Matchup CHART - Redicussion

[Kool Aid]

lol play atomsk as pit.... you will neversay, pit bodies d3 again..

 

[Krystedez]

^(Sigh)...thank you...

 

[Kuro~]

I disagree with +2 100%. Krystedez. Get vids.

 

[Krystedez]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsbmiCDvAMg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMxh_W08j8o



There's more relevant videos out there... But in order of dates, 9B took a win off of Masashi it looks like quite well, 2-stocking him on FD...

I dunno, I just feel like this mu goes up and down, it's not a solid counter by any means, we may have a slight advantage, but in my experience it's close to even and varies on stage. We get the advantage in circumstances that don't occur often on all counterpicks, and we always have a hard time paving a way to the kill on stages like FD or Lylat surprisingly (I took Atomsk to Lylat, didn't end well)...

 

[Kuro~]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsbmiCDvAMg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMxh_W08j8o



There's more relevant videos out there... But in order of dates, 9B took a win off of Masashi it looks like quite well, 2-stocking him on FD...

I dunno, I just feel like this mu goes up and down, it's not a solid counter by any means, we may have a slight advantage, but in my experience it's close to even and varies on stage. We get the advantage in circumstances that don't occur often on all counterpicks, and we always have a hard time paving a way to the kill on stages like FD or Lylat surprisingly (I took Atomsk to Lylat, didn't end well)...

No. You're doing it wrong. Get vids of you vs dedede.

Bolded part i disagree with.

 

[Krystedez]

Ouch kuro, I'll try okay? lol. I suck against Dedede, though, you should look at other peoples... I dont wanna be biased..

Anyways I'll try to flesh this matchup out more when I'm actually playing, I'm in school and there's no one to play with (plus no wii anyways on campus LOL)

More experience tell here though, from those matches...

FD is terrible because you're always going to be predicted on how you decide to kill Dedede, plus he has the advantage of getting like 30-40 percent from one damn grab, maybe more. We get what, 60 percent with our CG from 0, and that's it, no more, and our grab range is terrible, we can get punished so hard for going for the grab like that the whole time.

So then you stick to arrows, having him approach you, and what happens? He spot dodges every one, even charged ones, even looped ones! Because his animation on his spot dodge is killer and can be buffered quite easily, unlike Link who takes precision.

When he finally does approach you, he's looking for grab, he's reading your aerials (dair, spaced fair being the safest) but bair... Oh dear god, it's so hard to find a read or good instance where you can safely bair him on this stage... There's no way to mix it up! that's why I hate FD.

Lylat... I really don't wanna comment on ... so you have the right to disagree because... I just didn't know the stage as Pit yet...X(

 

[Kuro~]

Ouch kuro, I'll try okay? lol. I suck against Dedede, though, you should look at other peoples... I dont wanna be biased..

Anyways I'll try to flesh this matchup out more when I'm actually playing, I'm in school and there's no one to play with (plus no wii anyways on campus LOL)

More experience tell here though, from those matches...

FD is terrible because you're always going to be predicted on how you decide to kill Dedede, plus he has the advantage of getting like 30-40 percent from one damn grab, maybe more. We get what, 60 percent with our CG from 0, and that's it, no more, and our grab range is terrible, we can get punished so hard for going for the grab like that the whole time.

So then you stick to arrows, having him approach you, and what happens? He spot dodges every one, even charged ones, even looped ones! Because his animation on his spot dodge is killer and can be buffered quite easily, unlike Link who takes precision.

When he finally does approach you, he's looking for grab, he's reading your aerials (dair, spaced fair being the safest) but bair... Oh dear god, it's so hard to find a read or good instance where you can safely bair him on this stage... There's no way to mix it up! that's why I hate FD.

Lylat... I really don't wanna comment on ... so you have the right to disagree because... I just didn't know the stage as Pit yet...X(

Hey bro, i'm just keepin it real Flawda style.
Why would i look at other peoples when your the one that needs the help...

Also it's not cuz of his SD mechanics that he can SD our arrows. Cuz that only works when he's not facing us. If u aim for his foot it helps somewhat(not that much though). I'll just wait till u can get u=me some vids.

 

[Atomsk_92]

This character is free.

 

[Kuro~]

This character is free.

