Matchup Chart Project 2015 - Calling Samus Mains!

[Zareidriel]

Hello Samus boards,

I'm Zareidriel. Over in this thread a guy called Assassannerr made a matchup chart, and asked people to help fill it out. It seems like it would be a cool thing to have. With once glance you could have a rough idea of a matchup. It won't be perfect, but for our first go at it in 2015 we're aiming for "somewhat functional."

So here's what I'm going to do. Go to every Character Discussion board, and ask the folks there if they wouldn't mind contributing. To submit one vote, you'll have to fill out one of these:

////////////******
Bowser
Bowser Jr
Captain Falcon
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Duck Hunt
Falco
Fox
Mr. Game & Watch
Ganondorf
Greninja
Ike
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Kirby
Link
Little Mac
Lucario
Luigi
Mario
Dr. Mario
Marth
Lucina
Metaknight
Ness
Olimar
Palutena
Pikachu
Pit & Dark Pit
Peach
Zelda
R.O.B.
Robin
Rosalina
Samus
Sheik
Shulk
Toon Link
Villager
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
Yoshi
Zero Suit Samus
Megaman
Pacman
Sonic
Ryu
Roy
Mewtwo
Lucas
Brawler
Swordfighter
Gunner
******//////////


Mark each character with a + for a match where Samus HAS THE ADVANTAGE
Mark each character with a - for a match where Samus HAS THE DISADVANTAGE
Mark each character with a number 0 for a match you feel is very even.

NOTE THAT I AM ONLY TAKING VOTES FROM MEMBERS WITH Samus IN THEIR PROFILE BAR. It can be as either "Wii U Main" or "3DS Main". But if Samus is in neither one of those slots when I count the votes on Friday, Nov 13, it won't be counted.

(Yes, for the avid democrats out there, that means you can vote for one other character as well.)

Like I said, they won't be perfect, and each board will probably be a little biased toward their own respective character. But the results should be interesting regardless.

If this thing is successful maybe we'll do a revised version in 2016.

Thanks very much for participating! We need as many votes as possible for each character so please submit a ballot!

 

[Xygonn]

Hello Samus boards,

I'm Zareidriel. Over in this thread a guy called Assassannerr made a matchup chart, and asked people to help fill it out. It seems like it would be a cool thing to have. With once glance you could have a rough idea of a matchup. It won't be perfect, but for our first go at it in 2015 we're aiming for "somewhat functional."

So here's what I'm going to do. Go to every Character Discussion board, and ask the folks there if they wouldn't mind contributing. To submit one vote, you'll have to fill out one of these:

////////////******
Bowser
Bowser Jr
Captain Falcon
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Duck Hunt
Falco
Fox
Mr. Game & Watch
Ganondorf
Greninja
Ike
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Kirby
Link
Little Mac
Lucario
Luigi
Mario
Dr. Mario
Marth
Lucina
Metaknight
Ness
Olimar
Palutena
Pikachu
Pit & Dark Pit
Peach
Zelda
R.O.B.
Robin
Rosalina
Samus
Sheik
Shulk
Toon Link
Villager
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
Yoshi
Zero Suit Samus
Megaman
Pacman
Sonic
Ryu
Roy
Mewtwo
Lucas
Brawler
Swordfighter
Gunner
******//////////


Mark each character with a + for a match where Samus HAS THE ADVANTAGE
Mark each character with a - for a match where Samus HAS THE DISADVANTAGE
Mark each character with a number 0 for a match you feel is very even.

NOTE THAT I AM ONLY TAKING VOTES FROM MEMBERS WITH Samus IN THEIR PROFILE BAR. It can be as either "Wii U Main" or "3DS Main". But if Samus is in neither one of those slots when I count the votes on Friday, Nov 13, it won't be counted.

(Yes, for the avid democrats out there, that means you can vote for one other character as well.)

Like I said, they won't be perfect, and each board will probably be a little biased toward their own respective character. But the results should be interesting regardless.

If this thing is successful maybe we'll do a revised version in 2016.

Thanks very much for participating! We need as many votes as possible for each character so please submit a ballot!

Thanks for starting a massive undertaking, from our matchup discussion I'd set the cutoff at 55:45 for + and 45:55 for -

This is already a consensus vote from a survey of the mains around here. If you want to take your own votes I won't stop you.

