Match-up Discussion 10 - Marth

[Sky Pirate]

MARTH

Advantage/Disadvantage: -1​

So much better than he was in the games.
Ability to penetrate our defense and keep us offstage make him a deadly opponent.
How can we keep him at bay?​

We need the following information:​

-STAGES-
"Best" starters for Oli:
"Worst" starters for Oli:
"Best" counterpicks for Oli:
"Worst" counterpicks for Oli:

Notable "move beats move" situations:

Opponent's primary tools:
How we can deal with opponent's primary tools:

Anything else:
(This section includes gimmicks, minor notes, and anything else that isn't covered)

Don't restrict conversation to just these points.
These are just guidelines to help discussion.
Discuss!​

 

[Sky Pirate]

Note: I was going to find a funny image for Marth, but exposure to numerous yaoi-esque Marth images has killed my will to search.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's just not my sort of thing.

EDIT:
In my (somewhat limited) experience with Marth, the objective is to screw with his spacing and bait out laggy attacks.

- Fsmash/stutterstepped Fsmash are really useful, so walking is quite good.
Just spamming it doesn't win the match, it's just a tool. Other tools like pivot grab and Usmash OoS should be used as well.

- Edgeguard with a speed hug instead of tether and punish if he lands onstage.
Don't get stage spiked and be careful when speed hugging.

- I like to occasionally run in with a shield on a Fair (when they're advancing; it's difficult to describe the spacing) and Usmash OoS. They might start UpBing or using shield breaker when they get conditioned to expect this, though.

- Don't be a ledge magnet. It'll be hard as hell to get back on.

- If you eat a shield breaker, drop shield immediately. It won't break 90% of the time and it's better to take a hit or two than to take a fully-charged tippered shield breaker when your shield breaks.

- I know they love BF. Some like SV because it's easyish to platform cancel with Marth.
Any thoughts?

 

[Nike.]

Rich Brown plays Mike at alot of Socals biweeklys (In fact just last night lol). He knows the MU more than anybody.

Me and Denti went pretty close til after MLG Dallas. He learned how to space fsmash and pluck hax purples and now he ***** me

I'd say slight advantage marth like how it's listed but approaching you ****ers makes me want to choke puppies.

 

[Sky Pirate]

That's a shame. Rich rarely posts here.
I even sent him a PM politely asking to give his current view when we discussed Falco. Didn't even get a "no". :<

We have one Marth in Austin, but he's still kind of newish so I take anything he says with a grain of salt.
A while back, he mentioned two tools Marth can use against Olimar.

- IIRC, he said that Pivot grab can beat some of Oli's ledge options. This probably covers some of his landing options, too.
Searching the Marth boards yielded nothing on this subject, so I can't confirm its validity.

- Nair is supposedly good against us.
After searching the Marth boards for confirmation, I found a post or two confirming that Nair is good against us, but only that it beats our pivot grab.
Fsmash was not mentioned.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[Cracker1204]

I play Mr-R alot and this MU really is a pain in the ***, luckily for you guys you wont be facing him xD. purples really are key, even though marth can fair through them he usually gets hit. purples gets him in a bad position were you can followup or reposition yourself so if you have some time (which you probably wont against aggro marth) go get some purples.

Other than that don't be greedy with up smash Oos, if marth fairs you correctly (or nairs you) he will most likely up b after it, so if marth hits your shield (with good apcing) just keep shielding or roll away unless his fair is slightly misspaced you can try and get that up smash in there.

pikmin throw is useless ( unless with purple) don't use this move much in this mu.

when marth is using his double jump spacing and he's close to you try rolling behind him, you can get some free damage in, don't do this too much though because the good marths will predict. overal rolls are surprisingly good against marth though.

you can also try up b or uair but out of experience (ramins) marth tends to be just out of reach so dunno.

random up smash can be tempting but better not use it.


when you are at 0% and marth starts to do those grab combos into nair or something, jump away after the arial. i know jumping might sound dumb but airdodging (or fairing)away will most likely get you hit with another followup.

when you are on the edge marth can beat almost everthing we have by just spamming nair, so try to time your edgeoption good, the best one might be to jump (don't whistle or anything because that will get you punished). also instant return is very usefull.

vs marth you can also try occasionally dash to him and do a reatreating fair, it's rather safe and it might catch him ofguard.