Shuddap and play wolf more <3

 

[Krystedez]

I'll MM Atomsk on wifi and ban FD and CP Distant Planet

 

[Krystedez]

Thank you all for your contributions! THIS THREAD IS A GREAT GO-TO IF YOU WANT TO SHOW YOUR ABSOLUTE OPINION THE MATCHUP CHART! Pits need to consolidate their opinions here, so that it's easy to see for the time being.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

definately snake needs to be even. i mean, he rules the ground, but in the air, on platforms, and offstage, we win. he kills earlier, but we have everything needed to avoid death for a while. not to mention we are THE SINGLE BEST CHARACTER AT GIMPING SNAKE BELOW THE STAGE. NOT EVEN MK IS AS GOOD AS US. because we have WOI, and that alone will defeat any snake below the stage always unless you really **** up.

also we are 0 or+1 ICs as long as is at least one platform. just hit and run/fly the whole match. worst that could happen is you miss a button and get uaired. seriously just time em out.

i don't care wat you or anybody says. until you play a top 5 toonlink (jerm or jash or mjg or king toon or that other one). or even just someone of shadow1pj skill (which is high but not top 5, maybe top ten though), you can't sit there and tell me that MU isn't a -1. neither can approach but he has better ways of getting in, the sheer number of projectiles of varied timings he can use compared to an arrow and reflectors (that don't really matter because they are already out of that specific trajectory by the time we reflect it) allow him to try and get the kill and make us work much harder to get. sure we can camp him good too, but his overall solid up close game also tends to win since our long ranged moves aren't really fast enough, and unless it's slanted, dtilt hits to low.

 

[Suyon]

Well, that's only below the stage. Ness can do it too.
I forget though can we WoI them whenever they're hit from the C-4 or do we have to do it immediately when he's hit from the C-4. Say for example for part one he's at bottom but we WoI way above stage. Would the effect be there still? I don't want to know if it'll kill him though.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

but ness has a high chance of gimping himself too

also, effect is there but if you are like way above the stage he'll have time recover high. but if you just go a little above the stage and WOI when he is right at the bottom when he is coming up, the windbox is actually ridiculously large and it spikes him while he is still stunned. also like you said you can get in close.

and if you aren't sure, follow him and footstool out of WOI for either a hot win or sexy suicide

 

[Krystedez]

Hum~... Well if nothing I say can convince you that TL is even (or even possibly our favor) then forigve me if you don't want to read this. But here are the facts and our conclusion was agreed upon from both sides.

After I am finished, please explain to me, what parts of your matches with these high level TLs made it that difficult for you? What did he DO, not what does he have.

As for my end of things, and after discussing this matchup quite efficiently with Twinkie (we had it at +1 originally, and he helped me pull it down to a 0), here's my thoughts.

• +Has fast kill moves, fast jab, and AR is actually a valid approach option, along with Upsmash covering good distance when stepped out of appropriately.
• +Unlikely to be gimped
• +WoI and WoI Refresh gives him much-needed mobility in chasing and spacing around TL's projectiles
• +Reflectors can be used interchangibly to mix it up and build extra damage from his arrow pulls or boomerang which can be seen a mile away. Bombs? Just put your shield or AR away, he can't pull a bomb that fast.
• +Camping is very much helped by his gliding abilities and being able to go under the stage. Planking isn't much of an issue for TL, but scrooging and flying out of range makes it really hard for someone like TL to get in on Pit in the air.
• -Fsmash isn't as reliable with a small character like TL
• -Can not juggle TL efficiently
• -Unlikely to gimp TL easily.
• -Is lighter than Mario, how light is TL?

• +Has great mix up potential with fast bair chains at low percents, strings from that with projectiles, and a reliable kill move in Upsmash.
• +Unlikely to be gimped
• +Projectiles gives him much needed momentum shifting in the air to help his average aerial mobility
• +Hookshot (z-air) is an effective defense mechanism to Pit's attempts to read air dodges
• +Covers the ground quite well on his own accord if he controls his boomerang and bomb drops/throws efficiently.
• -Fsmash isn't as reliable
• -Can not juggle Pit after the 40-50 percent range from bairs. . .
• -Unlikely to gimp Pit at all.
• -Light.
• -Camping is somewhat limited due to the fact that he has to commit for an item or projectile that goes linearly after thrown, while Pit can shoot arrows that are aimed throughout it's whole duration.

