Matchup Chart Project 2015 - Calling Mewtwo Mains!

[Mo433]

Lol at MK combo not being guaranteed when Mewtwo is like the 4th easiest char to land it on.

Kirby a positive matchup? How? I get that he isn't the hardest matchup ever but I don't think it's in Mewtwo's favor at all.



Also how is Greninja even? He has almost everything needed to be a nightmare for Mewtwo. Have you guys played a good Greninja?



Anyways, when this reopens I might share my opinion on all matchups.

I'm confident Mewtwo loses to Greninja, but at the same time Mewtwo beats Kirby pretty hard.

Kirby has no range, and slow mobility. He is absolutely no threat at mid range, and can be stringed by Fair quite easily. In the air, Kirby is still left with few options, because of his really slow air speed. Off stage, Kirby does have the great ability to edge guard, but with Mewtwo's excellent air dodge it's quite hard for Kirby to capitalize from it.

The MU probably becomes even once Kirby uses the copy ability to get Shadow Ball, since Kirby gets a decent projectile of his own.

 

[Chiroz]

So you also agree with Ryu not winning against Mewtwo? I have a pretty good list of reasons to why he may go even against us or may even lose against us.

I've fought a few competent Ryus and he's way easier than a lot of MUs like MK or ZSS.

Yes, I agree Mewtwo is a good pick vs Ryu, at least from my own experience.

 

[Chiroz]

I'm confident Mewtwo loses to Greninja, but at the same time Mewtwo beats Kirby pretty hard.

Kirby has no range, and slow mobility. He is absolutely no threat at mid range, and can be stringed by Fair quite easily. In the air, Kirby is still left with few options, because of his really slow air speed. Off stage, Kirby does have the great ability to edge guard, but with Mewtwo's excellent air dodge it's quite hard for Kirby to capitalize from it.

The MU probably becomes even once Kirby uses the copy ability to get Shadow Ball, since Kirby gets a decent projectile of his own.

Mewtwo can't land almost any combos on Kirby past 30% at all, plus getting a kill on Kirby is incredibly hard unless he's just jumping aimlessly since his size helps him avoid more than half our kit.

I believe you're trying to just jump in and attack instead of playing the matchup much more ground based. Kirby gets really good conversions out of his grabs against us and his D-Tilt reaches just as long as ours and leads into a grab (when it trips).

He also has pretty easy time landing a kill since basically all of his aerials will lead into a guaranteed kill (B-Air and U-Air will just outright kill us).

In this matchup just approach slowly (as Kirby) and use ducking, a lot, to avoid everything but Down-Smash and Down-Tilt. Obviously if the Kirby just tries to "For Glory" us with his mindless Down-Air/F-Air -> Combo bread and butter Mewtwo can avoid that easily, but a good Kirby won't be doing that anyways since Kirby has so much better options in this matchup. Saying he doesn't have air mobility doesn't mean much when he can beat us on the ground.



I use to play this matchup often with a friend that I beat 100% of the time. Kirby was one of the hardest chars he used (even though I beat him) because the way he ducked and moves (on the ground) literally neutered Mewtwo's COMPLETE kit except for Fully Charged Shadow Balls (which require charging), Confusion and D-Tilt. No other move (but D-Smash, which shouldn't be thrown nilly willy in neutral) would land.

 

[Mo433]

Mewtwo can't land almost any combos on Kirby at all, plus getting a kill on Kirby is incredibly hard unless he's just jumping aimlessly since his size helps him avoid more than half our kit.

I believe you're trying to just jump in and attack instead of playing the matchup much more ground based. Kirby gets really good conversions out of his grabs against us and his D-Tilt reaches just as long as ours and leads into a grab (when it trips).

He also has pretty easy time landing a kill since basically all of his aerials will lead into a guaranteed kill (B-Air and U-Air will just outright kill us).

In this matchup just approach slowly (as Kirby) and use ducking, a lot, to avoid everything but Down-Smash and Down-Tilt. Obviously if the Kirby just tries to "For Glory" us with his mindless Down-Air/F-Air -> Combo bread and butter Mewtwo can avoid that easily, but a good Kirby won't be doing that anyways since Kirby has so much better options in this matchup.



