Everybody's favorite topic, especially those who were part of the Brawl MU chart! Woo-hoo!
Having been part of the MU chart for Brawl and running MU discussions in the past, alongside writing more than a couple guides on MUs, I hate how most people approach MU discussions. I recognize that this is a ways off (maybe) but I would really like to get all the boards together on how to properly (in my opinion) approach MU discussions and would love feedback!
The biggest problem I see is that people don't look at things in a practical sense. Yes, it is possible to punish X on shield with Y if you're frame perfect. But many times that's not reasonable to accomplish. This is how theorycraft usually gets its bad name, imo, since people are approaching things with a very frame-centric, X beats Y, Z is safe on shield under ideal circumstances, A OoS punishes B (when they have all of a 1 frame window to do so), etc and it's nonsense.
The second biggest problem I see is how people look at consistency. Yes, in Brawl Marth’s fair is only -3 on shield and almost impossible to punish if done perfectly. Realistically, that’s not going to consistently happen. So the risk of doing such a “safe option” becomes increasingly less safe depending on your %age and the other character. So while there are some things in the game that you can assume to be done consistently (Falco CG in Brawl or Marth CG in Melee), a lot of other things can’t be assumed to be done correctly with such small windows and, as such, during MU discussions should be evaluated more realistically than they have been previously.
Basically, people employ really BAD theorycraft in discussions that should revolve around practical, GOOD theorycraft. Options and realistic situations >>>>>>"ideal circumstances" and things that assume one frame, or near one frame, reaction times.
The most important part of a MU discussion is, ignore numbers/MU ratios. Those don’t matter, they cloud judgment/cause bias, and detract the conversation from useful topics to “Well I think it’s 55:45 not 6:4” or wait are we doing ratios of W:L or ratio showing difficulty or are we doing the +/- system or blah blah. It’s stupid and useless and nobody should worry about the numbers. In fact, if a MU discussion is done well enough, someone who plays neither character should be able to come in, look at the summaries, and provide a good opinion of the MU numbers from the details provided. At the end of a discussion, when everyone (from both characters sides) agree on how to play the MU, that's when people should quantify the MU.
So, before contributing to MU discussions, or even reading any, it would be fair to assume that the people taking part would have a generally solid idea of how to play the character. That being said, unless the MU is SO EXTREMELY DIFFERENT from every other MU in the game, there’s no reason to go over your own character’s basic gameplay – how to approach, how you’re zoning, etc. Instead, start with how the opposing character is going to challenge your typical options and how far away/”unnatural” those options are to their normal gameplay. If the opposing character’s normal gameplay beats your normal gameplay, you’re probably dealing with a losing MU unless your character is absurdly flexible. What options does your opponent have that directly counter your normal game and how do you deal with each of those – for example, look at the first section here http://smashboards.com/threads/diddy-tips-and-item-tricks.309846/
While it does outline that X beats Y, it makes sure that it notes that only in very specific situations (e.g retreating nair vs sideB) while being very clear that under circumstances outside of those, it's not a good option to choose.
Next is figuring out what “weird” or unique aspects of the other character are there and how do you account for each one? Diddy Kong has bananas, Robin has tomes, DHD has delayed explosives and stuff. These aspects are different from normal projectiles (lasers) and swords/body parts and need special consideration. You should always be sure to include a part where it talks about how these options work and how you can use them to your advantage/what these unique things require the opponent to do (e.g. Diddy likes banana throws OoS so they’re more likely to shield in general while holding a banana, how long you have to be the aggressor on Robin until s/he can get Levin sword active again). Understanding the unique aspects of the other character will allow you to focus on playing the game/match instead of trying to play around the unique things.
