Matchup Chart Project 2015 - Calling Mewtwo Mains!

[Zareidriel]

Hello Mewtwo boards,

I'm Zareidriel. Over in this thread a guy called Assassannerr made a matchup chart, and asked people to help fill it out. It seems like it would be a cool thing to have. With once glance you could have a rough idea of a matchup. It won't be perfect, but for our first go at it in 2015 we're aiming for "somewhat functional."

So here's what I'm going to do. Go to every Character Discussion board, and ask the folks there if they wouldn't mind contributing. To submit one vote, you'll have to fill out one of these:

////////////******
Bowser
Bowser Jr
Captain Falcon
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Duck Hunt
Falco
Fox
Mr. Game & Watch
Ganondorf
Greninja
Ike
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Kirby
Link
Little Mac
Lucario
Luigi
Mario
Dr. Mario
Marth
Lucina
Metaknight
Ness
Olimar
Palutena
Pikachu
Pit & Dark Pit
Peach
Zelda
R.O.B.
Robin
Rosalina
Samus
Sheik
Shulk
Toon Link
Villager
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
Yoshi
Zero Suit Samus
Megaman
Pacman
Sonic
Ryu
Roy
Mewtwo
Lucas
Brawler
Swordfighter
Gunner
******//////////


Mark each character with a + for a match where Mewtwo HAS THE ADVANTAGE
Mark each character with a - for a match where Mewtwo HAS THE DISADVANTAGE
Mark each character with a number 0 for a match you feel is very even.

NOTE THAT I AM ONLY TAKING VOTES FROM MEMBERS WITH Mewtwo IN THEIR PROFILE BAR. It can be as either "Wii U Main" or "3DS Main". But if Mewtwo is in neither one of those slots when I count the votes on Friday, Nov 13, it won't be counted.

(Yes, for the avid democrats out there, that means you can vote for one other character as well.)

Like I said, they won't be perfect, and each board will probably be a little biased toward their own respective character. But the results should be interesting regardless.

If this thing is successful maybe we'll do a revised version in 2016.

Thanks very much for participating! We need as many votes as possible for each character so please submit a ballot!

 

[meleebrawler]

////////////******
Bowser +
Bowser Jr 0
Captain Falcon -
Charizard 0
Diddy Kong 0
Donkey Kong 0
Duck Hunt 0
Falco +
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch -
Ganondorf +
Greninja 0
Ike -
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby +
Link 0
Little Mac 0
Lucario +
Luigi +
Mario -
Dr. Mario +
Marth 0
Lucina 0
Metaknight -
Ness 0
Olimar 0
Palutena 0
Pikachu 0
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach 0
Zelda +
R.O.B. 0
Robin +
Rosalina 0
Samus +
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager 0
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi 0
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic 0
Ryu -
Roy 0
Mewtwo 0
Lucas 0
Brawler 0
Swordfighter +
Gunner 0
******//////////


Is this right?

 

[Zareidriel]

Exactamundo, my friend.

 

[Browny]

NOTE THAT I AM ONLY TAKING VOTES FROM MEMBERS WITH Mewtwo IN THEIR PROFILE BAR. It can be as either "Wii U Main" or "3DS Main". But if Mewtwo is in neither one of those slots when I count the votes on Friday, Nov 13, it won't be counted.

This is bad and you should feel bad. What people put as their icon does not validate their opinion at all and refusing to accept votes from people that dont list that particular icon is a dumb idea. I actually play Jigglypuff a lot but I wouldnt say shes my best character (its pretty hard for her to be anyones best character...), doesnt mean I dont have decent experience with her.