I use to play this matchup often with a friend that I beat 100% of the time. Kirby was one of the hardest chars he used (even though I beat him) because the way he ducked and moves (on the ground) literally neutered Mewtwo's COMPLETE kit except for Fully Charged Shadow Balls (which require charging), Confusion and D-Tilt. No other move (but D-Smash, which shouldn't be thrown nilly willy in neutral) would land.

Landing the kill is hard on Kirby, but it's even harder for Kirby to kill Mewtwo. Kirby literally can't do anything to make you approach him. Ducking does work well against Mewtwo, if you're a player that does nothing but go for dash attacks and grab. Even if Kirby does approach slowly, Mewtwo still has options to keep him out.

Mewtwo's fair alone out ranges almost all of Kirby's aerials, and is safe on shield.

I've played this MU a lot with many great Kirby players, and a lot of them think Mewtwo has the advantage.

 

[Chiroz]

Landing the kill is hard on Kirby, but it's even harder for Kirby to kill Mewtwo. Kirby literally can't do anything to make you approach him. Ducking does work well against Mewtwo, if you're a player that does nothing but go for dash attacks and grab. Even if Kirby does approach slowly, Mewtwo still has options to keep him out.

Mewtwo's fair alone out ranges almost all of Kirby's aerials, and is safe on shield.

I've played this MU a lot with many great Kirby players, and a lot of them think Mewtwo has the advantage.

Why are you talking abou aerials though? Kirby doesn't need to jump. Shadow Ball is bigger now so it might hit a ducking Kirby but what does Mewtwo have aside form charging Shadow Ball to almost full charge to make Kirby approach?

Kirby will most likely be living to 150%+ in a match where as Mewtwo will still die at 70-80% when Kirby has rage.

I don't think Kirby should be in the air at all, I would think is a matchup of just walking and ducking. Shadow Ball won't even hit until it's more than half way charge and Kirby's D-Tilt is not only just as long but it's like 5x more effective in this matchup.

Let me put it this way: What do you fear in neutral if you stay grounded? D-Tilt won't lead into combos and only deals 4%. Is it Confusion? Or just Mewtwo charging Shadow Ball?

 

[Mo433]

Why are you talking abou aerials though? Kirby doesn't need to jump. Shadow Ball is bigger now so it might hit a ducking Kirby but what does Mewtwo have aside form charging Shadow Ball to almost full charge to make Kirby approach?

Kirby will most likely be living to 150%+ in a match where as Mewtwo will still die at 70-80% when Kirby has rage.

I don't think Kirby should be in the air at all, I would think is a matchup of just walking and ducking. Shadow Ball won't even hit until it's more than half way charge and Kirby's D-Tilt is not only just as long but it's like 5x more effective in this matchup.

Let me put it this way: What do you fear in neutral if you stay grounded? D-Tilt won't lead into combos and only deals 4%. Is it Confusion? Or just Mewtwo charging Shadow Ball?

I keep mentioning aerials because grounded, Kirby can't do much to make Mewtwo fear him. Mewtwo has all the tools to keep Kirby from approaching him on the ground.

Duck is good, but it doesn't make Mewtwo hopeless on the ground. As a Mewtwo player, you just have to keep exploiting Kirby's slow mobility and make him come to you.

Down tilt to up air is something that still works well on Kirby at higher percents too, which puts Kirbt back in the air.

I also use Kirby, and I can say that one of his main methods of approach is run up and shield. Mewtwo is more than capable of taking a strategy like that.

 

[Chiroz]

I keep mentioning aerials because grounded, Kirby can't do much to make Mewtwo fear him. Mewtwo has all the tools to keep Kirby from approaching him on the ground.

Duck is good, but it doesn't make Mewtwo hopeless on the ground. As a Mewtwo player, you just have to keep exploiting Kirby's slow mobility and make him come to you.

Down tilt to up air is something that still works well on Kirby at higher percents too, which puts Kirbt back in the air.

I also use Kirby, and I can say that one of his main methods of approach is run up and shield. Mewtwo is more than capable of taking a strategy like that.

