Match-Up discussion #21: Zelda / Sheik

[Brinzy]

All I can really do is try to play a Wolf on WiFi, though if I do any playing, it'll have to wait for 30 minutes. I mean, he's pretty standard for me in terms of how I fight him, but I can't really define "standard." I'll stay Zelda only.

 

[TheWildcard]

eh wolf on wifi is dumb seeing how nair is good on wifi for wolf and shine actully combos.

i dont know anything about zelda only about wolf, i havent had any problems with her yet.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda Vs. Wolf?

Wolf is not zelda's easiest matchup. He has some effective aerials and nice, spammy moves that can make fighting him a pain... but he's no great threat.

Usmash is great against wolf. Not only does it reject his aerial approaches as well as punish him going airborne if you airdodge to the ground through him, it also chains to itself to wrack up a lot of damage early on.

Nayru's love is brilliant. not only does it reflect back his lasers at double speed, but it ALSO completely rejects his Fsmash if he tries to use that, tired of getting lasers reflected. True, din's doesn't really force him to approach unless it's a strage like luigi's mansion, but nayru's love stops him from forcing your hand too much either. If he doesn't have a damage advantage on you, he can't force you to be stupid.. and if you short hop nayru's at him, regardless of whether he tries to punish your hop with an other laser or his fsmash, you are completely protected.

Wolf's grab game ios not too terribly impressive, so it's really not much of a factor meaning, when he does approach, it'll have to be from the air or with a Fsmash (since his dash attack is so unimpressive.) Usmash and nayru's, as well as sheild grabs, can punish these approaches fairly well. Also, Zelda's Dsmash complete outspeeds him up close and kills him most of the time due to his recovery AND zelda out reaches him if he's not close.

So why would I say it's only a slight advantage for Zelda and not a huge one? Because once he gets an advantage YOU have to approach... and if he starts to juggle you,that sucks. his methods for keeping you away or up are pretty good if not properly countered. and his dsmash is fast... not faster than ours, but fast enough you NEED to expect it.

However, as long as Zelda is on her toes and keeps in mind when wolf is in an advantageous position to be careful, this should be a good matchup. Sheik has it better, sure, But zelda is capable of killing wolf on her own quite effectively... and if you pick lylat or luigi's then zelda is strongly favoured.

all in all: 55:45 Zelda doesn't sound too far off.

 

[TheWildcard]

well how should i say this..epics zelda is pretty good its just i can read him far to well and i know what to look out for from Mikey L. i just dont know what zeldas think, but i can tell when they are under pressure which imo gives me an edge.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

well how should i say this..epics zelda is pretty good its just i can read him far to well and i know what to look out for from Mikey L. i just dont know what zeldas think, but i can tell when they are under pressure which imo gives me an edge.

how does that prve that Wolf > Zelda though... it's not zelda's fault you can read your foes.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I agree that Wolf has the advantage. It's just disagreement between me and Sonic.

I pretty much think everything Zelda can do Wolf can do better (except for her smash attacks). He has better jab, better tilts, better reflector, better air game, better projectile. Her advantages are the insane priority and pokiness of her smash attacks.

 

[TheWildcard]

how does that prve that Wolf > Zelda though... it's not zelda's fault you can read your foes.

i never said zelda> wolf lol i said i just know what to do. and it dosent help that i have the advantage.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I agree that Wolf has the advantage. It's just disagreement between me and Sonic.

I pretty much think everything Zelda can do Wolf can do better (except for her smash attacks). He has better jab, better tilts, better reflector, better air game, better projectile. Her advantages are the insane priority and pokiness of her smash attacks.

directly comparing aspects of game play is NOT how you prove which side is advantaged in a matchup

 

[RyokoYaksa]

directly comparing aspects of game play is NOT how you prove which side is advantaged in a matchup

Then what is? Being able to outperform many of your enemy's strengths is a good sign that you have a leg up on them last time I checked.

Also, I wouldn't rate Sheik vs. Wolf any less in Sheik's favor than 7-3. Wolf is stupidly simple for Sheik once the easy to do ftiltlock -> Usmash KO is factored in. Zelda against Wolf is an uphill battle for Zelda as Wolf can camp her well and has fast and effective moves of his own, and you can bet your sorry *** that there will be camping if you're actually playing matches that matter. I would not advise using Zelda solo against Wolf for any longer than the one hit to KO him should you botch the chance to do so with Sheik.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Then what is? Being able to outperform many of your enemy's strengths is a good sign that you have a leg up on them last time I checked.

just an example: the fact that wolf has a better jab than zelda means nothing if you are never going to have a jab battle with the two of them...


... also swastika says wolf has a better reflector.... that's debatable.

I'm not saying that zelda v. wolf is as good as sheik v. wolf... just that it's not a bad decision. it's certainly a close matchup.