Bowser 0
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon -
Charizard 0
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong -
Duck Hunt 0
Falco +
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf 0
Greninja 0
Ike -
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede 0
Kirby 0
Link 0
Little Mac 0
Lucario 0
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight 0 (I'm not convinced that Metaknights nonsense combo is guaranteed on Mewtwo, I manage to escape it more than I get hit by it. Its entirely possible the people I play against are awful, but still, I dont feel its guaranteed)
Ness -
Olimar 0
Palutena +
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach 0
Zelda +
R.O.B. -
Robin 0
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu 0
Roy 0
Mewtwo Swag
Lucas +
Brawler 0
Swordfighter 0
Gunner +

 

[meleebrawler]

This is bad and you should feel bad. What people put as their icon does not validate their opinion at all and refusing to accept votes from people that dont list that particular icon is a dumb idea. I actually play Jigglypuff a lot but I wouldnt say shes my best character (its pretty hard for her to be anyones best character...), doesnt mean I dont have decent experience with her.

Bowser 0
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon -
Charizard 0
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong -
Duck Hunt 0
Falco +
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf 0
Greninja 0
Ike -
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede 0
Kirby 0
Link 0
Little Mac 0
Lucario 0
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight 0 (I'm not convinced that Metaknights nonsense combo is guaranteed on Mewtwo, I manage to escape it more than I get hit by it. Its entirely possible the people I play against are awful, but still, I dont feel its guaranteed)
Ness -
Olimar 0
Palutena +
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach 0
Zelda +
R.O.B. -
Robin 0
Rosalina -
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk +
Toon Link 0
Villager -
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu 0
Roy 0
Mewtwo Swag
Lucas +
Brawler 0
Swordfighter 0
Gunner +

Is it OK if I just post a few quibbles I have with this list?

I just don't think Ness's bthrow and uair (two leading causes of death for Mewtwo here) are enough to tip the balance in his favour against Mewtwo's superior mobility and spacing. They do enough to keep it even alongside Ness's anti-shadow ball tools, but a smart Mewtwo won't make them easy to land.

Said anti-shadow ball tools are also why I wouldn't write off Lucas so easily. He's a rather tough nut to crack defensively, and his ability to space with zair and PK Fire plus not being as gimpable more than make up for not being as intimidating on the offence as Ness.

Finally I don't see how Mewtwo abuses Shulk's poor frame data enough to put it in Mewtwo's favour, as he's otherwise just as capable of spacing and killing as Mewtwo, plus his arts can help him avoid shadow balls.

 

[Browny]

I'm not afraid of shulk because his neutral is awful.

All you have to do is wait for him to make a mistake because everything he does is punishable and about the only mix-up he cant do that isnt punishable on block, is speed-mode and going for a grab or a cross-up nair.

Nair he can't follow up on, so who cares if its safe on block and his grab/throws are all mediocre with no follow ups. If shulk isnt in speed mode, he cant force you to do ANYTHING because no approach he has is truly safe vs Mewtwo.

Shulk is super-susceptible to full charge shadowballs with his bad landing options. Expect a counter, and then throw him.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm not afraid of shulk because his neutral is awful.

All you have to do is wait for him to make a mistake because everything he does is punishable and about the only mix-up he cant do that isnt punishable on block, is speed-mode and going for a grab or a cross-up nair.

Nair he can't follow up on, so who cares if its safe on block and his grab/throws are all mediocre with no follow ups. If shulk isnt in speed mode, he cant force you to do ANYTHING because no approach he has is truly safe vs Mewtwo.

Shulk is super-susceptible to full charge shadowballs with his bad landing options. Expect a counter, and then throw him.

Pre-shieldstun patch maybe, but now punishing Shulk's properly spaced stuff is harder than it sounds with Mewtwo's mediocre OOS options, especially if he employs Buster, in which he DOES have throw combos. And even if he's in a mode that doesn't let him follow up, bthrow still does a good chunk of damage.

Then there's Jump, which does let him get followups from bair sometimes, or he could just land and grab you instead if you were anticipating that nair. In this situation he does get 50-50s that can let him kill.

Most top tiers can circumvent all of this by abusing Shulk's poor startups and never giving him a chance to breathe, but I don't see Mewtwo applying that kind of pressure, and in the meantime he's just as capable at spacing.

 

[Browny]

He still cant force anything.

Hes like ganondorf, he cant force you to do anything. He can punish you for your poor choice, but he cant force it. he cant stand half way across the stage and do something which makes you shield, and then hit you for doing it.