Kirby shouldn't be getting close enough to get hit by the combo hitbox of D-Tilt or by U-Tilt.



Let's go with your scenario.

Mewtwo runs up with shield. Kirby is ducking. Kirby spams D-Tilt on reaction while remaining ducked. What do you do as Mewtwo?

 

[Mo433]

Kirby shouldn't be getting close enough to get hit by the combo hitbox of D-Tilt or by U-Tilt.



Let's go with your scenario.

Mewtwo runs up with shield. Kirby is ducking. Kirby spams D-Tilt on reaction while remaining ducked. What do you do as Mewtwo?

Confusion works just fine.

My point is, as Mewtwo you have no reason to approach Kirby. Even when you DO approach as Mewtwo, he can still take advantage of Kirby with his confusion. If Kirby ducks, Mewtwo has a answer.

You stated yourself that Kirby shouldn't be close to Mewtwo to get hit by down tilt's sweet spot. If Kirby can't get in close what is he supposed to do?

Even if Kirby ducks and plays defensively, Mewtwo still has a answer.

As a Kirby user myself, I admit that ducking with Kirby is very good, but it doesn't make Kirby win a MU, especially if your opponent/character can play around it.

 

[Chiroz]

Confusion works just fine.

My point is, as Mewtwo you have no reason to approach Kirby. Even when you DO approach as Mewtwo, he can still take advantage of Kirby with his confusion. If Kirby ducks, Mewtwo has a answer.

You stated yourself that Kirby shouldn't be close to Mewtwo to get hit by down tilt's sweet spot. If Kirby can't get in close what is he supposed to do?

Even if Kirby ducks and plays defensively, Mewtwo still has a answer.

As a Kirby user myself, I admit that ducking with Kirby is very good, but it doesn't make Kirby win a MU, especially if your opponent/character can play around it.

Confusion gets you hit by the next D-Tilt.

Here's the thing: unless you power shield the D-Tilt you can only roll backwards. Do anything else and Kirby hits you with the next D-Tilt. Rolling backwards doesn't help you achieve anything either.

Kirby's D-Tilt has as much range as Mewtwo's D-Tilt, he just needs to get close to that range, no closer than that. Kirby's is faster and leads to 30% conversions, Mewtwo's will only deal 4% if it lands.

Any single time Mewtwo dashes you can just duck and either Dash Grab (if you're certain he will shield) or go with the extremely safe D-Tilt which can't be punished unless power shielded. There's 0 need for anything else.

Mewtwo should never be hittig you with Confusion unless you make a mistake. Why are you even shielding at all? There's 0 need for any of that.



I do not think Kirby is a counter to Mewtwo or anything close to that, but I definitely believe he has the advantage. Kirby has one answer that beats out every single approach Mewtwo has and has a legitimate way to approach Mewtwo if need be, albeit it requires patience.

Mewtwo has Shadow Balls (which, before 1.1.3, required Mewtwo to charge them 3/4th of the way to hit Kirby) to force Kirby to approach - that's about it.




Here's my scenario now:

Kirby has the % lead.

This Kirby has good reflexes and can perfect shield any Shadow Ball on reaction.

Kirby sits there ducking, waiting.

As Mewtwo how do you approach?



The only answer I've thought of is the same one as Kirby's. You approach slowly and spacing yourself as best as you can with D-Tilt and Confusion. But the problem is, Mewtwo's conversion out of that is 4% and 9%, plus Confusion lags like a ***** so you will be punished incredibly if the Kirby dodges it.

As I said doable, but who has the advantage there?

I normally resort to good D-Tilt spacing and just baiting punishes from my opponent to get my own punishes. Doing dash dances and then hitting Kirby's foot with an attack if he uses a tilt or just baiting out a grab and then punishing with my own, etc. But this has nothing to do with Mewtwo or Kirby, this a: "Me vs my Opponent" kind of thing. The fact that I have to rely on mindgames to actually play the matchup shows that it isn't exactly an "easy" matchup.