Other notes:

Toon Link is not marth and can't just swat arrows away, he HAS to use bombs, arrows, or boomerangs, which you AIM around and space away from so you don't get hit.

Pit is not able to deal with bombs that efficiently when up close and needs to swat TL in the face every time he tries to pull one, either with his fair, dair, arrows, or u-air. Stay away from TL when he has a bomb, or wait for an opening when he still carries one. Going for the grab is a good touch.

 

[Suyon]

Well, I agree with the MU being even. The main thing for me is when playing TL is to avoid those zairs since they'll connect with a nair, fair, zair, or usmash and can follow up with a projectile. With that it kind of makes it a bit hard for me to reset again. If you PS the zair you get a free grab then I think. Also agree with avoiding the bomb as well since he can uair or some kind of aerial attacks which can kill.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

no if he is retreating when he zairs we can't grab it on power shield. you can maybe dash attack or the occassional AR.

@krys

WOI kinda helps with bombs and other stuff, but they can keep a solid zone with their zair and possible boomerang shenanigans and like invincibomb, they are getting in eventually with their overall solid up close game with that broken *** back air that isn't truly broken but yet it totally is. then they have nair (keep in mind he is doing this probably with some bomb ATs and boomerang traps that are all in play as well) and that dash attack. they also have that footstool dair just for those random times when it'll work.

every move of toon links that matter in combat are pretty the same, longer general range. which means he overall out zones especially since most of them are faster than our long range moves (ftilt and fair are so slow sometimes you know?)

then there is just his keep away game which is just better than ours for this MU.

and he is heavier than us. there that's what i struggle with most out of what you listed.

 

[Kuro~]

Toonlink isn't heavier.

 

[Krystedez]

Powershielding or just shield nair, zair, or fair is very delicious for Pit, it results in a decent punish and you don't get shield pushed or lose a lot on your shield so you CAN react to it.

If you're complaining about nair mostly you're letting him rush sh-nair you too much and need to time your shield or just defend in general.

If Zair gives you trouble you need to just shield and OoS Upsmash/Utilt

Finally bairs are more annoying because he can link them, but if you space it you can shield the tip and fsmash, and he practically DI's right in to it.

EDIT: Retreating zair can be punished with running up smash if you slide far with it, and then followed up with arrows if he's above you, or anticipate his DI behind you from the usmash and shield his incoming punish, if he uses anything at all. Sometimes he'll just land and be moving away from you.

Retreating zair, bombs, and follow ups with either are what my hardest issues are, but yet are easy to take care of when you've practiced. The rest, including camping, is all even ground and not stressful at all to deal with. I feel like we outcamp him but that's just me. Like I've stated, we can change our arrows movement, he can't change what he already has out (he can HAVE a lot out, that's what the issue is I'm guessing)

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

im just gonna concede and say that i just suck then because everything you say works never does for me because even when i do shield or power shield nair zair and fair, there is no way in hell to punish it let alone not get hit by like a bomb or returning boomerang or both.

mostly agree with bair, except the part where in an actual match you will be spaced to react with fsmash after shield lag and not get baired again, which again ill just say i suck and move on.

nor has punishing space zair at all with any variation of sliding with usmash ever been viable for me since they can just use anymove and hit you with it if you try to hit him with such a short ranged (horizantally) move. i mean height and length both make this move near unviable at all.

he can change the direction his boomerang returns in. sure it's no arrow, but the sheer number of spots he can control when combined with his mobility and superior ranged play make our arrows the inferior camping tool. i mean come on, just because we can angle it, doesn't always mean we outcamp. toonlink's projectiles and ability to SIMPLY AND WITHOUT THOUGHT weave in through arrows of different timings and hit you with something stupid like airdodge arrow>zair>returning boomerang>bomb>fair> edgeguarding scenario or something else that would happen while im playing toonlink all lead to 2 conclusions, i suck, this MU is -1, or both. lets hope i just suck even though im near positive no-one else here plays any worthy TL's at any given time.

edit:

also, i played fogo's jiggly puff a lot when he was over (he seconds jiggz btw, legitly) and i gotta say we probably are at most +1 or +2 based on stage. i actually believe her to be a character in brawl anymore.