 

[Zankoku]

It means that Wolf has one more option (jab) than Zelda does.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

It means that Wolf has one more option (jab) than Zelda does.

yeah... but it's not the only way to judge a matchup.

let's hypothetically say that character A has a better jab and better tilts than charcter B... but that character B has better smashes.... but let's say that chacrter B has smashes that are SO much better that there's no reason to use anything BUT a smash on the ground... well then... it's irrelivent that character A has better tilts and a better jab because the two things being compared don't ever compete int he actual match.

besides Swastika's statement is iffy... wolf's only tilt that I'd say is any better is his Ftilt compatred to Zelda's.

his air game and projectile are better on the whole as is his jab... but Zelda has the better reflector, Zelda has the better tilts, Zelda has the better smashes.. though both chacrters have situations for their smashes.

regardless... it's all about how the matchup actually plays. It's not about who has the best tools... it's about having the best tools that actually matter in the way the match plays out.... so what if Zelda has a screwdriver and wolf has a power tool... it doesn't matter if the goal is to bake a cake and all wolf has is a fire pit compared to zelda's oven.

 

[Zankoku]

The goal is to KO the other character as safely as possible. I'd say if Wolf had more aerial maneuverability and better aerials, a good jab, a fast reflector, and a more spammable projectile, that gives him a pretty decent edge when it comes to a defensive game.

And a smart Wolf will play the matchup defensively because it's never smart to rush straight into Zelda's whatever.

 

[TheWildcard]

wolfs jabs are fast and send characters airborn. last time i checked zelda gets juggled hard by wolf, especially when you bait airdodges. and when the game is in the air wolf ***** zelda. this has been said by everyone so far.

So we all said wolfs air game is better, and zelda has better tilts and smashes.

now imo this matchup is all about can zelda hit wolf enough to matter? my thought is no because all wolf has to do is shield a smash attack jab to get her in the air then juggle from there.

If zelda can keep the game on the ground what can she really do? wolf beats out alot of zeldas approaches ON PAPER . so this tells me all zelda has on wolf is smashes aka finishers.

And a smart Wolf will play the matchup defensively because it's never smart to rush straight into Zelda's whatever.

very true i use lasers and shines to cancel anything zelda wants to throw at me

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If zelda can keep the game on the ground what can she really do? wolf beats out alot of zeldas approaches ON PAPER . so this tells me all zelda has on wolf is smashes aka finishers.

Zelda's Fsamsh and Usmash primarily rack up damage... AKA... not a finisher.



Yes... Wolf is **** hard for zelda if he can keep her juggled. I just don't think he can keep her in that compromising position long enough to tilt the matchup in his favour.... that having been said, I don't think Zelda can avoid it adequetly to put the matchup in her favour either.

 

[Zankoku]

If Zelda doesn't intend to finish with usmash or fsmash and her aerial game is clearly inferior to Wolf's, I have to wonder what you plan to KO with. utilts and dsmash?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If Zelda doesn't intend to finish with usmash or fsmash and her aerial game is clearly inferior to Wolf's, I have to wonder what you plan to KO with. utilts and dsmash?

uair will do it at ridiculously low damage.

Dsmash also kills pretty well

if it goes on long enough, Fsmash or even Usmash will eventually kill, thoguh that's not the best thing to be counting on.

her ligthing kicks are still completely useable. Just because she's not favoured in an all out aerial dogfight, that doesn't mean she can never pull out fair or bair.

she can also try to kill wolf via edgeguard. I just don't think the matchup really strongly favours anyone. Wolf NEEDS the momentum in order to have an advantage IMO. And I just don't think building up momentum should be required to have an advantage in any matchup in which you are "favoured"

 

[Zankoku]

He needs momentum to take full advantage, but he has a lot more and generally better tools to get things started than Zelda in the matchup.

By the way, gaining momentum was THE ENTIRE PLAN for Sheik to get an advantage on Marth in Melee, and I'm sure we can all agree who that matchup favored.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

By the way, gaining momentum was THE ENTIRE PLAN for Sheik to get an advantage on Marth in Melee, and I'm sure we can all agree who that matchup favored.

...Mew2King

 

[Zankoku]

One could argue Drephen, actually.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

He needs momentum to take full advantage, but he has a lot more and generally better tools to get things started than Zelda in the matchup.

By the way, gaining momentum was THE ENTIRE PLAN for Sheik to get an advantage on Marth in Melee, and I'm sure we can all agree who that matchup favored.

ah... good way to look at it. either way. I wouldn't call the advatage anything but slight in either direction... unelss you're on lylat or mansion in which case I'd say Zelda should have a pretty significant advatage.

I call the matchup even. It's not too impressive either way. and momentum is much harder to hold in brawl than in melee so it seems.