Character
+
+
-
+
0
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Just my two cents it is probably worthwhile to NOT make this chart symmetrical. Fill each row out from the point of view of the mains. Then the columns will represent what the opposing main thinks of your character. This will simultaneously capture main specific knowledge and main bias without having to adjust anything.

For example, I expect ness mains to give samus a plus because she is "bad" even though they are unfamiliar with the matchups due to samus' low popularity. So if you look at Samus x Ness, you get an = (Samus thinks Ness is equal). If you look at Ness x Samus, you'll see a + (Ness thinks Samus is disadvantaged).

Edit for more granularity/fewer 0s. I think a lot of MUs in this game are very close to even. Red Green and Yellow will make the chart more informative than a straight red/green.

Edit, messed up sonic, he is a -

 

[Zareidriel]

Yeah no problem, I think it would be a very cool thing to have if we can make it happen. Very interesting results you have there, Samus boards. Well, I'll let you all decide, Samuses, if you think I should use the consensus vote as your data, say so here. Otherwise, feel free to post a vote. And if I receive over 5 ballots I'll go ahead and make those the official result.

As far as your two cents go, I fully agree, I had planned to do so, it would be impossible to make it symmetrical anyway, with some of what I'm sure will be totally opposite viewpoints of matchup weaknesses between character boards.

 

[Ampheras]

////////////******
Bowser +
Bowser Jr -
Captain Falcon -
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong 0
Duck Hunt 0
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike 0
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby +
Link 0
Little Mac +
Lucario 0
Luigi +
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth 0
Lucina 0
Metaknight -
Ness 0
Olimar -
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach 0
Zelda +
R.O.B. +
Robin +
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager 0
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu 0
Roy 0
Mewtwo 0
Lucas 0
Brawler -
Swordfighter 0
Gunner 0
******//////////

Like that?

 

[Zareidriel]

Exactamundo~

 

[KayJay]

////////////******
Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon -
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt +
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch -
Ganondorf +
Greninja 0
Ike +
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby +
Link -
Little Mac +
Lucario +
Luigi +
Mario -
Dr. Mario -
Marth 0
Lucina 0
Metaknight -
Ness 0
Olimar 0
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach +
Zelda +
R.O.B. +
Robin +
Rosalina +
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager 0
Wario +
Wii Fit Trainer +
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus 0
Megaman -
Pacman +
Sonic -
Ryu +
Roy +
Mewtwo 0
Lucas 0
Brawler0
Swordfighter 0
Gunner 0
******//////////

 

[Hapajin]

Bowser 0
Bowser Jr 0
Captain Falcon -
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong -
Duck Hunt 0
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch -
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike -
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby 0
Link 0
Little Mac 0
Lucario -
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario -
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight -
Ness 0
Olimar -
Palutena +
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach 0
Zelda +
R.O.B. -
Robin +
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman -
Pacman 0
Sonic 0
Ryu 0
Roy -
Mewtwo +
Lucas 0
Brawler -
Swordfighter +
Gunner 0

 

[Afro Smash]

Bowser 0
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon -
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt -
Falco 0
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch -
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike +
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby 0
Link 0
Little Mac 0
Lucario 0
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario -
Marth 0
Lucina +
Metaknight -
Ness 0
Olimar -
Palutena +
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach 0
Zelda +
R.O.B. -
Robin 0
Rosalina 0
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager 0
Wario +
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman -
Pacman 0
Sonic 0
Ryu 0
Roy 0
Mewtwo 0
Lucas 0
Brawler 0
Swordfighter +
Gunner 0

 

[Hark17ball]

Character
+
+
-
+
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[DungeonMaster]

+
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I've always been the most positive (I think? maybe Depth_ moreso) in the matchup spread, keep in mind my XP is for-glory albeit at a high win rate.
As of the current patch I feel the buffs to nair tilted the falcon matchup in particular in our favour. Even the best players I've faced in recent memory have lost using falcon.
Same for bowser, swords, (except obviously Ike) and a few others like doc, mac that the n-air now gives us the "fast move" edgeguard / tech chase option.
ZSS is becoming easier for me to handle and predict. Still has advantage but I no longer feel it's amongst the worst matchups.
High priority, fast, large lingering hitboxes are my bane. Mario, pika, rosalina, yoshi. sheik, wario.
Overall my win rate has gone up 4% this patch, for what it's worth, which is significant by ratio. The problems still remain but I'm having more fun and less cursing.

