-measuring contest"? I asked you to provide video footage, such as training room, saved replays, they can be uploaded to youtube now, or even short clips of what you are talking about, so I can get a better understanding.

You are literally trying to enforce my experiences with my main, and all of the matchups I have faced, as facts, I mention myself being a good G&W player because playing at a higher level really shows what the matchup can do to certain characters, and different ways you get around their pressure, setups, kill options, and overall gameplay, I don't care if you are extremely good, or extremely bad, I asked for video footage, but you give me more stuff that I believe can be dealt with differently, because I actually have dealt with it differently. You don't have to agree with me, but don't get on my back when I ask for proof for these actions, then you ask the exact same thing, and you provide me with nothing but more of what you already said, I want your experiences in these situations, obviously you have been into them many times, so you don't have one replay?

Again, how does any of this not apply to you? My opinions are also based on my experiences with my main. I also consider myself decent with my main. I also find issues with accepting something that contradicts my opinion and experience without any proof that helps me do so. I would love to see your experiences that make you believe what you do as proof as well! Kinda leaves us at a standstill here.

Personally I don't have a lot of videos of my play because 1. My region is not streamed often outside of major regionals. I did attend a regional recently and make it decently far but none of my matches ended up on stream. Sorry :\ 2. I don't play online as much as I'd like to between working full time and not having many opportunities to play without latency because of shared internet that and i need to stop being lazy and get an SD card to actually save replays

Where have you seen a fox do this competitively offline/online? you talk about this stuff, but I have never seen it in action, not even at Evo, or Winter Brawl which I was Watching a few months ago, seeing the Fox vs G&W matchup at a pretty decent level, foxes do not have "sit back", you make this sound like meta knight brawl time of stuff, fox vs G&W is not unwinnable. It's hard, sure, but definitely not "unwinnable"

This is an opinion based off of my experiences and also in agreement with a lot of others in the G&W Skype group, which I would love to see you join as you seem to have a lot of discussion to offer. Personally, I'm able to beat someone I consider a very good Fox player in matches because he lacks experience and MU knowledge against G&W because I'm the only one he's ever played against. But when I play against one of my friends who I also consider a good player but is not as strong as a Fox player as the other one I mentioned, he has a lot easier of a time fighting me and usually beats me as he plays against me fairly often and understands how to fight against G&W.

It's things like this anecdote (and the fact that there's a lack of top-level G&W representation and consequentially a lack of knowledge about G&W) anecdote which result in what you're talking about, where Fox players lose this MU because they lack the experience and knowledge to fight in it.

I kind of want to extend this discussion to talk about how I think some characters have an easier time facing G&W despite a lack of knowledge about G&W MU compared to others, even when the MU isn't as strong in their favour as the others. A good example of this would be comparing Fox to Rosa/Pit. Fox wins the G&W MU more heavily than Rosa or Pit, but he has to play differently than what's considered meta for him to do so. Rosa in Pit are different in that their natural established playstyle works well against G&W regardless of the players knowledge of G&W. This is what I think causes people to think that MUs like Rosa or Pit are worse for G&W than Fox.

The point I'm trying to make is that MUs are a lot more complex than a lot of people think they are. When we talk about MUs we're assuming both parties know the optimal way to play the MU and understand eachother's characters, when, as we know well, this is rarely ever the reality of the situation. If this list was based off how G&W does against the average player with a limited understanding of the character and how to fight against him, this would be an incredibly different list.

G&W can Bucket Clay shot:

it can be a stock on rage, or worse, without rage if thrown at Duckhunt, This cancels out one of his annoying tools he can use against you, making the neutral a lot more bearable, you can use bacon to help you get near DH easier, or play mind games with him, with phantom hops, DH can win the matchup on certain stages, but that's why it's called Counterpick stages.

Bucket's endlag also leaves you in a very punishable position. open to grabs, and at close-mid range (where Duck Hunt generally should use clay shot), fsmash, which kills incredibly early with the latest patch. People talk about bucket like it's an uncounterable option, when in reality, it can be easily adapted to and even used to the opponent's advantage when projectiles are used as bucket bait to land punishes (Mario and Luigi are good examples of easily being able to do this to players who use bucket without a 2nd thought about it. I rarely even bother bucketing Luigi's fireballs anymore since getting combod for 30+% or getting killed off of down throw - down special really isnt worth it in most situations). Bacon is lag heavy (compaired to other characters' projectiles) and easily silenced by DHD's down special, don't understand why you think that's a factor.

Nothing stops falcon from learning the G&W matchup, At best, when fully mastered, it can be only even, because G&W can still combo him easily, bacon helps a lot when he's doing short hop bairs, or even trying to attack you in the air, but do not over use bacon. You can also do the combo Retro posted on him, it's a little harder, but still can be done, and still can be a stock. you shouldn't over use shield, and you should spotdodge more, and you will keep the falcon guessing with his approaches, A lot of falcon mains Offline and Online say G&W can potentally win the matchup, I'm not saying this alone.

Every character in this game with a half-decent combo game combos Falcon easily, but somehow he's still a higher-placing character on tier lists. Mix-ups are exactly how you play this MU, you're right there, but you neglect the fact that a patient Falcon (something that is not played by the heavy majority of Falcon players because they think they're playing melee or something idk) also has mixups that also lead into great punishes, punishing made a lot easier for him due to his speed and god-tier dash grab.

Granted, I throw out way too many bairs against Falcon in neutral and I really need to stop doing that.

I know his Up B has invincibility frames, I've said this in a video I made about G&W few days ago, Super Armor was something else I was thinking.

The matchup can be learned, making it even at best, but its still in Villager's favor because of the kill power, physical projectiles, and setups he can do. you don't wanna blindly run into villager, he has too much going for him, you need to plan out your attacks. Bucket jumping:

can also come extremely in handy when trying to avoid Villager's edgeguarding pressure. to avoid fsmash, and even stall out attacks, like trees, or give you an extra boost so you can be safe. when you're getting blasted off stage, or thrown off, also to throw out a random bucket, so your second jump can be used for extra jumping height, Villager can reach you and he has no Up B attacks.

We don't really seem to disagree on how to play against villager. I just believe the fact we have to work a hell of a lot harder than villager in neutral to play this MU and how we have trouble gimping him results in an advantage for Villager in the same way it does for DHD imo.

Because pacman has full ground control over the stage, making it extremely hard for G&W to do his d-throw combos, he's constantly throwing out fire hydrants, Doing grounded trampolines, and generally messing you up and avoiding the grabs, G&W benefits from grabs a lot, you should know this, and not being able to do that the entire match makes it hard, all the while Pacman can keep doing his setups, build up keys, play mind games with fruits so you can't dlit them in time, Explain to me why G&W should win this matchup? or at best, have it even?

I have no idea about this MU, I just wanted to know your thoughts lol, that's why I didn't say anything on it. My extent of knowing this MU is knowing that upsmash is an easy way to deal with hydrant but it's also an obvious option and can be baited. The one time I played this MU it went to timeout, and that was in friendlies lmao. I don't think either of us knew what to do.

