Match-Up Discussion #32! Squirtle, Ivysaur, Zard

[Onxy]

I think it's a 4/6 though. Minor things like Ivy's Bair comming out quicker than his Fair, Ivy's Dtilt comming out quicker than Marth's Dtilt, and Ivysaur out ranging Marth in general makes it a 4/6 to me. Charizard is good in all, but really doesn't have the equipment to stop Marth after he has started something, but it's still a 4/6 for the older reasons. Marth actually has more range than Charizard, but I guess that's why it's a 4/6 and not higher lol. If Ivy had good aerial speed, more damage on some attacks, and didn't have a tether, it would be like a 5/5, but I guess not. Lol.

 

[Steeler]

onxy you just described the reasons why ivy isn't as good as he should be lulz.

 

[Onxy]

I'm just saying that she has the equipment, but her recovery sucks balls, and so does her aerial speed. Her aerial speed is much more of an issue really.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I agree with the numbers, but I play a Marth pretty often and I want to voice a few of the things that concern them most. This is more "Don't be surprised by this" type stuff, not anything that's going to change the match-up:

Charizard can grab Marth out of Ftilt/Dtilt if he Shield cancels into both attacks and perfect shields. I always finds Marth's retreating Fair more effective versus Charizard, as its significantly more difficult to grab.

Ivysaur's the opposite. Fair is much easier to handle because of Bair, but the ground game hurts more. I've noticed I can break out of Dancing Blade's last downward hit (The green multi-hit one?) with Bullet Seed, and depending on the speed of Dancing Blade, between the first and second hits.

Squirtle's dead, but there's one thing I've noticed when I'm forced into this one. If I hold shield out of grab release, I always get a perfect shield on the Fsmash. Is Marth moving too slow or does that just always happen? Spike is consistent, though.

Marth is pretty prone to being grabbed repeatedly by Charizard. The only things that seem to be fast enough to hit before he grabs again are Dolphin Slash, jab, or Dancing Blade. If Charizard's shield grabbing, then he can easily get another grab out of this, especially on jabs and Dolphin Slash. Dancing Blade will eat through shield, but I really think Marth's best option is to just back-off/dodge.

And this should go without saying, but everytime Marth makes a mistake in move choice, you can pretty easily get a grab with Charizard. In my opinion Ivysaur's spacing is much harder to maintain than Marth, since Marth can be offensive while maintaining it, but Ivysaur really can't. You can keep him out, but thats going to come down to how well the Ivysaur can read the Marth. If you're trying to use Squirtle in this match...

 

[PkTrainerCris]

hi... im the guy who said that zard>marth on that thread... LOL
anyway, my actual thinking is that it goes more like neutral than disadvantege for zard, mainly because the both have nice spacing games( marth isnt just nice, its over 9000 ), charizard has decent range, some tippers too, and a great grab range, but marths spacing is crazy, the player who wins the spacing war has the upper hand, so if its down to player skill its neutral, but marth has an easier time spacing, so marth has his reasons to be at a little advantage

 

[Charizard92]

OK, remembering the time we discussed the match up with you guys (the Scars on the PT boards are still fresh), Here is what I remember:

Squirtle: Well duh, you guys got the advantage, Squirtle doesn't even have the range Marth has. Like I'll Say several times more, you own Squirtle

Ivysaur: Well, actually getting to him is tough (due to the fact that Ivy HAS a projectile to delay the inevitable), but it is pretty much smoother sailing once you reach him. The Projectile makes it less than hopeless, but it still is your advantage.

Charizard: The closest thing to Even when it comes to PT vs Marth. The Rock Smash, Flamethrower, Throws, and the weight prevents this from Being an onslaught, but Marth is slightly better (and by slightly, I mean enough to register).

OK, Marth is no longer top tier (in fact, only Meta Knight is top tier without a projectile, and he's broken), but he still creams us. We however, do have some leeway, due to the fact that we don't have any HARD counters in the top tier (mostly soft counters, but we still have to finish Dedede and ROB), there is elbow room for PT, but the low tier placement, and the rather small fanbase, that won't happen for a while.

 

[Mumble]

hi... im the guy who said that zard>marth on that thread... LOL
anyway, my actual thinking is that it goes more like neutral than disadvantege for zard, mainly because the both have nice spacing games( marth isnt just nice, its over 9000 ), charizard has decent range, some tippers too, and a great grab range, but marths spacing is crazy, the player who wins the spacing war has the upper hand, so if its down to player skill its neutral, but marth has an easier time spacing, so marth has his reasons to be at a little advantage

But does Zard's Rock Smash have higher priorty than Marth's Fair?
I'm just saying because sometimes the Rock Smash has gotten through a Fair or two of mine, but only with little bits and pieces of the rock.

 

[_Kadaj_]

What do you guys think about these match-ups

 

[Desire]

I think squirt is like,, beast. beasty grab but PHAIL range

i havnt seen any poke user in ages

 

[Pierce7d]

But does Zard's Rock Smash have higher priorty than Marth's Fair?
I'm just saying because sometimes the Rock Smash has gotten through a Fair or two of mine, but only with little bits and pieces of the rock.

Rock Smash pieces are non-fan-able projectiles (this means you cannot negate their hitboxes with an attack). They can be deflected. However, the main breaking of the rock is two hits, and it is not a projectile.

Fair completely outranges Rock Smash, and there is no priority on aerials (except maybe a few, like glide attacks) so at best, both attack will hit their targets. If thrown optimally, Fair will hit Charizard before the rock is broken, and Marth will take no damage.