If you can, pivot grab his approach and be really patient if marth won't approach...and keep moving around.


This MU is ****ed up, but if you have 2 or 3 purples you might have the advantage.

 

[RichBrown]

Stutterstep fsmash is the absolute key to this MU. It gives you the extra inch you need when Marth jumps in and fairs. Just dash away, the slightly charge an Fsmash. This concept alone is the reason I'm able to fight Marth now, this MU used to be one of my personal worst.

Olimar is NOT safe in his shield in this MU. Marth has too many shield ****** options. You gotta play this MU with a lot of bravery, and use shield as a secondary resort. We secretly outrange Marth, so feel free to slowly walk around and wait for Marth to do something, then pivot grab at the last possible moment.

I like to Dthrow-fair Marth, the quickly land and shield because they will usually try to fair after but it will be a poorly spaced fair in this situation.

Sometimes Marth will jump above Olimar and not do anything right away in an attempt to scare Olimar into his shield. So sometimes I'll meet Marth with a surprise fair.

If you're caught in the air, don't bother challenging Marth, especially if he is above you. Uair destroys everything we have so it's best to just try to whistle away and land. If you're offstage and he's more horizontal towards you, you can sometimes challenge with a fair of your own, since in this horizontal position they may try to wait for your dodge/whistle.

Mike and I played a REALLY close set this past weekend, I'll link it when it's uploaded. Really good stuff on both sides of the MU.

Oh almost forgot, if Marth is somewhat above you, feel free to meet him with a surprise Uair

 

[Blissard]

Grammar Nazi moment :O

The description in the OP, Ability to penetrate our defense and keep us offstage make him a deadly opponent." should either be:

His ability to penetrate our defense and keep us offstage makes him a deadly opponent.
or
His abilities to penetrate our defense and keep us offstage make him a deadly opponent.

 

[D Who?]

When you shield dancing blades, its a free grab after.
Or usmash after the third one.
Thats all I know.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Okay. Stages?

- Marth seems to like BF. Why? Should we ban it?

- BF is a given, but what other stages should we strike? What should we shoot for?

- I always shoot to CP Pictochat or FD now (in that order). Is this right or is there a better stage to take him to?

 

[Asa]

Um.....

Halberd?

 

[RichBrown]

For some reason I cannot function on battlefield, like in general. So I tend to strike it against Marth.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Um.....

Halberd?

Haha... You really don't sound too sure about this. =P

 

[Jiom]

I can't fall through platforms right so I have trouble getting up from ledge/landing on bf but I find it easy to keep marth in the air once you get him above you, i'd still say marth has a better advantage on bf though because of his pressure on us if we land on platforms, pretty sure we can't punish his uair from underneath us. Oh and I find myself getting hit by tipper f smashes a lot more on bf then other stages.

Once again I really think it comes down to personal preference but I actually don't mind lylat vs marth, I feel the yellows/purples along with the slight tilts/platforms help us more then they help him.

 

[V]

From my experience landing a fair/nair into jab is hard for olimar to punish if we space it so the jab tips. Jab in general seems good against olimar once we're inside your pivot grab range.

 

[Dnyce]

This is the best match-up discussion pic ever

 

[wwwilliam0024]

Battle field isnt bad for us, neither is it for marth.

I actually find Battle field great against marth, since we can use the platforms to our advntage, screwing up Marths landing and making us juggle him,but beware for he can do the same to us.

Final destination is good for us since marth is forced to approach us, damage will get! just try not to get gimped.

Halberd is actually very good for us

Really! in the first part of the stage (moving platform) theres a slight uphill where we can stall there with Fsmash + Pikmin toss, Marth doesnt approach that easily, its hard for him, and a good ol Purple will do the trick after 80 something %.

The last phase of halberd (ship deck) is a spam field for us! Marths hate this stage.