Its like Villager vs someone without a reflector. When he uses Lloid, he forces you to shield, jump or dodge it. This opens you up to his powerful grab, his amazing aerials or any correct punish on a dodge.

You need to treat Shulk like that. Realise that when making an approach, shulk has to contend with the fact that you can counter his approaches with an attack of your own. This is a very big difference to countering an approach with a defensive option. The fact that you can counter his approaches with your own attacks (shadowball, confusion, usmash maybe) turns things massively in your favour and this is why Shulk is not a good character competitively.

Countering an approach with an attack is a godly combination in smash. This is why Shoryuken is so good.

 

[meleebrawler]

He still cant force anything.

Hes like ganondorf, he cant force you to do anything. He can punish you for your poor choice, but he cant force it. he cant stand half way across the stage and do something which makes you shield, and then hit you for doing it.

Its like Villager vs someone without a reflector. When he uses Lloid, he forces you to shield, jump or dodge it. This opens you up to his powerful grab, his amazing aerials or any correct punish on a dodge.

You need to treat Shulk like that. Realise that when making an approach, shulk has to contend with the fact that you can counter his approaches with an attack of your own. This is a very big difference to countering an approach with a defensive option. The fact that you can counter his approaches with your own attacks (shadowball, confusion, usmash maybe) turns things massively in your favour and this is why Shulk is not a good character competitively.

Countering an approach with an attack is a godly combination in smash. This is why Shoryuken is so good.

Well neither can Ike but he's doing pretty good for himself. Or DK, Falcon, or even Sonic though the latter two do have speed to help out. And so does Shulk when he uses Speed or Jump. He's considered a poor character not just because his frame data is bad, but he generally isn't as consistently rewarding as the likes of Ike.

Meeting his attacks with your own is all well and good, but it isn't that easy to do consistently because not only does he actually outrange us for the most part, the attacks are completely disjointed too, unlike our tail. It's not a particularly tough matchup but I am more wary of him than Ganondorf because he DOES have mixups and means to land a grab. Underestimate him at your own risk.

 

[Zareidriel]

I appreciate the enthusiasm, fellows, and don't mind a little vote discussion, but let's stay on topic shall we?

 

[Browny]

I appreciate the enthusiasm, fellows, and don't mind a little vote discussion, but let's stay on topic shall we?

>In a matchup chart thread
>People discussing matchups
>Get asked to stay on topic

ok

 

[Zareidriel]

Yeah you're probably right, sorry >_>

 

[meleebrawler]

If people ask why Mewtwo's matchups look better than they think, let it be known it was because only two people voted for him.

 

[Sonicninja115]

If people ask why Mewtwo's matchups look better than they think, let it be known it was because only two people voted for him.

On it, I will say On Paper for the MU's that I am not as familiar with in Sm4sh.

Shulk wins or evens. It is pretty easy to see. MALLC closes the punish options, and allows him to be completely safe. Buster Nair is safe on shield now.

Gimping isn't in Mewtwo's favor because of Jump art.

Buster into Smash can kill Mewtwo easy.

It isn't far in Shulks favor, approximately 55/45 shulks favor.

Edit: Not going to do it, I thought the window was a lot larger then it was.

 

[LRodC]

MU charts for Mewtwo are still getting submitted due to so little of them beforehand. If you haven't submitted one, feel free to do so.

////////////******
Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon -
Charizard 0
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong 0
Duck Hunt 0
Falco +
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch -
Ganondorf +
Greninja -
Ike 0
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby -
Link 0
Little Mac 0
Lucario 0
Luigi 0
Mario -
Dr. Mario 0
Marth 0
Lucina 0
Metaknight -
Ness 0
Olimar -
Palutena +
Pikachu -
Pit & Dark Pit 0
Peach -
Zelda +
R.O.B. -
Robin +
Rosalina 0
Samus +
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link 0
Villager 0
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu 0
Roy 0
Mewtwo 0
Lucas -
Brawler 0
Swordfighter 0
Gunner +
******//////////

Can someone explain to me why the Kirby match up is even or possibly in Mewtwo's favor? If I get good reasoning, I might consider changing it.