Killing:
How are you going to kill? How are they going to kill you? Do they have kills out of grabs/throws that kill straight-up or from safe pokes? Are they going to be able to kill with aerials or are they going to have to hope they get a random smash in? And potentially most importantly, what are the killing “%age gaps”? For example, Fox usmash kills in Brawl/Melee around 100% so if you’re at 103% and Fox is shooting you with lasers, it’s not THAT serious since from 103-110 no new moves kill you (idk exact numbers, I’m just using them for an example). Just because you’re being hit doesn’t mean that you need to rush in. However, if Fox bair starts killing at ~120, lasers become an issue closer to that %age since that allows him additional ways of closing out a stock. Knowing when pokes and projectiles are and aren’t an issue with allow you to be able to play smartly, even at kill %, and either extend your life as long as possible getting in extra damage or frustrate your opponent into acting rashly.
Quantifying reads:
Yes, reads are player based. Yes, they can still be talked about in MU discussions. Characters have movement and options that can severely limit the opponent’s options. The more you limit the other character’s options, the easier it is to make a read. Additionally, once you make the read, how are you going to punish it? Are you limiting options in a way that your best punish is a Sonic bair? You can quantify that as being not particularly rewarding of a punish. If you’re snake, however, and your punish is a kill with utilt at 105% you can quantify that very differently. You could look at this as two separate sections (risk/reward of kill/punish options and the amount you can limit your opponent’s options if you don’t like the idea of quantifying reads). Just be careful to realize that this is entirely dependent on the characters involved and does not have ANYTHING to do with the players.
Movement:
This doesn’t get emphasized enough in these discussions:
How are you moving and how are they moving? Whose movement options are dictating the pace of the match and how? What options do each character have wrt platform movement? Movement is the core to smash and understanding movement intricately is exceedingly important.
This part is just basic MU stuff:
With Smash4 this is going to be slightly different as there seems to be much more focus on ground-based play, but historically most MUs have one character in the air a good bit more than other characters so understanding how to anti-air (AA) their options properly and knowing how to not to get AA’d yourself. Similarly, the general footsie game (tilts, walking, jabs, etc) are all basic parts of knowing the MU and are mostly intuitive as long as you know your spacing. Be sure to know your moves OoS and which of your moves you get the biggest punishes off of when your opponent hits your shield. Focus on knowing their most common options and the options they’re most likely to use to counter your normal gameplay. You shouldn’t need to discuss that Ganon’s fsmash is -87379465 on shield since Ganon shouldn’t be fsmashing you in a position where you can shield it. MU discussions should focus almost entirely on realistic gameplay not “ideal circumstances” or “well, in theory.” So if you have a move that is 12 frames OoS and the opponent has a move that is -12 on shield, that’s not a punish since it requires perfect reactions. Give everyone some leeway so that people don’t mess-up and get punished themselves for trying something that they can’t do consistently (esp in a game like smash where there’s arcs and angles and moving and stuff).
Then of course there’s normal juggling and edgeguarding discussion as well.
Don’t fall into the discussion pattern of trying to play out a MU through text or creating some stupid flowchat (“Well we can do X in that situation” “Well if you do X you’re open to Y” “Yeah, but in that case how we could just do Z which beats Y”). Understanding how to fight against normal gameplay and understanding how to fight against gameplay that counters your normal game is important but don’t get bogged down in “if, then” statements, just be aware of your options.
Let’s try to get all the boards on the same track this game and talk about MUs in a way that’s actually beneficial to all involved. Ignore number, focus on normal gameplay, how to respond, and general options. Flowcharts (outside of combos) are useless, “ideal circumstances” are useless. Stay within the realm of what is realistic.
That being said, it is very important to understand that Smash is a very deep game and as people get better what is realistic will change and at those times the MUs will change and need to be re-discussed, kind of. That’s the other benefit of being very option focused in a discussion – you can re-discuss very specific parts of the MUs without bring up all the unchanged aspects so that it’s continually evolving and growing instead of killing it and starting from the beginning.
A lot of this is likely intuitive to some of you but I'd really prefer not to see the stupid discussions that there have been in the past. Also, pardon bad grammar/phrasing/etc. Lazy and tired and stuff.
Ideal train of movement:
Discuss back here -> Create a shorter version as well -> Forward both to character board "leaders" -> Have board "leaders" run the discussions with the short version as a general guideline for everyone while having the more detailed version if anyone wants it (since people don't like to read after all).