Yes Roy has bad recovery, but he also has armor on the recovery, you can't just go out and gimp him, that's pretty hard, especially since he does have a hitbox on the Up B. A bait and punish roy can be scary, just like the Bowser matchup, but not AS bad, because he can kill you in a few swings. I could agree on it being at least even. but nothing on G&W's side being beneficial..

I'm not saying you stage spike him lol I'm aware of how his recovery works, I'm saying you use offstage moves such as fair and up b to gimp so that his Up B doesn't reach the ledge in the same way you would against Marth.

Easily Gimpable? have you not seen Boss' Luigi? Go on youtube and watch 5 of Boss' matches, and tell me even at the time frame, where boss gets "easily gimped", Luigi can go sooooo damn low into the blast zone, and come back up like a bullet, and there's nothing you can do about it because he's attacking on all sides, he doesn't even need to be near the edge, so key doesn't work half the time. and if you try to gimp him while he's doing this, you will get stage spiked.

He's easily gimpable for characters like Sheik, Rosalina, and maybe Pacman with Hydrants, but physically going after Luigi when he's doing this, is a dumb Idea. Luigi half the time don't even need Side B to recover or do this.

my answer to this would be runoff dair, but to be honest I haven't tried that quite yet. I'll have to get back to you on this

So you're telling me that G&W wins the matchup, but MK can beat / even out one of G&W's worst matchups? (Sheik), Dumb metaknights will run into spaced out Bairs, but G&W does get landing lag from it, and MK is fast, he can punish with a dash attack into upairs, and possibly Up B's, The MKs I fight don't normally miss this string, it doesn't take much for a MK to figure out how to do the string on light characters. MK is also pretty good in the air.

this is literally not how MU's work lol, MU's have nothing to do with "X character beats Y, Y character beats Z, so Z character must be beat by Y!". MU's are decided on how characters tools work on eachother, MK, G&W and Sheik's tools are literally nothing alike eachother. I have no idea how that would impact a matchup.

G&W has incredibly little landing lag on bair, and if he uses bair in neutral and it is not succesful, he should be able to either crossup or pull back and not be in heavy danger of being punished. People to seem to think that MK's neutral/punish game is efficent as Falcon or Fox's. It's really not against most characters.

It's really not THAT easy to get a really smart little mac off stage, the little mac boards can agree on this, at least 90% of them, a smart little mac would know how to avoid the situation G&W is trying to put him into, abusing armor on the right moments, avoiding grabs, and poking G&W out is extremely annoying, and he has the KO punch that can kill no matter if you are at 0.

I haven't seen these macs anymore sadly, but I think I have a replay I could dig up, if the patch didn't already corrupt it.

You're right on this, I should've been more clear, my bad. It's not easy to get him offstage in neutral, his neutral is incredibly strong. I meant it's easy to get him offstage and secure a kill once you get a punish on him at an adequate percentage.

why? from personal experience fighting good ones on anthers ladder, they have good aeirals that can kill G&W fast, Backair comes out extremely fast and has very little landing lag that can kill G&W pretty easily, kill power mixed with setups, and falco is pretty hard to take down, but his off-stage game is bad compared to G&W, G&W can take advantage of this, most likely leading to taking a stock, the matchup is even because he doesn't have a lot of what fox can do. but he still has a lot of things going on for him as his own character, especially with the buffs.

again, like Pac-man, I wanted to know because I don't get much experience in this MU. Thanks for the info

You cannot DI, or Up B out of true combos, this is without customs, and the fact that some of his true combos can kill early with a guarantee kill option, unlike G&W, he has none.

His combos being true rely on setups that rely on incorrect DI and/or positioning. Again, something I should've clarified on, my b. I also think our neutral is stronger than his.

And what's stopping Ike from playing YOUR game? He can easily adapt to what you are doing, and start punishing you for it, because the Ike decides not to play your game of waiting, Ike has power, and most of the time you will need to perfect shield to get into him, but he's also a lot more safe with rage on block, and one wrong move can lead you to losing a stock, Send me proof of this MU being "easy"

I didn't suggest camping, I suggested baiting his moves and punishing through that. Ike is not good at offensively applying on pressure on someone who is not approaching recklessly.

There's an Ike side main in the G&W skype group who consistently beats me in G&W dittos, but when he plays Ike against my G&W I consistently beat him. I will see if I can get some videos of some matches in the future

 

[Folie]

I wouldn't mind having some matches.

I'd be down, though I'm not sure if you intend on playing G&W dittos or what, which I don't think would prove much about what we're talking about other than who's better at G&W dittos. Either way, I'll shoot you a message

 

[Aphistemi]

Again, how does any of this not apply to you? My opinions are also based on my experiences with my main. I also consider myself decent with my main. I also find issues with accepting something that contradicts my opinion and experience without any proof that helps me do so. I would love to see your experiences that make you believe what you do as proof as well! Kinda leaves us at a standstill here.

Personally I don't have a lot of videos of my play because 1. My region is not streamed often outside of major regionals. I did attend a regional recently and make it decently far but none of my matches ended up on stream. Sorry :\ 2. I don't play online as much as I'd like to between working full time and not having many opportunities to play without latency because of shared internet that and i need to stop being lazy and get an SD card to actually save replays




This is an opinion based off of my experiences and also in agreement with a lot of others in the G&W Skype group, which I would love to see you join as you seem to have a lot of discussion to offer. Personally, I'm able to beat someone I consider a very good Fox player in matches because he lacks experience and MU knowledge against G&W because I'm the only one he's ever played against. But when I play against one of my friends who I also consider a good player but is not as strong as a Fox player as the other one I mentioned, he has a lot easier of a time fighting me and usually beats me as he plays against me fairly often and understands how to fight against G&W.

It's things like this anecdote (and the fact that there's a lack of top-level G&W representation and consequentially a lack of knowledge about G&W) anecdote which result in what you're talking about, where Fox players lose this MU because they lack the experience and knowledge to fight in it.

I kind of want to extend this discussion to talk about how I think some characters have an easier time facing G&W despite a lack of knowledge about G&W MU compared to others, even when the MU isn't as strong in their favour as the others. A good example of this would be comparing Fox to Rosa/Pit. Fox wins the G&W MU more heavily than Rosa or Pit, but he has to play differently than what's considered meta for him to do so. Rosa in Pit are different in that their natural established playstyle works well against G&W regardless of the players knowledge of G&W. This is what I think causes people to think that MUs like Rosa or Pit are worse for G&W than Fox.

The point I'm trying to make is that MUs are a lot more complex than a lot of people think they are. When we talk about MUs we're assuming both parties know the optimal way to play the MU and understand eachother's characters, when, as we know well, this is rarely ever the reality of the situation. If this list was based off how G&W does against the average player with a limited understanding of the character and how to fight against him, this would be an incredibly different list.