 

[Zareidriel]

Zareidriel Mewtwo votes tallied

 

[Yonder]

Honestly, I think the mus might be different enough to warrant more favorable/even matchups after the patch, might need to do a revote, imo.

 

[Zareidriel]

Alas, all things have their point in time, and as long as patches keep incoming (please oh please all praise be to blessed based Sakurai) the Matchup Chart will always be out-of-date. We'll have to wait until next year to include the buffed version of Mewtwo. Same goes for Robin, we got a nice tasty little buff but it's not going to come into play this time. Besides, it takes a while to see exactly how and how much a buff or nerf really changes a character's matchups. The 2016 version will at least include all characters, if not the final patched state of the game. I would prefer patches did not cease, but if I had to venture a guess I think they'll be stopping this year sometime.

 

[LRodC]

Yeah, the buffs definitely push a lot of his previous bad or even match ups into even or positive ones. Let's see what happens.

 

[Browny]

Alas, all things have their point in time, and as long as patches keep incoming (please oh please all praise be to blessed based Sakurai) the Matchup Chart will always be out-of-date. We'll have to wait until next year to include the buffed version of Mewtwo. Same goes for Robin, we got a nice tasty little buff but it's not going to come into play this time. Besides, it takes a while to see exactly how and how much a buff or nerf really changes a character's matchups. The 2016 version will at least include all characters, if not the final patched state of the game. I would prefer patches did not cease, but if I had to venture a guess I think they'll be stopping this year sometime.

Next year?

The final patch comes out in February and literally nothing is stopping you from doing new rounds of votes. Waiting an idea year is just... pointless.

 

[Zareidriel]

There is no evidence to indicate the Bayonetta/Corrin patch will be the final balance patch. Only that they are the final DLC. And doing so would be silly, since Bayonetta and Corrin would never get a balance patch. I guarantee that's something Sakurai would like to avoid. I would agree if you said the last patch might be sometime this year, but I could never agree that the Febuary patch will be the final one.

Furthermore, as the metagame changes, I plan to make a more and more accurate Matchup Chart every single year, for as long as I play Smash 4. Febuary's metagame will be different than November's.

There are several other reasons as well, actually, but that should suffice...

 

[Zarxrax]

I would probably expect that the final DLC patch will also be the final balance patch UNLESS there is something completely broken on the new characters. I mean, they probably aren't going to keep a staff of developers working on a game just to make sure its balanced. That's really expensive, and it doesn't really convert into new revenue. Right now they are balancing the game because there are still working on new stuff anyways.

 

[Aninymouse]

I would probably expect that the final DLC patch will also be the final balance patch UNLESS there is something completely broken on the new characters. I mean, they probably aren't going to keep a staff of developers working on a game just to make sure its balanced. That's really expensive, and it doesn't really convert into new revenue. Right now they are balancing the game because there are still working on new stuff anyways.

What you're saying might be true. Sad thing is, we're never really gonna know unless they tell us or... enough time expires to where the answer becomes apparent.

 

[Browny]

There is no evidence to indicate the Bayonetta/Corrin patch will be the final balance patch. Only that they are the final DLC. And doing so would be silly, since Bayonetta and Corrin would never get a balance patch. I guarantee that's something Sakurai would like to avoid. I would agree if you said the last patch might be sometime this year, but I could never agree that the Febuary patch will be the final one.

Furthermore, as the metagame changes, I plan to make a more and more accurate Matchup Chart every single year, for as long as I play Smash 4. Febuary's metagame will be different than November's.

There are several other reasons as well, actually, but that should suffice...

Fine, but a year is too much, too much changes.

I mean, the full roster isn't even out. Locking in a match-up chart for 10 months without the full roster would be a bit odd, don't you think?

 

[Aninymouse]

Fine, but a year is too much, too much changes.

I mean, the full roster isn't even out. Locking in a match-up chart for 10 months without the full roster would be a bit odd, don't you think?

More like useless.

If we don't redo this in the Spring, we ought to at least do it in Summer.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

And here I thought we didn't have a matchup thread.

 

[Chiroz]

Lol at MK combo not being guaranteed when Mewtwo is like the 4th easiest char to land it on.