Having been part of the MU chart for Brawl and running MU discussions in the past, alongside writing more than a couple guides on MUs, I hate how most people approach MU discussions. I recognize that this is a ways off (maybe) but I would really like to get all the boards together on how to properly (in my opinion) approach MU discussions and would love feedback!
The biggest problem I see is that people don't look at things in a practical sense. Yes, it is possible to punish X on shield with Y if you're frame perfect. But many times that's not reasonable to accomplish. This is how theorycraft usually gets its bad name, imo, since people are approaching things with a very frame-centric, X beats Y, Z is safe on shield under ideal circumstances, A OoS punishes B (when they have all of a 1 frame window to do so), etc and it's nonsense.
The second biggest problem I see is how people look at consistency. Yes, in Brawl Marth’s fair is only -3 on shield and almost impossible to punish if done perfectly. Realistically, that’s not going to consistently happen. So the risk of doing such a “safe option” becomes increasingly less safe depending on your %age and the other character. So while there are some things in the game that you can assume to be done consistently (Falco CG in Brawl or Marth CG in Melee), a lot of other things can’t be assumed to be done correctly with such small windows and, as such, during MU discussions should be evaluated more realistically than they have been previously.
Basically, people employ really BAD theorycraft in discussions that should revolve around practical, GOOD theorycraft. Options and realistic situations >>>>>>"ideal circumstances" and things that assume one frame, or near one frame, reaction times.
The most important part of a MU discussion is, ignore numbers/MU ratios. Those don’t matter, they cloud judgment/cause bias, and detract the conversation from useful topics to “Well I think it’s 55:45 not 6:4” or wait are we doing ratios of W:L or ratio showing difficulty or are we doing the +/- system or blah blah. It’s stupid and useless and nobody should worry about the numbers. In fact, if a MU discussion is done well enough, someone who plays neither character should be able to come in, look at the summaries, and provide a good opinion of the MU numbers from the details provided. At the end of a discussion, when everyone (from both characters sides) agree on how to play the MU, that's when people should quantify the MU.
So, before contributing to MU discussions, or even reading any, it would be fair to assume that the people taking part would have a generally solid idea of how to play the character. That being said, unless the MU is SO EXTREMELY DIFFERENT from every other MU in the game, there’s no reason to go over your own character’s basic gameplay – how to approach, how you’re zoning, etc. Instead, start with how the opposing character is going to challenge your typical options and how far away/”unnatural” those options are to their normal gameplay. If the opposing character’s normal gameplay beats your normal gameplay, you’re probably dealing with a losing MU unless your character is absurdly flexible. What options does your opponent have that directly counter your normal game and how do you deal with each of those – for example, look at the first section here http://smashboards.com/threads/diddy-tips-and-item-tricks.309846/
While it does outline that X beats Y, it makes sure that it notes that only in very specific situations (e.g retreating nair vs sideB) while being very clear that under circumstances outside of those, it's not a good option to choose.
Next is figuring out what “weird” or unique aspects of the other character are there and how do you account for each one? Diddy Kong has bananas, Robin has tomes, DHD has delayed explosives and stuff. These aspects are different from normal projectiles (lasers) and swords/body parts and need special consideration. You should always be sure to include a part where it talks about how these options work and how you can use them to your advantage/what these unique things require the opponent to do (e.g. Diddy likes banana throws OoS so they’re more likely to shield in general while holding a banana, how long you have to be the aggressor on Robin until s/he can get Levin sword active again). Understanding the unique aspects of the other character will allow you to focus on playing the game/match instead of trying to play around the unique things.