 

[Kuro~]

We're plus 2 on jiggz imo. And i play mink

Maha. Get some matches of u vs toonlink. I hate hearing ppl ***** about mu for extended periods of time but not remember to get a few saved.

I've put a decent amount of effort trying to make sure to get as many falco matches as i could for example. Cuz i suck at it. And i got a bit better at it cuz of that. Just like wario. My opinion on that mu has changed DRASTICALLY.

Fl has an AMAZING toonlink on the level of the tops named 2nlio. I forgot to do my MM with him(with pit) last time so next time i see him i'll definitely get AT LEAST 2 mm.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

+2 is about right, but she sure is good offstage. she just stays in there air forever

 

[MVD]

Discuss ICs nowwwww

 

[Kuro~]

I think it's +0 cuz the LGL. Their risk vs reward vs pit is much higher than say...vs mk. They can grab most of our grounded moveset. They can pressure us well. Uair hurts us if we try to air camp.

We can play suuuuuper dumb. Arrows are a huge plus as well as multiple jumps. We can separate them pretty well. And have nice aerial strings. When we separate we can gimp nicely and our bair becomes easy to land and it kills super early. Timing out popo after killing nana works if it's their last stock. If not they'll have to kill themselves once they notice what's happening. Win-win situation.


MVD ME AND YOU MUUUUUUUUUUST GET SEEEEEVERAL MATCHES AT THE OCTOBER TOURNEY.

 

[MVD]

Ok I would love to get free money thanks bro love you <3 minus well buy me a steak dinner

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

with platforms +1 for pit. uair is good for them sure, but our jumping airdodge/dair camping combined with wing refresh usually keeps us out of range both vertically and horizantally out of their range. our jab stops iceblocks and the infinite part separates them. AR reflects blizzard and blocks and separates them and really ****s them up if you push it to where just the AR is hanging over the edge.

planking with types of properly spaced uairs will stop blocks, pull nana out and under, launch them 2 differant directions, the one behind usually dies from a gimp or bair. fair and dair are good on mix up while planking. especially dair due to the fact that it sets them up for uair or nair to separate them, usually uair is best.

arrows can just be slight adjusted around blocks, go over if they are melted enough, or you can jump and shoot arrows down at them so that way you're in the air out moving them.


HOWEVER, it's -1 at FD. we can't keep the game together their due to lgl and they are a major threat without platforms to hide on. thus we can get cg'd easier.

stages we can't fly under but have platforms, 0 or +1 based on which one because like PS2 has platforms we can glide and jump and WOI between platforms (throwing out some dairs and arrows here and there). but the stage changes, most of them suite us

 

[Krystedez]

IC's are definitely a hard matchup for Pit, I wouldn't mind a -1, but 0 is more plausible on SV and BF. YI and FD are total hell, and PS1 is scary for Pit anyways imo. Go on OTHER cp stages (rainbow/brinstar/delfino/frigate/picto/ps2/other liberal stagelist stagE), and it becomes +1 easily. Lylat is a I dunno for me, and then CS is crap.

 

[Kuro~]

IC's are definitely a hard matchup for Pit, I wouldn't mind a -1, but 0 is more plausible on SV and BF. YI and FD are total hell, and PS1 is scary for Pit anyways imo. Go on OTHER cp stages (rainbow/brinstar/delfino/frigate/picto/ps2/other liberal stagelist stagE), and it becomes +1 easily. Lylat is a I dunno for me, and then CS is crap.

^^^I totally agree. It's by no means in our favor. If we didn't have such STRONG counterpicks i'd say -1 easily.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

krystedez that avitar is awesome

 

[Krystedez]

haha thanks I made it with someone's artwork, right after watching Death Note.

+

=

(click this)

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

hype. i was just thinking how i need to do a new avi. maybe ill make some hype *** avi this time.

 

[NearZzz]

y am i here

 

[Krystedez]

You won't get me, Near, I'll take a potato chip, and EAT IT.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

LIES! he never eats a potato chip to Near, that was for L to see and L alone.

 

[Krystedez]

Grr. You've caught me. Maybe I should have planned this out better.