Kirby a positive matchup? How? I get that he isn't the hardest matchup ever but I don't think it's in Mewtwo's favor at all.



Also how is Greninja even? He has almost everything needed to be a nightmare for Mewtwo. Have you guys played a good Greninja?



Anyways, when this reopens I might share my opinion on all matchups.

 

[Aninymouse]

Also how is Greninja even? He has almost everything needed to be a nightmare for Mewtwo. Have you guys played a good Greninja?

No, I haven't, and most other people haven't either. A good Greninja player is quite rare. Most regions are lucky to have one notable Greninja user... based on tournament videos I've seen over the past few months, only Gibus comes to mind in Texas.

Smash 4 has a ****ing enormous roster at 58. Most local tournaments that are big enough to get recorded might see anywhere from 30-100 people or so. With a sample that size, a large chunk of the unpopular (not bad, but unpopular) characters are MIA.

Compared to characters like Greninja, Lucario, Bowser Jr., Duck Hunt, Roy, Marth, Samus, Link, Bowser, etc., Mewtwo is a superstar. Why do I say that? Mewtwo is showing up in a lot of local regions and doing well. While those others might do well when they show up, the fact is they barely show up.

I honestly have no clue what Greninja:Mewtwo looks like, other than Gibus beating Mew² quite often, because I have no frame of reference. It's quite literally a rare matchup.

There's no need to be passive aggressive.

 

[Chiroz]

No, I haven't, and most other people haven't either. A good Greninja player is quite rare. Most regions are lucky to have one notable Greninja user... based on tournament videos I've seen over the past few months, only Gibus comes to mind in Texas.

Smash 4 has a ****ing enormous roster at 58. Most local tournaments that are big enough to get recorded might see anywhere from 30-100 people or so. With a sample that size, a large chunk of the unpopular (not bad, but unpopular) characters are MIA.

Compared to characters like Greninja, Lucario, Bowser Jr., Duck Hunt, Roy, Marth, Samus, Link, Bowser, etc., Mewtwo is a superstar. Why do I say that? Mewtwo is showing up in a lot of local regions and doing well. While those others might do well when they show up, the fact is they barely show up.

I honestly have no clue what Greninja:Mewtwo looks like, other than Gibus beating Mew² quite often, because I have no frame of reference. It's quite literally a rare matchup.

There's no need to be passive aggressive.

I mean in general Greninja is just very fast and has decent frame data. There isn't much from Mewtwo's kit that Greninja fears. He can just run up and grab us. IMO Greninja is a mix between Falcon and ZSS and we know both to be bad matchups for Mewtwo. Greninja is also the shortest char in the game, and we all know what that means for Mewtwo.

I won't claim I know the Greninja matchup either, because I don't, but just from a analysis perspective I would say it's probably easy for Greninja to beat us.



The problem with an idea like this is that if everyone just posts random info then the info will never be close to accurate. I didn't mean to be offensive if that's how it came out to be. I don't think this matchup chart will be accurate outside of the obvious good/bad matchups which are obvious anyways. It's the problem with being a non-popular char I guess.

 

[Aninymouse]

This match-up chart was never accurate, even before 1.1.3, for a couple reasons. If you had read the entire thread, you would have seen that it was mentioned that 1.1.3 invalidated this entire thread, but that OP didn't care. Likewise, the match-ups were randomly decided by random people who might not even play the game.

Bad form for Zard lover Doom Desire to bump this thread.

Even today, though, there are a lot of Mewtwo match-ups that are very unexplored. Even characters like Sheik and ZSS don't have 100% reliable match-up charts because of the sheer size of the roster and the rarity that certain characters are used by skilled players. How much more theorycraft do you you think is applied for an underused character like Mewtwo? Too much.

Basically, we've analyzed (barely) Mewtwo vs. Sonic, Rosalina, Sheik, Bowser. That's it. We still have 54 match-ups to go, and patches are still incoming. Yes, Mewtwo players have their own opinions: just yesterday we were disagreeing on if Mewtwo beats Ness or struggles with Ness. So as you can see, without detailed analysis AND cooperation from mains of other characters, Mewtwo's metagame is largely unexplored territory.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Bad form for Zard lover Doom Desire to bump this thread.