 

[Emerlad_Element]

Is submitting opinions for a certain number of characters ok as opposed to listing my opinion of the full roster? I could give input on some but not all, I don't know much about a lot of match ups yet.

 

[Zareidriel]

Ideally I would prefer votes that contain + or - in more than half of the characters. If you think you have a pretty good idea of that many, submit an entire ballot and put 0's where you are uncertain.

 

[Vyrnx]

+
0
0
+
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I've always been surprised to see people put Falcon as a 30:70 for us... I think it's closer to 50:50 or 55:45 for us. But I'm still not that comfortable putting it as a plus.

The DK MU I would have put as almost unwinnable for DK a week ago but after playing some insane DKs lately, I'm not so sure.

We definitely don't beat Ryu. Any mistake Samus makes is a stock. Way too easy for Ryu to punish most of what we do. Yeah, we can zone and edge guard him, but it's already too lopsided of a MU to even make it 50:50.

Pika and MK are our worst MUs by a long shot. Pika because he's a good character and 3/4 of our move set doesn't work on him at all. Don't need much elaboration on that. MK because it is nearly impossible to land against him (like ridiculously hard), he edge guards us hard, he rushes us down, he's small... Already one of our worst MUs with that stuff but once you add in his death combo that does definitely work on Samus it's even worse.

 

[Emerlad_Element]

////////////******
+
+
+
(0)
(0)
+
(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)
+
(0)
(0)
(0)
+
(0)
-
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(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)
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(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)
******//////////

Zareidriel the ones marked with (0) are the ones that I am unsure about.

 

[Scream]

////////////******
Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon -
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt 0
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike 0
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby -
Link 0
Little Mac 0
Lucario 0
Luigi +
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight -----------------------
Ness 0
Olimar -
Palutena +
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach +
Zelda +
R.O.B. 0
Robin 0
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik 0
Shulk +
Toon Link +
Villager -
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer -
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus 0
Megaman 0
Pacman -
Sonic 0
Ryu 0
Roy 0
Mewtwo +
Lucas +
Brawler 0
Swordfighter +
Gunner 0
******//////////

DungeonMaster and anyone else that doesnt think that mk is samus worst MU how can you jsutify that?
I would even go as far as saying that it is the worst MU in the whole game with MAYBE puff - Olimar
My confidence goes so far that i am willing to pay anyone who can beat Kweet in a offline Bo5 with samus only 100$ on the spot!

Zareidriel I'd make the suggestion that online only should not count for the MU chart.
HANG ON dont crucify me on the spot please! I absolutely love their input and opinions as DungeonMaster has proved a million times over that even online only play can lead to deep understanding of the charachter.
But i can sa with confidence that offline is a much diffrent environment and changes the perception of MU's drasticly.
If we are going for optimal/accurate results offline play should be the norm right?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Scream I haven't died to the MK up-air combo since figuring out the DI to evade it. It *could* be a reflection of online MK and the for-glory bias of course, I've never entirely ruled that out so your comments are totally valid.
Beyond just the basic up-air combo, I feel MK is a good character but he's also a ball and tracking the ball-like characters in combos I personally find easy.
I also feel he's not able to follow up in the air in general, his jumps are too low in height, i.e. if he misses his initial chance at the up-air combo, he doesn't get very much after that.You have to for a hard-read up-B all the time, and Samus is a hard punish character.
Kweet plz add me, my schedule is random, fair warning, so it may take a while but if you have a room open and I'm online I'll hop in.

 

[Kweet]

I don't think online mode is sufficient to get a good grasp of how horrible this matchup is offline. Online I drop the uair combo all the time because it is a lot more difficult/impossible to react to DI . So i really don't think me playing you online will convince you of anything. But be assured that offline no competent MK will drop this combo on Samus, no matter how you DI, that is just how it is.
The matchup is pretty bad, but i don't think it is the worst matchup in the game. It is most certainly winnable, but Samus has to outplay MK very very hard. I don't know that much about Samus other matchups but I could totally see it as her worst.
Scream not sure if I'm comfortable with that whole bounty thing but whatever.