But maybe you have a different solution to this that I haven't thought about. I haven't honestly given it much thought. I would always win against my Kirby friend and I don't know any other Kirby's so it's not like I know every single scenario the matchup has to offer.

 

[Mo433]

Confusion gets you hit by the next D-Tilt.

Here's the thing: unless you power shield the D-Tilt you can only roll backwards. Do anything else and Kirby hits you with the next D-Tilt. Rolling backwards doesn't help you achieve anything either.

Kirby's D-Tilt has as much range as Mewtwo's D-Tilt, he just needs to get close to that range, no closer than that. Kirby's is faster and leads to 30% conversions, Mewtwo's will only deal 4% if it lands.

Any single time Mewtwo dashes you can just duck and either Dash Grab (if you're certain he will shield) or go with the extremely safe D-Tilt which can't be punished unless power shielded. There's 0 need for anything else.

Mewtwo should never be hittig you with Confusion unless you make a mistake. Why are you even shielding at all? There's 0 need for any of that.



I do not think Kirby is a counter to Mewtwo or anything close to that, but I definitely believe he has the advantage. Kirby has one answer that beats out every single approach Mewtwo has and has a legitimate way to approach Mewtwo if need be, albeit it requires patience.

Mewtwo has Shadow Balls (which, before 1.1.3, required Mewtwo to charge them 3/4th of the way to hit Kirby) to force Kirby to approach - that's about it.




Here's my scenario now:

Kirby has the % lead.

This Kirby has good reflexes and can perfect shield any Shadow Ball on reaction.

Kirby sits there ducking, waiting.

As Mewtwo how do you approach?



The only answer I've thought of is the same one as Kirby's. You approach slowly and spacing yourself as best as you can with D-Tilt and Confusion. But the problem is, Mewtwo's conversion out of that is 4% and 9%, plus Confusion lags like a ***** so you will be punished incredibly if the Kirby dodges it.

As I said doable, but who has the advantage there?

I normally resort to good D-Tilt spacing and just baiting punishes from my opponent to get my own punishes. Doing dash dances and then hitting Kirby's foot with an attack if he uses a tilt or just baiting out a grab and then punishing with my own, etc. But this has nothing to do with Mewtwo or Kirby, this a: "Me vs my Opponent" kind of thing. The fact that I have to rely on mindgames to actually play the matchup shows that it isn't exactly an "easy" matchup.

But maybe you have a different solution to this that I haven't thought about. I haven't honestly given it much thought. I would always win against my Kirby friend and I don't know any other Kirby's so it's not like I know every single scenario the matchup has to offer.

Never said the MU was easy.

Kirby just simply doesn't have anything to make Mewtwo fear him. You keep mentioning Kirby's down tilt as if it negates everything Mewtwo has but it doesn't. Mewtwo can combat that playstyle.

Confusion has enough reach to grab Kirby without being hit by his down tilt. Sure, if you stand right next to Kirby, he's going to hit you with down tilt, as that happens with almost every character.

It's clear that we won't really agree on this. I was just giving you insight on the MU, since you wanted to know why people think Mewtwo beats Kirby.

 

[KieRanaRan]

Why do you think we win against DK, Ness and Greninja? Those seem to be rather negative matchups, especially Greninja.
Also, why do we think we lose to Ryu?

DK - HUGE hitbox. Play patiently and you'll rack up damage in no time.

Ness - Reflect one of his main approach options and his recovery PK thunder

Greninja - tbh this could well be a draw imho. Again, if you're able to neutralise Water Shuriken and read his approaches it usually (in my experience) ends up well.

Ryu - his recovery is deceptively good and the right player can trap you and abuse Mewtwo's inability to land well.

That's what I've experienced anyway.

 

[Aninymouse]

THIS THREAD SUCKS, PLEASE USE THE MATCH-UP DISCUSSION THREAD.

Also, Chiroz Mo433 from your arguments it seems that Kirby:Mewtwo is either 50:50 or slightly in Mewtwo's favor, but hardly convincingly so.

 

[420quickscoper]

DK - HUGE hitbox. Play patiently and you'll rack up damage in no time.