Bucket's endlag also leaves you in a very punishable position. open to grabs, and at close-mid range (where Duck Hunt generally should use clay shot), fsmash, which kills incredibly early with the latest patch. People talk about bucket like it's an uncounterable option, when in reality, it can be easily adapted to and even used to the opponent's advantage when projectiles are used as bucket bait to land punishes (Mario and Luigi are good examples of easily being able to do this to players who use bucket without a 2nd thought about it. I rarely even bother bucketing Luigi's fireballs anymore since getting combod for 30+% or getting killed off of down throw - down special really isnt worth it in most situations). Bacon is lag heavy (compaired to other characters' projectiles) and easily silenced by DHD's down special, don't understand why you think that's a factor.




Every character in this game with a half-decent combo game combos Falcon easily, but somehow he's still a higher-placing character on tier lists. Mix-ups are exactly how you play this MU, you're right there, but you neglect the fact that a patient Falcon (something that is not played by the heavy majority of Falcon players because they think they're playing melee or something idk) also has mixups that also lead into great punishes, punishing made a lot easier for him due to his speed and god-tier dash grab.

Granted, I throw out way too many bairs against Falcon in neutral and I really need to stop doing that.




We don't really seem to disagree on how to play against villager. I just believe the fact we have to work a hell of a lot harder than villager in neutral to play this MU and how we have trouble gimping him results in an advantage for Villager in the same way it does for DHD imo.




I have no idea about this MU, I just wanted to know your thoughts lol, that's why I didn't say anything on it. My extent of knowing this MU is knowing that upsmash is an easy way to deal with hydrant but it's also an obvious option and can be baited. The one time I played this MU it went to timeout, and that was in friendlies lmao. I don't think either of us knew what to do.




I'm not saying you stage spike him lol I'm aware of how his recovery works, I'm saying you use offstage moves such as fair and up b to gimp so that his Up B doesn't reach the ledge in the same way you would against Marth.




my answer to this would be runoff dair, but to be honest I haven't tried that quite yet. I'll have to get back to you on this




this is literally not how MU's work lol, MU's have nothing to do with "X character beats Y, Y character beats Z, so Z character must be beat by Y!". MU's are decided on how characters tools work on eachother, MK, G&W and Sheik's tools are literally nothing alike eachother. I have no idea how that would impact a matchup.

G&W has incredibly little landing lag on bair, and if he uses bair in neutral and it is not succesful, he should be able to either crossup or pull back and not be in heavy danger of being punished. People to seem to think that MK's neutral/punish game is efficent as Falcon or Fox's. It's really not against most characters.




You're right on this, I should've been more clear, my bad. It's not easy to get him offstage in neutral, his neutral is incredibly strong. I meant it's easy to get him offstage and secure a kill once you get a punish on him at an adequate percentage.



again, like Pac-man, I wanted to know because I don't get much experience in this MU. Thanks for the info




His combos being true rely on setups that rely on incorrect DI and/or positioning. Again, something I should've clarified on, my b. I also think our neutral is stronger than his.




I didn't suggest camping, I suggested baiting his moves and punishing through that. Ike is not good at offensively applying on pressure on someone who is not approaching recklessly.

There's an Ike side main in the G&W skype group who consistently beats me in G&W dittos, but when he plays Ike against my G&W I consistently beat him. I will see if I can get some videos of some matches in the future

Honestly, you keep saying that fox is such a unbearable matchup, and how its unwinnable really bothers me, but I'm kind of done discussing. just know this

https://www.smashladder.com/match/view/2967737

https://www.smashladder.com/rankings/sm4sh-wii-u/16/wii-u-summer-fall-2015/1/character/Fox

I beat this guy in a bo3 set and he's top fox on anthers, don't think he's good or know what he's doing? feel free to challenge him.

The MU is bad, but not horrible or unwinnable.

 

[Folie]

Honestly, you keep saying that fox is such a unbearable matchup, and how its unwinnable really bothers me, but I'm kind of done discussing. just know this

https://www.smashladder.com/match/view/2967737

https://www.smashladder.com/rankings/sm4sh-wii-u/16/wii-u-summer-fall-2015/1/character/Fox

I beat this guy in a bo3 set and he's top fox on anthers, don't think he's good or know what he's doing? feel free to challenge him.

The MU is bad, but not horrible or unwinnable.

that's awesome that you did, props to you. would you happen to have the vid of it? I'm always looking for vids of G&W's winning bad MUs against good players to learn from.

I still don't think this disproves Fox being among G&W's worst MUs, when there's factors like MU inexperience to consider. I know for a fact that Mav has issues against characters he doesn't understand well, as my friend and main practice partner has beaten him with D3 (https://www.smashladder.com/match/view/3187783). You can ask my friend, the D3 boards, or really any decent D3 main who understands the MU, Fox is a horrible MU for him, and the fact that he beat Mav doesn't really change that, it really just proves Mav lacks the MU experience and struggled because of it, and I believe the same is true for your situation.

And the proof doesn't end there my friend...
https://www.smashladder.com/match/view/3078639

I'm sure we don't really need to discuss the fact that the D3 MU is something like 60-40 for G&W. Here we have a lower ranked player beating a higher ranked player, in fact, the highest ranked G&W on Anthers in an unfavourable MU. How he did this, I assume, is from a combination of him having experience from a G&W main (me) being his main practice partner, and you, correct me if I'm wrong, not having a lot of experience against D3 played optimally (I'm assuming that's the reason you switched to Ganon, since he's isnt particularly good against D3).

When we talk about MU's, we're assuming both parties know the MU and understand eachother's characters, we're talking about a completely even situation, which is something that rarely happens. I hope this better clarifies the point I'm trying to get across here.

Looking forward hopefully playing some matches with you and learning from them can't pass up the opportunity of practicing with the best G&W on Anthers

 

[Aphistemi]

that's awesome that you did, props to you. would you happen to have the vid of it? I'm always looking for vids of G&W's winning bad MUs against good players to learn from.

I still don't think this disproves Fox being among G&W's worst MUs, when there's factors like MU inexperience to consider. I know for a fact that Mav has issues against characters he doesn't understand well, as my friend and main practice partner has beaten him with D3 (https://www.smashladder.com/match/view/3187783). You can ask my friend, the D3 boards, or really any decent D3 main who understands the MU, Fox is a horrible MU for him, and the fact that he beat Mav doesn't really change that, it really just proves Mav lacks the MU experience and struggled because of it, and I believe the same is true for your situation.

And the proof doesn't end there my friend...
https://www.smashladder.com/match/view/3078639

I'm sure we don't really need to discuss the fact that the D3 MU is something like 60-40 for G&W. Here we have a lower ranked player beating a higher ranked player, in fact, the highest ranked G&W on Anthers in an unfavourable MU. How he did this, I assume, is from a combination of him having experience from a G&W main (me) being his main practice partner, and you, correct me if I'm wrong, not having a lot of experience against D3 played optimally (I'm assuming that's the reason you switched to Ganon, since he's isnt particularly good against D3).

When we talk about MU's, we're assuming both parties know the MU and understand eachother's characters, we're talking about a completely even situation, which is something that rarely happens. I hope this better clarifies the point I'm trying to get across here.