 

[White_Pointer]

There are certainly better Samus mains on here than me, but here is my list for what it's worth. I don't see Samus as having many MU's that are decisively in her advantage, but I do consider a lot of MU's even.

Bowser +
Bowser Jr 0
Captain Falcon 0
Charizard 0
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong 0
Duck Hunt -
Falco -
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch -
Ganondorf +
Greninja 0
Ike 0
Jigglypuff -
King Dedede 0
Kirby -
Link 0
Little Mac +
Lucario 0
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth 0
Lucina 0
Metaknight -
Ness -
Olimar -
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach 0
Zelda 0
R.O.B. -
Robin +
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link -
Villager -
Wario -
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus 0
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu -
Roy 0
Mewtwo -
Lucas -
Brawler -
Swordfighter 0
Gunner 0

 

[DungeonMaster]

Kweet no problem, and no pressure.

 

[DanishButrCookies]

Bowser -
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon +
Charizard 0
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong 0
Duck Hunt -
Falco +
Fox +
Mr. Game & Watch -
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike 0
Jigglypuff 0
King Dedede 0
Kirby 0
Link 0
Little Mac +
Lucario -
Luigi +
Mario 0
Dr. Mario 0
Marth 0
Lucina +
Metaknight -
Ness 0
Olimar -
Palutena 0
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach 0
Zelda +
R.O.B. -
Robin 0
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman -
Pacman 0
Sonic 0
Ryu 0
Roy 0
Mewtwo 0
Lucas 0
Brawler 0
Swordfighter +
Gunner 0

 

[White_Pointer]

Pika and MK are our worst MUs by a long shot.

I'd add Mewtwo in that list as well. Yes, Mewtwo is bad, in the running for worst character in the game in fact, but I see the matchup as terrible for Samus, borderline unwinnable even assuming two players of equal skill. I'll be interested to know from the guys that are ranking this MU as favourable for Samus (which is quite a few by the looks of things, so I may be in the minority) why they believe this, because outside of zair I can't see any way Samus can approach Mewtwo. I'd love to be wrong and be shown the light because this MU is immensely frustrating for me.

 

[Xygonn]

I'd add Mewtwo in that list as well. Yes, Mewtwo is bad, in the running for worst character in the game in fact, but I see the matchup as terrible for Samus, borderline unwinnable even assuming two players of equal skill. I'll be interested to know from the guys that are ranking this MU as favourable for Samus (which is quite a few by the looks of things, so I may be in the minority) why they believe this, because outside of zair I can't see any way Samus can approach Mewtwo. I'd love to be wrong and be shown the light because this MU is immensely frustrating for me.

Zair is all you need.

 

[Scream]

I'd add Mewtwo in that list as well. Yes, Mewtwo is bad, in the running for worst character in the game in fact, but I see the matchup as terrible for Samus, borderline unwinnable even assuming two players of equal skill. I'll be interested to know from the guys that are ranking this MU as favourable for Samus (which is quite a few by the looks of things, so I may be in the minority) why they believe this, because outside of zair I can't see any way Samus can approach Mewtwo. I'd love to be wrong and be shown the light because this MU is immensely frustrating for me.

Samus wins the MU with Zair alone.
There is absolutely no reason to approach at all.
Keep CS charged and blast him if he decides to spam shadow balls.
On top of that he is very light and dies of a bair/cs extremely early, while samus lives even upthrow for a good amount of time.
Upsmash also connects on him standing, which is a nice plus.

 

[Jman3]

This is my opinion of how I think the matchups work. I am somewhat limited of knowledge in some of these matchups and I up for changes if someone wants to debate.

////////////******
Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon -
Charizard +
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong -
Duck Hunt 0
Falco +
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf +
Greninja 0
Ike +
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby -
Link 0
Little Mac -
Lucario -
Luigi -
Mario -
Dr. Mario +
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight -
Ness -
Olimar +
Palutena +
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit -
Peach +
Zelda +
R.O.B. 0
Robin 0
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link +
Villager -
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer +
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman -
Pacman +
Sonic 0
Ryu -
Roy -
Mewtwo +
Lucas 0
Brawler +
Swordfighter +
Gunner +
******//////////

 

[Zareidriel]

Voting closes tomorrow at midnight. Get those ballots in!