Ah, Smashboards...

 

[Aninymouse]

Can we just lock this thread in order to stop the spread and discussion of misinformation?

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Can we just lock this thread in order to stop the spread and discussion of misinformation?

That's just stupid, as far as I've seen, we don't have another matchup thread. Unless you count the locked one.

 

[Aninymouse]

That's just stupid, as far as I've seen, we don't have another matchup thread. Unless you count the locked one.

We have a match-up discussion thread on the front page, right below this post.

This thread is outdated.

 

[Chiroz]

That's just stupid, as far as I've seen, we don't have another matchup thread. Unless you count the locked one.

We're discussing matchups 1 by 1. There's no other real way of analyzing a matchup. The only other solution is doing what was done on this thread, but the problem with that is that it leads to random opinions and no basis behind those opinions.



Edit: I think a thread like this isn't exactly bad. We should all come up with +/- and then discuss why someone thinks something is a - or a +.

In depth analysis is obviously better but it takes too much time. There are certain matchups were we know what's up, but for those that we don't we can just look at other people's list and ask them: How so?

 

[Aninymouse]

The problem is, OP only counted votes for a short time.

Also, a massive list of pluses and minuses is too arbitrary and low-effort. Match-ups should be discussed at length with proof, data, and reasoning.

If I just come in here and say Mewtwo beats Ness and Rosalina and that's it... how is that helpful? How can anyone tell if my opinion is informed or not? What prevents the person who doesn't even play Mewtwo from skewing results?

This is why I feel this is a poor thread.

 

[KieRanaRan]

////////////******
Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon -
Charizard +
Diddy Kong 0
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt +
Falco 0
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf 0
Greninja +
Ike 0
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby +
Link 0
Little Mac +
Lucario +
Luigi 0
Mario +
Dr. Mario +
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight 0
Ness +
Olimar +
Palutena +
Pikachu 0
Pit & Dark Pit +
Peach 0
Zelda +
R.O.B. 0
Robin +
Rosalina 0
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link -
Villager +
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu -
Roy +
Mewtwo 0
Lucas +
Brawler +
Swordfighter +
Gunner +
******//////////

 

[420quickscoper]

////////////******
Bowser +
Bowser Jr +
Captain Falcon -
Charizard +
Diddy Kong 0
Donkey Kong +
Duck Hunt +
Falco 0
Fox -
Mr. Game & Watch 0
Ganondorf 0
Greninja +
Ike 0
Jigglypuff +
King Dedede +
Kirby +
Link 0
Little Mac +
Lucario +
Luigi 0
Mario +
Dr. Mario +
Marth +
Lucina +
Metaknight 0
Ness +
Olimar +
Palutena +
Pikachu 0
Pit & Dark Pit +
Peach 0
Zelda +
R.O.B. 0
Robin +
Rosalina 0
Samus 0
Sheik -
Shulk 0
Toon Link -
Villager +
Wario 0
Wii Fit Trainer 0
Yoshi -
Zero Suit Samus -
Megaman 0
Pacman 0
Sonic -
Ryu -
Roy +
Mewtwo 0
Lucas +
Brawler +
Swordfighter +
Gunner +
******//////////

Why do you think we win against DK, Ness and Greninja? Those seem to be rather negative matchups, especially Greninja.
Also, why do we think we lose to Ryu?

 

[Chiroz]

Why do you think we win against DK, Ness and Greninja? Those seem to be rather negative matchups, especially Greninja.
Also, why do we think we lose to Ryu?

Aside from Ness whom I've never found hard or easy to fight against (I would say the matchup is even), I agree with everything stated here.

 

[420quickscoper]

Aside from Ness whom I've never found hard or easy to fight against (I would say the matchup is even), I agree with everything stated here.

So you also agree with Ryu not winning against Mewtwo? I have a pretty good list of reasons to why he may go even against us or may even lose against us.

I've fought a few competent Ryus and he's way easier than a lot of MUs like MK or ZSS.