Looking forward hopefully playing some matches with you and learning from them can't pass up the opportunity of practicing with the best G&W on Anthers

That match between me and Andreoo had nothing to do with matchups, the set was very choppy and latency was a big factor, it's hard to do any of my damaging combos in high ping, while all D3 need to do is use one smash attack to take me out.

I switched to Ganon because I cannot take matches like these serious.

With Mav, there was 0 lag problems:

I'm not interested in the skype group invitation, especially how you just blew GimR's opinion right out the window, GimR is probably one of the most noticable, and respectable G&W mains out there, he has a long history with that character, dating from Melee, to Brawl, and to PM, I'm sure he knows what he's talking about, he probably knows more than half of this board, and I can fully relate to what he's saying, and I agree with him.

The way you "discuss" your matchups as "facts", like you're supposed to be THE G&W that we come to, is quite silly, I never even heard of you no offense,

I believe in GimR's opinion a lot more than yours. GimR has played in relevant Tourneys and Majors, not these local weekly things, These people who travel to these majors are extremely skilled and talented with their character.

I saw your Anthers history, and you lost twice to a Ness, G&W should win that matchup all the way, you even said so in these boards, so you're telling me you do not know the matchup of Ness? but you have the right to tell gimr, he haven't faced any good bowsers?

I'm not really looking around to be your friend, but I am looking forward to the fight, because I'm extremely curious on how you play.

 

[Folie]

That match between me and Andreoo had nothing to do with matchups, the set was very choppy and latency was a big factor, it's hard to do any of my damaging combos in high ping, while all D3 need to do is use one smash attack to take me out.

I can't really understand why you would accept a match with someone with that much of a distance if latency is frequently a problem there, or why you wouldn't file a dispute if the latency was really that bad. You one the first match as well, so unless there was a drastic change between matches, it couldn't have been impossible. I hope it's also a large amount of latency you're talking about, it does say in the site rules that players should be accustomed to a little bit of latency.

I'm not interested in the skype group invitation, especially how you just blew GimR's opinion right out the window, GimR is probably one of the most noticable, and respectable G&W mains out there, he has a long history with that character, dating from Melee, to Brawl, and to PM, I'm sure he knows what he's talking about, he probably knows more than half of this board, and I can fully relate to what he's saying, and I agree with him.

I did not blow his opinion out the window, I disagreed with him and I explained why. It is true Gimr is a good G&W and I wouldn't suggest otherwise, and is obviously the most covered. But I trust SeanS's knowledge as well, considering he plays with and generally goes even with Regi, the G&W who placed 13th at EVO and has spent more time on the character than the large majority of G&W players. I owe a lot of knowledge about MUs and G&W playstyle to him and others in the G&W skype group. If it weren't for the Skype group, I'd still be thinking the Rosa matchup is borderline unwinnable, or I'd still have troubles with the Ike matchup, and many others as well.

The way you "discuss" your matchups as "facts", like you're supposed to be THE G&W that we come to, is quite silly, I never even heard of you no offense,

this is not my intention, I understand how that I can come across like this. I'm being argumentative because I want to see discussion happen on this board, which is something that this board is lacking atm, even if I make myself look like an idiot/jerk in the process. I don't consider myself anything more than a mediocre G&W, I have heavy problems with my reaction time and mental game in neutral and my offstage game is shaky. I haven't played smash for long and I'm still working on fundamentals, but I do feel like, imo, I have a good understanding of this game in theory, I'm just lacking the application.

I saw your Anthers history, and you lost twice to a Ness, G&W should win that matchup all the way, you even said so in these boards, so you're telling me you do not know the matchup of Ness? but you have the right to tell gimr, he haven't faced any good bowsers?

it's a MU I have issues with and I haven't really figured out why yet, but I don't let that affect my opinions, it's still obvious to me that it's in G&W's favour, it just seems like a L2P issue that I'm having issues with this MU when most aren't. I don't really see how that has anything to do with Bowser though, I've never seen a good non-custom bowser on VGBC and that's what led me to make that comment.

It sucks you're not interested in the skype group, I was thinking we had much to gain from having the participation in discussion and testing of another good G&W, as you're clearly no slouch. I'd like to see Gimr in the group as well, but I understand he's a busy guy and probably wouldn't be able to talk much.

 

[SeanS]

Man, what a ****ing mess, lmao. Let's go over some basics as fast as I can.

Rosa MU

G&W is actually quite decent at responding to Luma, despite the common frustrations of beginner G&Ws in this matchup. The worst case scenario is obviously offstage, where she can simply place Luma near the ledge while Rosa herself covers ledge roll, simulating Diddy's banana trap in a way. But this is actually much easier to handle than Diddy's banana trap because Luma can be damaged. Ledge falling into sh nair can get Luma out of the way or otherwise pestered, leaving Rosa with no ability to cover the ledge temporarily and allowing a regular getup, which, while still putting G&W in a disadvantageous situation, doesn't force him to select how he gets hurt like in the Diddy MU.

And as for fighting Rosa in general, I wouldn't be able to give Dabuz a decent fight and take a few rounds off him if there was no response to her. A question of many of you is "how do I deal with Luma's jab in the neutral?", and the answer is simple: back air. Luma's hit armor generally begins after the first time it is hit in the match, preventing single hit moves from doing anything but clanking it, but multi hit moves will pierce the armor on the sequential hits. Well spaced back airs can both cover the initial jab range, safely preempt the jab ender, AND send Luma up into the air for a brief moment, leaving Rosalina vulnerable.

Also, dash attacking Luma is ****ing great. Sends her offstage really easily without much damage done.

Fighting Rosa herself is a bit of a hassle, but with Luma gone, it feels like a standard MU. You will have to be on the offensive as she camps you to get Luma back, but being smart with fake attacks, jab pressure, oos options, and your own dash attack should let you get the damage you need.


Duck Hunt MU

No, bucketing DH's stuff is simply not reliable in the middle of a match. In order to bucket, you need to shield the initial hits of his moves, which in and of itself is difficult. On top of that, you have to do this while you're getting attacked by multiple moves.

Even if you were to bucket successfully, the bucket gained is mid tier at best (~30%ish damage, so kills at mid-high percents).

The knowledge on this MU used to be that it was bad for DH because of his recovery, but then we discovered that he can shoot cans from under the ledge, making his recovery completely unassailable off of reaction.

Diddy Kong MU

G&W has no theoretical response to the banana, particularly when placed on the ledge. It is that simple. I mean, there are the other details, like how Diddy's AC fair lets him effortlessly beat out G&W's disjoints through its insane combination of priority and range, or how Diddy's dthrow angle is complete ass, or how edgeguarding him requires you to play from an onstage position, etc... but those parts of the matchup are literally the fun parts, no sarcasm.

Fox MU

I'm sorry, but the idea that you can kill Fox at 65% with uair is laughable, unless you're on a high platform or something. And why the hell would Fox chase you up there when he can comfortably spam shff up airs into you?

