Wind Owl
Smash Lord
Does it exist for this game? If so, link please?
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Matchup Chart...
- Thread starter Wind Owl
- Start date
Kinzer
Mammy
Winston
Smash Master
Doesn't actually exist, and that tier list that the guy above me linked is pretty bad.
Things you should realize about this game is:
1). the community is SO small.
2). the group of people that is actually good at this game is even smaller.
3). essentially all games played are friendlies.
4). even though everyone considers him top tier, nobody who's good actually likes to play kirby, so matchup knowledge concerning him are anecdotal at best.
5). the ssbm criteria of evaluating matchups at the highest level of human play is moot because of isai factor.
6). the top tier characters are all so broken.
So basically, any attempt to make an objective tier list/matchup chart to a high level of precision is impossible.
S-class: Pika Kirby Fox Falcon (in no particular order)
Bad: Link
Really Bad: samus
and then there's everyone else.
Things you should realize about this game is:
1). the community is SO small.
2). the group of people that is actually good at this game is even smaller.
3). essentially all games played are friendlies.
4). even though everyone considers him top tier, nobody who's good actually likes to play kirby, so matchup knowledge concerning him are anecdotal at best.
5). the ssbm criteria of evaluating matchups at the highest level of human play is moot because of isai factor.
6). the top tier characters are all so broken.
So basically, any attempt to make an objective tier list/matchup chart to a high level of precision is impossible.
S-class: Pika Kirby Fox Falcon (in no particular order)
Bad: Link
Really Bad: samus
and then there's everyone else.
Kinzer
Mammy
That's what I think too but the guy wanted a tierlist so I gave him one.
Zantetsu
Smash Master
He asked for a matchup chart. Not a tier list. Lrn2read.
Greenstreet
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2008
- Messages
- 2,965
I am pretty sure he can read mate. If you could read you would have read about the ridiculously small community for SSB64 and the degree of difficulty in accuracy there would be in constructing such a chart. I think he was doing the next best thing by providing a tier list.
Dont flame just for flame's sake.
Zantetsu
Smash Master
This doesn't change the fact that he asked for a matchup chart and not a tier list. The next best thing isn't a tier list. There not even close to the same.
Greenstreet
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2008
- Messages
- 2,965
Then what is the next best thing next to a matchup chart? An apple pie?
Zantetsu
Smash Master
Nothing. But the point is that he asked for a match up chart and NOT a tier list.
This is like you asking for an apple pie and I give you a cherry pie saying it's close enough.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
bad example cherry pie can be considered close enough to apple pie in the fact that they are both ...pie...tier lists and match-up charts are nothing alike
i was working on a match up list for a while but then i stopped and to be honest...the reason i stopped is because if you play ssb with a few good people,, and use more then one char, its painfully obvious who’s good against who. And if you cant remember 12 chars weak points...don’t think about competitive smash =P
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
lol ok thanks guys. Honestly I was hoping for the best but expecting what Gustav Wind said.
Greenstreet
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2008
- Messages
- 2,965
I'd still eat it.
mantlecore77
Smash Journeyman
Random arguement.
Metà
Smash Master
I think before the SSB64 community works on and releases a match-up chart, we need to agree on a tier list. The current one is terrible, and I'm pretty sure most good players agree with me.
Ness is over-rated.
Ness is over-rated.
Zantetsu
Smash Master
Ness is over rated and Link is under rated. The first step to getting a tier list is developing a team of educated smashers who know wtf there talking about. I think I need to go diggin for that thread again
You're a tool and I think Moogle made one of these...
EDIT: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=99834&highlight=list PWND
B Link
Smash Lord
why are all these brawl/melee players coming to the 64 board and not knowing what they're talking about =(
Winston
Smash Master
A matchup chart comes before a tier list, because it actually gives a good way of determining the order of a tier list.
Once you have numerical values for every matchup, you can then determine a tier list mathematically. And I'm sure you'd agree that it's easier to assign precise values for individual matchups rather than an "overall" ranking that has to consider many, many factors.
I have faith in Peek's character evaluations based on a). that he's a good player and b). I agree with the tier list posted in his sig, so let's see what he comes up with. (I hope he does come up with a chart).
Metà
Smash Master
Yeah, you're totally right about that. I think a match-up chart would give us a better idea of where each character stands, relative to each other. It makes sense we should do that first.
Zen Yore
Smash Ace
No he isn't.
Ness = same mindgames and combos over and over.
Spam dair and try guessing which direction he's gonna roll.
then uair uair uair nair to spike yadada?
You can't learn any-new-thing from Ness when you know how to use him.
otg
Smash Master
I like Peek's list, but I disagree with Ness being that low. His recovery is garbage, but as a character he's phenomenal. Based off Moogle's Matchup chart, Ness should be #4 or #5. Thoughts?
†¹Ãgøn¥¹†
Smash Ace
I still believe that the good tier list is this:
Top:
Pika
Mario
Kirby
Fox
High:
Ness
Yoshi
Falcon
Mid:
Jiggly
DK
Luigi
Low:
Samus
Link
That's only my thoughts but, I still think that it's pretty accurate.