 

[Hark17ball]

Can I jump the gun and say - for Cloud?? Hahaha

 

[DungeonMaster]

Can I jump the gun and say - for Cloud?? Hahaha

It's not good enough to have 5 frame multiplicative reflectors pretty much in half the cast, he specifically designs moves to go completely around them and combo from it (cute!).
Trying to understand his thought process is just baffling. 20 frames of startup, full second of endlag, totally predictable path, physical projectile that can be cut out of the air but clearly missiles are so good they need MORE counters.
Even in his intro, Samus throws a missile, like it's some sort of threat?! It really makes you wonder - does he even KNOW what he designed?
As a funny aside, the game VGA planets 3, from where I re-used my moniker, we always wondered if the guy who designed it was some sort of genius. The numbers were very well chosen, the strategy very (very) deep. VGA planets 4, total flop. Finally we got to see the game creator play the game (version 3, the good one), and he understood the game he created at only the most rudimentary level, the top level players literally obliterated him to his confusion.
So the moral of the story is lightning does strike randomly and occasionally it's the very good advice of an unsung advisor - not the game creator - that makes the game.

 

[ChoZoX]

0
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[Afro Smash]

Not one positive MU?

 

[Scream]

Dont do this to me ChoZoX...

You were the chosen one! You were supposed to bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness!

I really hope you are not serious. Have you given up on Bae?

 

[White_Pointer]

Not one positive MU?

And only 13 even MU's including the ditto?

I didn't expect that out of Chozox.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

+
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[KayJay]

Ohhh Ellipsis you think we have an advantage over G&W. You have no idea, at high lvl play this matchup is on metaknight lvl.
2 Bombs bucket, you may die at 0%. One Charge Shot bucket, you die at 0% (D-Throw -> Down B and you are dead at 0%, you can't DI or Jump/Airdodge out). His hurtbox is small, his disjointed aerials beat ours. SH N-Air/D-Air/B-Air doesn't hit him. His throw combos work on us at like any % but he can even DI D-Throw to F-Air. We can't really edgeguard him but he can edgeguard us pretty good. Our kill options are bad against him, CS is too risky, he can duck under SH FF B-Air and he can space his aerials so he won't get hit by OoS Up B. Just sayin'.

G&W is totally underrated in general, I can see him at least as an A-Tier.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

I'm aware of those problems. I still stand by my vote.

 

[Hapajin]

DanishButrCookies curious about your opinion on the spacies match-up. What makes the match-up positive in Samus' favor?

 

[DanishButrCookies]

Well let me start with the obvious, her edge guarding game. Samus can keep Fox and Falco from horizontally recovering with missiles, charge shots, forward tilts, jabs, up tilts, and even aerials if you're commit to it. The second they're off stage, they're done. Vertically, you can stage spike them with bair pretty easily, and if you got the read on the angle then down air.

I also find this match up to be really mind game heavy due to making Fox and Falco commit to reflect, shield, or dodge Samus's projectiles and you capitalize on there commitment. I think it's safe to say it's pretty easy to avoid shooting your charge shot in the face of an opponent that can react with reflect. I sometimes bait the reflect with missile, and punish with grab, and sometimes if they're off stage and they let go, I'll ironically punish it with a charge shot.

I also think they're fall speeds make them easy combo material, I mean on Battlefield the 0-death combo is free if they get grabbed and miss only one tech. Missile resetting them on platforms is a dream.
I also think that the lack of their projectiles and heavy spacing game makes them more susceptible to OOS Up-B.

Just to be clear, there's a lot more to this, and these are just some positives but I haven't listed the negatives. In all honesty, the Samus vs Falco matchup IMO is 60-40, vs Fox it's 55-45, both in Samus's favor.

 

[Zareidriel]

Zareidriel Samus votes tallied

 

[Xygonn]

Zareidriel Samus votes tallied

What a tease. I saw the alert and thought I was gonna see the chart.