Ness - Reflect one of his main approach options and his recovery PK thunder

Greninja - tbh this could well be a draw imho. Again, if you're able to neutralise Water Shuriken and read his approaches it usually (in my experience) ends up well.

Ryu - his recovery is deceptively good and the right player can trap you and abuse Mewtwo's inability to land well.

That's what I've experienced anyway.

Just because you can rack up damage on DK doesn't mean much. He's a hard character to kill since our important kills moves don't kill him very early.

On the other hand, DK has a large grab and combined with his throw combos he could get a huge lead due to how light we are and how much rage he might have.

I don't like mentioning Mewtwo's weight, but with DK? Yeah, it's a big problem. You're going to get grabbed one time.

So the only way we can really get good kills without him getting to dangerously high rage is by edge guarding with back air.

It's a really rough matchup to be honest, your reason doesn't really... have anything to it.

I'll talk about the other ones later, but right now let me tell you about Ryu matchup.

Here are my reasons.

1. Ryu is forced to play our game and he has to approach which Ryu doesn't have many approach options.
2. He can't use Hadoken because of Confusion, also, FCSB goes through Hadoken.
3. Ryu is easily hit out of Focus Attack thanks to us having a lot of multihit moves.
4. Ryu is probably top 5 easiest to combo for Mewtwo thanks to his combination of weight and fall speed.
5. Jab-up tilt-up smash is a true combo on Ryu. He's under the threat of it at high percents and can't get close... oh wait, he's forced to approach so he has to take the risk and he'll very likely get hit by the setup.

 

[Chiroz]

Never said the MU was easy.

Kirby just simply doesn't have anything to make Mewtwo fear him. You keep mentioning Kirby's down tilt as if it negates everything Mewtwo has but it doesn't. Mewtwo can combat that playstyle.

Confusion has enough reach to grab Kirby without being hit by his down tilt. Sure, if you stand right next to Kirby, he's going to hit you with down tilt, as that happens with almost every character.

It's clear that we won't really agree on this. I was just giving you insight on the MU, since you wanted to know why people think Mewtwo beats Kirby.

Is it possible to play Kirby vs Mewtwo (Me playing Kirby and you playing Mewtwo?). I don't know how to play Kirby, I don't think I've ever picked him before tbh aside from wanting to check out an specific hat, but I would like to see how you handle the matchup.

THIS THREAD SUCKS, PLEASE USE THE MATCH-UP DISCUSSION THREAD.

Also, Chiroz Mo433 from your arguments it seems that Kirby:Mewtwo is either 50:50 or slightly in Mewtwo's favor, but hardly convincingly so.

I get that the actual matchup charts people are making are ass, but I think they drive more discussion than just speaking. I suggest we most this idea to the actual real thread and take it lightly.

What I mean is this: When someone says: "What do we do against Sheik?" - Regularly the answer is something generic and not very helpful, but when someone says: "We can definitely beat Mario" it makes a lot of people say: "WTF, how?", then a discussion is started either teaching us how to play against Mario or teaching that specific person why Mario wrecks us, at the end we all learn something.

What faster way to get all those "WTF, how?" Out of the way than everyone just posting +/- on a chart .

 

[Mo433]

Is it possible to play Kirby vs Mewtwo (Me playing Kirby and you playing Mewtwo?). I don't know how to play Kirby, I don't think I've ever picked him before tbh aside from wanting to check out an specific hat, but I would like to see how you handle the matchup.





I get that the actual matchup charts people are making are ***, but I think they drive more discussion than just speaking. I suggest we most this idea to the actual real thread and take it lightly.

What I mean is this: When someone says: "What do we do against Sheik?" - Regularly the answer is something generic and not very helpful, but when someone says: "We can definitely beat Mario" it makes a lot of people say: "WTF, how?", then a discussion is started either teaching us how to play against Mario or teaching that specific person why Mario wrecks us, at the end we all learn something.

What faster way to get all those "WTF, how?" Out of the way than everyone just posting +/- on a chart .

I'm down to do that. I can use either character, since I happen to main both of those characters. PM me your NNID or FC and we can play

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Ayyyyyy I revived a dead thread, now let's make this thread great!