Killing:
How are you going to kill? How are they going to kill you? Do they have kills out of grabs/throws that kill straight-up or from safe pokes? Are they going to be able to kill with aerials or are they going to have to hope they get a random smash in? And potentially most importantly, what are the killing “%age gaps”? For example, Fox usmash kills in Brawl/Melee around 100% so if you’re at 103% and Fox is shooting you with lasers, it’s not THAT serious since from 103-110 no new moves kill you (idk exact numbers, I’m just using them for an example). Just because you’re being hit doesn’t mean that you need to rush in. However, if Fox bair starts killing at ~120, lasers become an issue closer to that %age since that allows him additional ways of closing out a stock. Knowing when pokes and projectiles are and aren’t an issue with allow you to be able to play smartly, even at kill %, and either extend your life as long as possible getting in extra damage or frustrate your opponent into acting rashly.
Quantifying reads:
Yes, reads are player based. Yes, they can still be talked about in MU discussions. Characters have movement and options that can severely limit the opponent’s options. The more you limit the other character’s options, the easier it is to make a read. Additionally, once you make the read, how are you going to punish it? Are you limiting options in a way that your best punish is a Sonic bair? You can quantify that as being not particularly rewarding of a punish. If you’re snake, however, and your punish is a kill with utilt at 105% you can quantify that very differently. You could look at this as two separate sections (risk/reward of kill/punish options and the amount you can limit your opponent’s options if you don’t like the idea of quantifying reads). Just be careful to realize that this is entirely dependent on the characters involved and does not have ANYTHING to do with the players.
Movement:
This doesn’t get emphasized enough in these discussions:
How are you moving and how are they moving? Whose movement options are dictating the pace of the match and how? What options do each character have wrt platform movement? Movement is the core to smash and understanding movement intricately is exceedingly important.
This part is just basic MU stuff:
With Smash4 this is going to be slightly different as there seems to be much more focus on ground-based play, but historically most MUs have one character in the air a good bit more than other characters so understanding how to anti-air (AA) their options properly and knowing how to not to get AA’d yourself. Similarly, the general footsie game (tilts, walking, jabs, etc) are all basic parts of knowing the MU and are mostly intuitive as long as you know your spacing. Be sure to know your moves OoS and which of your moves you get the biggest punishes off of when your opponent hits your shield. Focus on knowing their most common options and the options they’re most likely to use to counter your normal gameplay. You shouldn’t need to discuss that Ganon’s fsmash is -87379465 on shield since Ganon shouldn’t be fsmashing you in a position where you can shield it. MU discussions should focus almost entirely on realistic gameplay not “ideal circumstances” or “well, in theory.” So if you have a move that is 12 frames OoS and the opponent has a move that is -12 on shield, that’s not a punish since it requires perfect reactions. Give everyone some leeway so that people don’t mess-up and get punished themselves for trying something that they can’t do consistently (esp in a game like smash where there’s arcs and angles and moving and stuff).
Then of course there’s normal juggling and edgeguarding discussion as well.
Don’t fall into the discussion pattern of trying to play out a MU through text or creating some stupid flowchat (“Well we can do X in that situation” “Well if you do X you’re open to Y” “Yeah, but in that case how we could just do Z which beats Y”). Understanding how to fight against normal gameplay and understanding how to fight against gameplay that counters your normal game is important but don’t get bogged down in “if, then” statements, just be aware of your options.
Let’s try to get all the boards on the same track this game and talk about MUs in a way that’s actually beneficial to all involved. Ignore number, focus on normal gameplay, how to respond, and general options. Flowcharts (outside of combos) are useless, “ideal circumstances” are useless. Stay within the realm of what is realistic.
That being said, it is very important to understand that Smash is a very deep game and as people get better what is realistic will change and at those times the MUs will change and need to be re-discussed, kind of. That’s the other benefit of being very option focused in a discussion – you can re-discuss very specific parts of the MUs without bring up all the unchanged aspects so that it’s continually evolving and growing instead of killing it and starting from the beginning.
A lot of this is likely intuitive to some of you but I'd really prefer not to see the stupid discussions that there have been in the past. Also, pardon bad grammar/phrasing/etc. Lazy and tired and stuff.
Ideal train of movement:
Discuss back here -> Create a shorter version as well -> Forward both to character board "leaders" -> Have board "leaders" run the discussions with the short version as a general guideline for everyone while having the more detailed version if anyone wants it (since people don't like to read after all).
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