Let's establish the basic dynamics of this matchup:

1. Fox camps with lasers. G&W can bucket and / or run into him. Bucket is largely useless and will be a poor tradeoff, getting G&W hurt significantly while he only gets to threaten with a 10 percenter. G&W must go in.
2. At this point, Fox simply waits for G&W to do something. Basically anything and everything will be punished out of shield (oos dash attack, oos ftilt, etc. He can do pretty much anything oos lol.) The only way for this not to happen, because of Fox's quick punish game, is for Fox to lazily throw out moves against a character with disjoints, which no Fox with an IQ of 90+ will do.
3. If at any point, Fox feels like ****ing with G&W, he will shoot more lasers or do an illusion, threatening any hope of a consistent strategy against him.

Plus:

- Fox fastfalls so hard that NOT ONLY is he the hardest character to throw combo just based on the percents required, BUT he also gets to, unlike every single other character in the game, hard DI out of throw combos. That's an insane matchup advantage that can't be understated.
- He has two recovery moves that, by themselves, are among the best in the game. Through proper combination, via some basic understanding of G&W's edgeguarding options, he has a guaranteed recovery off of simple reaction.

What, then *does* Fox struggle with in this MU? Quite simply, killing. usmash is very telegraphed and risks G&W's usmash (lol), while uair needs a read of some kind and can be outspaced by G&W's dair. So if you are looking for hope in this MU, it is there; but good luck finding people who consistently lose while having large percentage leads. Also this is the same problem that, for example, Sonic has with G&W, and pretty much everyone agrees that it's not really that bad of a problem for him at all.

Luigi MU

I maintain that anyone who has an issue with this MU placing has no idea how to edgeguard. The aspects of the neutral game with this character can certainly be argued, and I know that it is really annoying to get autocomboed *and* killed from grabs; but that doesn't change the fact that every single time this character is not on the ground, you have a major advantage on him.

Matchup volatility does not equal bad matchup. See: Little Mac.

I actually have to go now, so quick summary: Side B is vulnerable to forward and back aerials, bair is safer because of misfire potential. Non-stage spiking dair is one response to nado because it will send Luigi up into the air, which is always a disadvantageous position for him in this MU considering your ground vortex abilities (particularly usmash, dash attack, uair). Also nado could get untechably stage spiked by fair / bair in theory, and I'm pretty sure I've done this a few times as well.

 

[GimR]

Can anyone explain to me why G&W wins, especially Gimr if possible since there's no good MKs at his region. So i wonder where the solid MU exp came from(unless this is all theorycraft).

Honestly, I think Metaknight wins the neutral pretty hard and hard punishing his down B is difficult too

 

[warionumbah2]

thanks for the counter-discussion, really interesting and informative rebuttal!
if you would like, we can do some matches online to show you what I'm talking about, most people haven't really experienced G&W played at an optimal level, idk where we are at skill level relative to eachother but I'm sure I can show you some of the ideas I'm referring to. Let me know and we can try to find a time where latency won't be an issue since I share internet with people I live with.

If you live in EU PM me your NNID, if not i won't accept.

 

[Folie]

If you live in EU PM me your NNID, if not i won't accept.

rip lol
If I get a good video of the G&W v MK MU, me or otherwise, I'll let you know and we can work off that.

 

[Mripod128]

Hey guys,

Spaced Dash Attack is the way to beat any matchup. I know this because I believe in GIMR.

All praise our lord and saviour GIMR

9999999999

 

[Folie]

Hey guys,

Spaced Dash Attack is the way to beat any matchup. I know this because I believe in GIMR.

All praise our lord and saviour GIMR

9999999999

I hate you

 

[Mripod128]

Any MU is not in G&W's favour, only in GIMR's favour.

 

[Dooms]

I don't know where this stands, but I'd put Greninja as worse than DHD.

He walls us out WAY better than DHD does with Fair, Nair, Dash grab, OoS Jab, and Shuriken. Anything we want from him has to be us outspacing a nair or a read. We can't punish things aside from poorly spaced moves and jab3 OoS.

He also has incredible kill setups that come from moves that aren't very hard to hit. Utilt, dtilt, weak hit of nair... yeeah.

I don't think this matchup is neutral if we're having DHD as slight disadvantage (or bowser, for that matter)

Duck Hunt MU

No, bucketing DH's stuff is simply not reliable in the middle of a match. In order to bucket, you need to shield the initial hits of his moves, which in and of itself is difficult. On top of that, you have to do this while you're getting attacked by multiple moves.

Even if you were to bucket successfully, the bucket gained is mid tier at best (~30%ish damage, so kills at mid-high percents).

The knowledge on this MU used to be that it was bad for DH because of his recovery, but then we discovered that he can shoot cans from under the ledge, making his recovery completely unassailable off of reaction.

Why don't we just hit the can with fair? I'm assuming (From my experience with playing as DH and against him with other characters) that this would work and we could hit DH with the weak hit at the same time, right?

I also don't know if dair will hit a can as well, but I'm assuming it doesn't based on us still having this as a disadvantageous matchup?

Also, I'm pretty sure that breaking discs and knocking cans away with our moves will make this matchup way more interesting AND make it way easier to fill the bucket. It'll become a mixup if we're going to break the disc or if we're going to bucket it, so they have to change their timing for the move. Unless GW doesn't have the tools to break the disc? I thought dash attack/fair/bair would work.

I'm very new with GW (I've only been using him for 4-5 days seriously), but I've played a LOT of DH, so I'm thinking of this more from the DH side where I don't see how this is more than an even match up.

Diddy Kong MU

G&W has no theoretical response to the banana, particularly when placed on the ledge. It is that simple. I mean, there are the other details, like how Diddy's AC fair lets him effortlessly beat out G&W's disjoints through its insane combination of priority and range, or how Diddy's dthrow angle is complete ***, or how edgeguarding him requires you to play from an onstage position, etc... but those parts of the matchup are literally the fun parts, no sarcasm.

I don't think AC fair is as strong as you're making it out to be anymore. :/

Also, banana isn't as hard to deal with as you're making it out to be (unless it's REALLY difficult to deal with it for GW specifically for some reason). A lot of moves clash with banana and make it disappear while cancelling the move you used. I figured dash attack would do this, but I could very easily be wrong.

I'm not sure what you mean with "particularly when placed on the ledge". I'm starting to wonder if you mean when Diddy has banana in hand or when he has the banana sitting on the edge of the stage?

If the banana is sitting on the edge of the stage (which means Diddy is probably off-stage or on the ledge), sitting next to it in shield beats all of his options. He's going to fair to pick it up, jump to pick it up, or ignore it and get back onto the stage. Shield is the best answer to all of those.

Edit: I don't know how GW fights Brawler, but I'm going to give you the rundown on the character in general since I've mained him for quite a while and he's my custom-legal main.

1111 Brawler (any size): He doesn't have anything. Smashes kill, dair kills, bair CAN kill (but not really), side-b kills, shotput kills, and that's all. Mii Brawler is good because of 2/3 up special and 2 down special. Without those he loses a LOT of mobility (he becomes one of the easiest characters to juggle in the game literally) and he should not be a problem in the slightest to fight. You can SDI out of his most reliable kill move (side-b) and shotput can be rolled around and punished. Smashes are really predictable (and fsmash has 10000 years of cooldown). If you get beat by this character, it's simply due to lack of matchup knowledge. He's by far the worst of the three 1111 mii's. It's not even a question. This should be a worse version of Ike to you guys tbh. Gimping him is REALLY easy, too, because he doesn't have a recovery.