The only major thing I'm quite unsure about is the high places..They are all mostly equal.
Ness has a bad recovery but, can 0hp ko every character.
Yoshi is simply awesome in terms of combos and has a good recovery *kind of* it can be tricky to counter.
Falcon has a not bad recovery, can be tricky to counter as well and he has good combos.
Top:
Pika
Mario
Kirby
Fox
High:
Ness
Yoshi
Falcon
Mid:
Jiggly
DK
Luigi
Low:
Samus
Link
That's only my thoughts but, I still think that it's pretty accurate.
The only major thing I'm quite unsure about is the high places..They are all mostly equal.
Ness has a bad recovery but, can 0hp ko every character.
Yoshi is simply awesome in terms of combos and has a good recovery *kind of* it can be tricky to counter.
Falcon has a not bad recovery, can be tricky to counter as well and he has good combos.
And Kirby is basically the same thing, and he's top tier. What's your point?
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
BEST TIER LIST IS UR ALL ***ITS LOL HAHAHA I HAXXED THIS GAME BACK IN 999 LOL (ADD A 1..) PS MY DK CAN BEAT ANY OF UR CHARACTERS.. . XCPET FOR SHEIK.. lol LOL I WAS HAKCIN LOL THERES NO SHIEK. PS JOIN MY CLIQ *** GAZ WE DONT CALL IT A CLAN NO MO.. CLANZ R GHEY.. MY CLIQ IS CALLED CLZG,
tigerbombzz
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2008
- Messages
- 86
if yallz want a tier list yallz need to select TIGERbombz and then JESUS!! yadadafoshodo? l33t sauce sniff! i would send you a screenshot of my cok but i dnt want you guys waiting 5 minutes for it to load. YES SNIFF
Winston
Smash Master
Proof that Ness is overrated.
Guys. Recovery doesn't matter that much. Combos don't matter that much once you go beyond Link and Samus because everyone has them.
APPROACH is what matters. Ness and Yoshi can't approach nearly as well as the other characters, namely Pika Kirby Fox Falcon (and Mario and DK even). Peek has Yoshi above DK; I don't play those characters personally so I can't say which is better between those two, but I sure as hell know that Pika Kirby Fox Falcon Mario are better than Ness and Yoshi.
That's why Peek's list is accurate. Btw, Moogle's matchup chart is pretty old, dunno if you noticed.
Proof that the best players at this game don't care about tier lists >.>
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
supa fail!
Recovery does matter..a lot....if it didnt ness would be higher then kirby
everytime someone says Ness needs to be lower i hear the same old (allready countered) points....read the rest of the debate on this suject pelase
And people should see also that there are very few good Ness players around and people in general don't use him much. This means something, doesnt it?supa fail!
Recovery does matter..a lot....if it didnt ness would be higher then kirby
everytime someone says Ness needs to be lower i hear the same old (allready countered) points....read the rest of the debate on this suject pelase
*waiting for someone to call me dumb*
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
not really, not many people use mario at a high level either but RedMario puts Mario top tier xD
I think both Mario and Luigi are better then Ness, they have a very good recovery and if fireball spamming is used properly it can be **** fcking annoying. Dont understand why Luigi is considered worse than Mario though. He has worse fireballs but he has the firepunch.
Fireblaster
Smash Lord
Luigi's slow. Luigi can't combo as well (sh is too high).
Cant combo as well? Maybe not but he has the firepunch finisher which makes his combos be not necessarily so long.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
†¹Ãgøn¥¹†
Smash Ace
^Lol, DI is awesome in 64.
Luigi is far more inferior then Mario.
Luigi is far more inferior then Mario.
Winston
Smash Master
.... you keep hearing the same old already countered points?supa fail!
Recovery does matter..a lot....if it didnt ness would be higher then kirby
everytime someone says Ness needs to be lower i hear the same old (allready countered) points....read the rest of the debate on this suject pelase
When were they ever countered?
If you already addressed someone else making those points, then I'm not necessarily going to be aware of that. Counter them again, here, or you supa fail.
I'll make my points again:
Because of how inherently imbalanced offense is in ssb64, how a character's comboing ability (past a certain point) and how good his recovery is doesn't matter nearly as much as the approaching game. Obviously if a character CAN'T combo well, then he's going to be less good, but the fact is that Fox, Falcon, Pikachu, Kirby, Mario, Ness all have effectively equivalent comboing ability.
The significance of combo ability and recovery falls off almost completely after you pass a certain threshold. If the character can 0-death combo consistently, then it doesn't matter how it's accomplished. Grab > fthrow > usmash > upair x2 > up b > edgeguard from falcon doesn't look 1/10th as cool as a ness DJC fair to spike combo, but they accomplish the same thing.
Being able to land the first hit that starts a combo or gets them offstage is what matters, and in that department, Ness gets outmaneuvered by many characters due to his very poor aerial speed.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
why would i argue the same stupid **** again, go search....
not like it matters anyways
Quez256
Smash Journeyman
Holy crap, can anyone explain how Samus was bottom tier in SSB64? I wasn't exactly competitive back then(since there wasn't any), but ****!