(1/2)x22 Brawler (default size): This is a low high-tier or high mid-tier character. He has ending lag on all of his aerials that are punishable much like 1111 Mii Fighter, but he has more OoS options (primarily Helicopter Kick). Helicopter Kick WILL kill around 60% if he catches you around the edge and getting out of it is really difficult and it's impossible after the beginning from my understanding. If he uses feint jump (his down-b), hit him. He doesn't get it back after he gets hit, so keeping him in the air without it is VERY ideal. If you spike him or footstool him, he's dead.

Throwing out helicopter kick is VERY legit in neutral. It's a quick option OoS that will do a lot of damage and will kill at higher percents plus it puts the Mii Brawler in a great position afterwards. Down throw into helicopter kick is a combo on most of the cast at higher percents (I honestly don't know about GW. Sorry ;__; ) so look out for that.

If the Mii Brawler is using the second neutral special (which he should be, since it's better than shotput on default-sized brawler), it's a charged punch. I never used it, but I thiiink dapuffster said it had super armor? They'll mostly use it to punish you for trying to punish their REALLY weird ledge getup timing. You can try to bait that out if you want!

All of the side-b's are bad. The one you'll see most commonly is 1, which is the multi-hit dash that will kill off the top. You can di out of it, although I'm not sure exactly how. I've also had people get hit by the beginning half of it and spotdodge mid-way through. It IS a good spotdodge punish though, so be cautious of that.

(1/2)x22 Brawler (small-sized): Top tier no question asked. There is VERY little endlag on all of his moves. Dair auto-cancels (and kills), spaced bair, uair, and nair on shield are super safe. Nair OoS is super solid for keeping people out. He's VERY mobile and he can also be played as a time-out character against most of the cast (which would probably include game and watch).

If you're in a scenario where you're going to get dthrow -> fair -> up-b combo'd, start out by di'ing inwards. The Mii Brawler has to do something very specific to get the combo to go off if you di it that way (which takes legitimate time in the training room), and I've seen 2 Mii Brawlers actually do it out of all of the ones I've seen online AND offline. Assuming you're not fighting Dapuffster or one of like 2 Mii Brawler mains in the midwest, you're probably going to not get death combo'd off of it as long as you DI that way. If they DO know how to combo you off of DI'ing this way, you need to start mixing up your DI because it'll combo no matter what. At higher percents, you want to DI down and outwards after the fair.

Shotput is a way stronger option on small-sized brawler than it is on default. He gets a LOT more mobility out of it. If you compare a b-reversed shotput from small brawler and a b-reversed shotput from default brawler, the results are... different to say the least. Do not try to dash attack Brawler after he throws a shotput and it hits your shield. It will lead to you getting combo'd very easily because it does not have as much endlag as you think it does.

Mii Brawler is going to spend most of his time A) in the air and B) going for dash grabs (and grabs in general). Grabs are very beneficial for him because he can almost ways get at least SOME percent from SOME combo. Dthrow double fair, dthrow nair, dthrow fair, dthrow fair helicopter kick, etc. The biggest thing about fighting Mii Brawler is realizing that 1) he HATES being in the air past his full-hop range, 2) his recovery is BAD if he's not in feint jump range and 3) he has a huge range problem. If you can get him past his comfort zone in the air with dtilt or uair, DO IT. You can get a dash attack punish really easily if you're punishing his landing if he doesn't have feint jump. Catching him out of feint jump with uair can easily be a stock, but juggling him when he hasn't used it yet is pretty difficult. If you see him falling into you with a bair or doing too many empty short hops, throw a bair out. He can't hit you with any of his aerials if you try to bair him because he doesn't have the range. He'll have to land and punish accordingly if anything at all.

Helicopter kick OoS is MORE legitimate on small brawler than it is on default size. His mobility when he's in fast fall is CRAZY. Do NOT try to punish it with a smash unless you have a hard read. You need to dash attack him for it (hopefully putting him off-stage) or grab him. Do NOT spotdodge against brawler. Helicopter kick DESTROYS spotdodges.

 

[Folie]

Why don't we just hit the can with fair? I'm assuming (From my experience with playing as DH and against him with other characters) that this would work and we could hit DH with the weak hit at the same time, right?

I also don't know if dair will hit a can as well, but I'm assuming it doesn't based on us still having this as a disadvantageous matchup?

Also, I'm pretty sure that breaking discs and knocking cans away with our moves will make this matchup way more interesting AND make it way easier to fill the bucket. It'll become a mixup if we're going to break the disc or if we're going to bucket it, so they have to change their timing for the move. Unless GW doesn't have the tools to break the disc? I thought dash attack/fair/bair would work.

I'm very new with GW (I've only been using him for 4-5 days seriously), but I've played a LOT of DH, so I'm thinking of this more from the DH side where I don't see how this is more than an even match up.

Fair is slow and laggy, really easily punishable, and it should be pretty obvious when G&W is going for it, so DHD can easily just bounce the can right over it. Dair is also slow and has bad landing lag. DHD should be covering G&W landing with aerials to hit the can with down b, or side b or any other punish at closer range. Again, DHD shouldn't have to throw out side b unless he can get a punish off it getting bucketed. There's really no reason to use side b at long range. With the disc being used at closer range, it'll become harder to predict when to throw out an aerial to break the disk and easier to get punished for doing so. G&W's best anti-can move would probably to dash attack it and rush DHD down after doing so.

Overall, if the DHD is playing their character and the MU right, they should be winning in an even setting imo.

I'm not sure what you mean with "particularly when placed on the ledge". I'm starting to wonder if you mean when Diddy has banana in hand or when he has the banana sitting on the edge of the stage?

If the banana is sitting on the edge of the stage (which means Diddy is probably off-stage or on the ledge), sitting next to it in shield beats all of his options. He's going to fair to pick it up, jump to pick it up, or ignore it and get back onto the stage. Shield is the best answer to all of those.

I can't tell if you're being serious? He's talking about dropping the banana on the ledge when G&W is recovering, which covers normal and roll getup, and can force G&W to recover high, which puts G&W in a position i think we can all agree he really doesn't want to be against Diddy...

 

[Aphistemi]

Fair is slow and laggy, really easily punishable, and it should be pretty obvious when G&W is going for it, so DHD can easily just bounce the can right over it. Dair is also slow and has bad landing lag. DHD should be covering G&W landing with aerials to hit the can with down b, or side b or any other punish at closer range. Again, DHD shouldn't have to throw out side b unless he can get a punish off it getting bucketed. There's really no reason to use side b at long range. With the disc being used at closer range, it'll become harder to predict when to throw out an aerial to break the disk and easier to get punished for doing so. G&W's best anti-can move would probably to dash attack it and rush DHD down after doing so.

Overall, if the DHD is playing their character and the MU right, they should be winning in an even setting imo.




I can't tell if you're being serious? He's talking about dropping the banana on the ledge when G&W is recovering, which covers normal and roll getup, and can force G&W to recover high, which puts G&W in a position i think we can all agree he really doesn't want to be against Diddy...

I played against Guy on antherladder, and beat him 2-0, both stages were pretty neutral as well

https://www.smashladder.com/match/view/3478854

If you don't know who he is, he's a pretty solid duckhunt that plays offline and on S@X series. I still have the replays as well. if G&W mains really don't know how to play against duckhunt, then I would gladly share my replays with them.

 

[Folie]

I played against Guy on antherladder, and beat him 2-0, both stages were pretty neutral as well

https://www.smashladder.com/match/view/3478854

If you don't know who he is, he's a pretty solid duckhunt that plays offline and on S@X series. I still have the replays as well. if G&W mains really don't know how to play against duckhunt, then I would gladly share my replays with them.

I'd be down to see the vids, I don't really get a lot of practice in the MU, good DHDs are understandably rare

 

[Dooms]

Fair is slow and laggy, really easily punishable, and it should be pretty obvious when G&W is going for it, so DHD can easily just bounce the can right over it. Dair is also slow and has bad landing lag. DHD should be covering G&W landing with aerials to hit the can with down b, or side b or any other punish at closer range. Again, DHD shouldn't have to throw out side b unless he can get a punish off it getting bucketed. There's really no reason to use side b at long range. With the disc being used at closer range, it'll become harder to predict when to throw out an aerial to break the disk and easier to get punished for doing so. G&W's best anti-can move would probably to dash attack it and rush DHD down after doing so.

Overall, if the DHD is playing their character and the MU right, they should be winning in an even setting imo.

Now I'm confused where DH is using his can. Is he putting the can on-stage? Why does landing lag matter when he's off-stage with the Dair? I also don't see why DH wouldn't use his can to cover himself off-stage and opt to put it on the ledge instead?

If you roll against his side-b you get a grab combo and potentially way more off of it. Also, if the side-b gets bucketed once, it becomes way more of a risky scenario for the duck hunt dog to use it, which damages one of his best tools in his kit. Also, it's not very hard to predict when to throw out an aerial if you're using empty short hops to pressure the opponent because DH has that whole disc animation prior to throwing it. If you're standing still and not hopping at all, it would probably be more difficult?

Dash attacking can is one thing, but rushing DH afterwards is... eh. He's expecting you to do that because you just hit away his projectile. Assuming he doesn't have another one covering himself, he's probably waiting in shield or already throwing out short hops to fair you.

It's pretty easy to dodge DH's can when you get used to where the aerials send it (especially if you're counting to see if the can is about to explode for the longer range). Down-b covering landings is... unrealistic unless he gets a lucky draw or he's using customs. Side-b is the best bet by far.

As someone that played DH for multiple months, I have no idea why you think that DH is winning this matchup considering that you can easily knock my can away with multiple moves, destroy AND bucket clay pidgeon, and you can juggle me really well. I also can't kill you while you can kill me WAY easier because you have an off-stage game.

I can't tell if you're being serious? He's talking about dropping the banana on the ledge when G&W is recovering, which covers normal and roll getup, and can force G&W to recover high, which puts G&W in a position i think we can all agree he really doesn't want to be against Diddy...

Lmao. I used Mii Brawler before he was banned so that's not a problem for me. Sorry for not understanding. That's a bad scenario, but I don't think that's a matchup changing scenario. :x

 

[Folie]

Now I'm confused where DH is using his can. Is he putting the can on-stage? Why does landing lag matter when he's off-stage with the Dair? I also don't see why DH wouldn't use his can to cover himself off-stage and opt to put it on the ledge instead?

I must of missed the part where you said you were talking about can being used while DHD is recovering, my b haha. Still, by the time you finish throwing out a move to get rid of the can, DHD should be safely holding the ledge.

If you roll against his side-b you get a grab combo and potentially way more off of it. Also, if the side-b gets bucketed once, it becomes way more of a risky scenario for the duck hunt dog to use it, which damages one of his best tools in his kit. Also, it's not very hard to predict when to throw out an aerial if you're using empty short hops to pressure the opponent because DH has that whole disc animation prior to throwing it. If you're standing still and not hopping at all, it would probably be more difficult?

I know that (about rolling against side b), but that doesnt cover him using side b against us landing. In the video Aphistemi posted, Guy doesn't really use it much while Boss is on the ground, moreso while he's in the air. That's what I'm talking about. I also think you're overestimating how fast our aerials come out (not very). If you can CONSISTENTLY predict exactly when DHD is going to throw out the disc, I don't think you're playing against a very good DHD imo.

Dash attacking can is one thing, but rushing DH afterwards is... eh. He's expecting you to do that because you just hit away his projectile. Assuming he doesn't have another one covering himself, he's probably waiting in shield or already throwing out short hops to fair you.

I don't mean mindlessly rushing, after playing enough bad over-aggro falcons I kinda think I understand why that's a bad idea lol. I mean just being on the aggressive once you get past it.

As someone that played DH for multiple months, I have no idea why you think that DH is winning this matchup considering that you can easily knock my can away with multiple moves, destroy AND bucket clay pidgeon, and you can juggle me really well. I also can't kill you while you can kill me WAY easier because you have an off-stage game.

Because you should anticipate and punish G&W trying to knock away the can our any of your aerials. You should be covering your recovery with the can to make offstage less of a threat.

Lmao. I used Mii Brawler before he was banned so that's not a problem for me. Sorry for not understanding. That's a bad scenario, but I don't think that's a matchup changing scenario. :x

it's definitely not the only reason, but having major problems getting back onstage without getting punished is a pretty bad thing man

 

[Dooms]

I must of missed the part where you said you were talking about can being used while DHD is recovering, my b haha. Still, by the time you finish throwing out a move to get rid of the can, DHD should be safely holding the ledge.

Not exactly. It depends on where DH has the can. Assuming that he's throwing it where it should be (above him to stop attacks from above), you're probably going to be able to hit him with fair. Does Dair not beat out can? I honestly think assuming the position is right, you can choose to either use dair or fair and hit both most of the time, and in scenarios where you have to choose one or the other, you can easily choose the dog versus the can because they need to be close to one another to cover himself in the first place.

I know that (about rolling against side b), but that doesnt cover him using side b against us landing. In the video Aphistemi posted, Guy doesn't really use it much while Boss is on the ground, moreso while he's in the air. That's what I'm talking about. I also think you're overestimating how fast our aerials come out (not very). If you can CONSISTENTLY predict exactly when DHD is going to throw out the disc, I don't think you're playing against a very good DHD imo.

Luigi doesn't have an easy time breaking the disc. Luigi struggles with projectiles. Mii Gunner vs Luigi is a good example of why this works. Set a grenade under him and he's like "wahh!" because he doesn't have the options to not get hit by it if he doesn't have a jump. It's a similar scenario with clay pidgeon. It doesn't work that way against most characters (especially ones that have multiple different ways to mix up their landing since we're not going to be able to throw more than 1 clay pidgeon out this way without our goal being obvious).

Clay pidgeon has a start up time AND a very obvious arc. If he uses it in CQC range, you have to have used your jump and be falling into him/he positions himself to be right next to where you're landing for it to work effectively. Neither of those should be happening because falling into DH is not a position you want to be in because he has his can and you have multiple different ways to mix up your landing. You're giving DH too much credit in this scenario tbh.

Frame 10 is enough to hit a clay pidgeon. >_>

I don't mean mindlessly rushing, after playing enough bad over-aggro falcons I kinda think I understand why that's a bad idea lol. I mean just being on the aggressive once you get past it.

Oh I assumed you meant going into CQC range. If you're staying in mid-range after you hit a can away, that's probably ideal.

I honestly think that playing in mid-range is ideal in this matchup as a whole. DH SUCKS at CQC and you can force him into CQC scenarios very easily just by A) knowing the timing of the down-b (which means not being afraid of it) and B) knowing that he has lag whenever he throws a projectile out. DHD has a problem against characters that beat out can and disc very easily (read sword users or characters with disjoints) because they **** him up in CQC by baiting things out in midrange, and I'm not sure why GW wouldn't fall into this category

Because you should anticipate and punish G&W trying to knock away the can our any of your aerials. You should be covering your recovery with the can to make offstage less of a threat.

You still combo me really well, have more edge guarding options than can will cover (since dair and fair can both hit me and the can as well as maybe bair), and if my projectile game is shut down by your dash attack in mid-range which is where I want to be using the projectiles.

it's definitely not the only reason, but having major problems getting back onstage without getting punished is a pretty bad thing man

Diddy has as many problems getting on stage as you do. Neither of you are good at it. I don't see why this is a bad thing for one side specifically. :|

 

[Folie]

Not exactly. It depends on where DH has the can. Assuming that he's throwing it where it should be (above him to stop attacks from above), you're probably going to be able to hit him with fair. Does Dair not beat out can? I honestly think assuming the position is right, you can choose to either use dair or fair and hit both most of the time, and in scenarios where you have to choose one or the other, you can easily choose the dog versus the can because they need to be close to one another to cover himself in the first place.

I really don't see how you think G&W is getting so close by the time you should be throwing out the can, you're likely getting knocked offstage far enough to the point you need the can to recover when you're at high % by moves that have mostly horizontal KB. At high percentage, G&W is not going to be hitting you with fair offstage before you send out the can to cover yourself. Dair can work against the can, but then you're below DHD and letting him get onstage, unless you somehow manage to get both the can and DHD with the dair. Again, G&W shouldn't be reaching you in time for him to do so.

Luigi doesn't have an easy time breaking the disc. Luigi struggles with projectiles. Mii Gunner vs Luigi is a good example of why this works. Set a grenade under him and he's like "wahh!" because he doesn't have the options to not get hit by it if he doesn't have a jump. It's a similar scenario with clay pidgeon. It doesn't work that way against most characters (especially ones that have multiple different ways to mix up their landing since we're not going to be able to throw more than 1 clay pidgeon out this way without our goal being obvious).

I'm not talking about the Luigi MU, I'm talking about how Clay Pidgeon should be used mostly as anti-air, not when both characters are on the ground and using the Guy vs Boss video as an example.

Clay pidgeon has a start up time AND a very obvious arc. If he uses it in CQC range, you have to have used your jump and be falling into him/he positions himself to be right next to where you're landing for it to work effectively. Neither of those should be happening because falling into DH is not a position you want to be in because he has his can and you have multiple different ways to mix up your landing. You're giving DH too much credit in this scenario tbh.

Frame 10 is enough to hit a clay pidgeon. >_>

you're not understanding. I'm saying that Clay Pidgeon shouldn't be used in neutral as you're implying. If G&W can consistently afford to use a move to nullify the threat without getting punished then DHD is not being smart about using it. The DHD I fight literally never throws it out unless he can punish me for taking action to counter it in away where I can continue being aggressive after doing so. If I shield on the ground or try to bucket it, I'm going to get punished with a grab, if I try to come down with an aerial against it or airdodge it, I'm getting punished with an aerial. He does not use it at close range or long range that would result in me being easily able to punish it.

Oh I assumed you meant going into CQC range. If you're staying in mid-range after you hit a can away, that's probably ideal.

I honestly think that playing in mid-range is ideal in this matchup as a whole. DH SUCKS at CQC and you can force him into CQC scenarios very easily just by A) knowing the timing of the down-b (which means not being afraid of it) and B) knowing that he has lag whenever he throws a projectile out. DHD has a problem against characters that beat out can and disc very easily (read sword users or characters with disjoints) because they **** him up in CQC by baiting things out in midrange, and I'm not sure why GW wouldn't fall into this category

let's compare marth fair frame data to G&W fair frame data
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Game And Watch
marth's fair is active 4 frames sooner, this makes it easier for marth to use on reaction.
marth's fair FAF is 7 frames sooner, meaning, in combination with a sooner active hitbox, he can throw out the move much more often than G&W can.
go into training mode and use fair multiple times in a row with both characters, and it should be obvious why the two aren't as comparable as a coverage option as you're implying.

in terms of hitboxes, while G&W's fair extends farther than Marth's, it lacks coverage above or below the disjoint. Marth does a better job of covering vertical area.

This a p good example as to why i think G&W's aerials aren't strongly effective anti-can options as you're suggesting

You still combo me really well, have more edge guarding options than can will cover (since dair and fair can both hit me and the can as well as maybe bair), and if my projectile game is shut down by your dash attack in mid-range which is where I want to be using the projectiles.

He does a good job juggling the large majority of the cast, that hasn't stopped him from having bad mus against characters he can juggle well (ex: Bowser, Rosa). Rewarding grab or offstage options don't sway a matchup heavily when he has problems getting into a situation where he can utilize them. The majority of G&W's MUs (outside of outliers like Yoshi, Fox) aren't decided on how well he can combo or gimp a character, they're decided on how well he can use his tools in neutral to get into a situation where he can capitalize on his grab and offstage options. So, G&W should have trouble getting grabs on DHD because of his lacking neutral game and his offstage tools are not as effective because of DHD's ability to cover his recovery with the can and the fact that DHD can recover from fairly far away. This is literally the point I've been trying to argue for pages now in relation to the DHD, Bowser, and Falcon MUs.

Diddy has as many problems getting on stage as you do. Neither of you are good at it. I don't see why this is a bad thing for one side specifically. :|

His Up B is one of Diddy's weaknesses for sure, but he has a way stronger neutral than G&W, edgeguard options that confirm into kill moves, his Side B special that allows him to recover without Up B in many situations. G&W faces a double whammy of having difficulty landing grabs on Diddy and having issues juggling him. Diddy has little issues comboing G&W and has easy setups into his grab. It really should be obvious why Diddy beats G&W so strongly despite his weaknesses.